“If you don’t have those underpinnings of being anchored to something, it’s really difficult to do anything else. That’s just baseline sort of human functioning.”- Kellie Artis

In this episode of the Facilitation Lab podcast, host Douglas Ferguson converses with Kelly Artis, founder of Mission Identity, who empowers women through the Enneagram. The discussion highlights the transformative power of facilitation, particularly through Kelly’s experiences in the George W. Bush Institute’s Veteran Leadership Program. Kelly shares her journey into facilitation, emphasizing the importance of psychological safety, empathy, and deeper connections in group settings. She reflects on how effective facilitation goes beyond traditional teaching, fostering meaningful interactions and personal growth. The episode underscores the impact of creating safe spaces for dialogue and collaboration.

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About the Guest

Kellie Artis is a passionate advocate for high-achieving women, bringing nearly two decades of expertise in communications and personal development to her role as the founder of Mission Identity. As the Director of Communications at Virtual Veterans Communities (VVC), Kellie excels in supporting military-connected students who seek to advance in their careers and personal lives. A scholar of the George W. Bush Institute Stand-To Veteran Leadership Program, Kellie is dedicated to empowering women through leadership and community engagement. She has earned certifications as a Certified Narrative Enneagram Teacher and Professional Certified Marketer, leading workshops that promote self-discovery and growth. Her work has been featured on platforms like Fox News and Military.com, where she is recognized as a respected voice in helping women achieve their full potential.

About Voltage Control

Voltage Control is a facilitation academy that develops leaders through certifications, workshops, and organizational coaching focused on facilitation mastery, innovation, and play. Today’s leaders are confronted with unprecedented uncertainty and complex change. Navigating this uncertainty requires a systemic facilitative approach to gain clarity and chart pathways forward. We prepare today’s leaders for now and what’s next.

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Transcript

Douglas:

Hi, I’m Douglas Ferguson. Welcome to the Facilitation Lab podcast where I speak with vultures control certification alumni and other facilitation experts about the remarkable impact they’re making. We embrace a method agnostic approach so you can enjoy a wide range of topics and perspectives as we examine all the nuances of enabling meaningful group experiences. This series is dedicated to helping you navigate the realities of facilitating collaboration, ensuring every session you lead becomes truly transformative. Thanks so much for listening. If you’d like to join us for a live session sometime, you can join our facilitation lab community. It’s an ideal space to apply what you learn in the podcast in real time with peers. Sign up today at voltage control.com/facilitation lab, and if you’d like to learn more about our 12 week facilitation certification program, you can read about it@voltagecontrol.com. Today I’m with Kelly Artis, the founder of Mission Identity, where she empowers women to reach their full potential by utilizing the Enneagram as a powerful tool for self-discovery, personal growth, and leadership excellence. Welcome to the show, Kelly.

Kellie Artis:

Thanks so much, Douglas. I’m excited to be here.

Douglas:

Yeah, it’s great to have you. It’s always amazing to me to watch folks that are making these transitions into coaching practices and becoming solopreneurs and really empowering the way they think about work and taking control of their destiny, so to speak.

Kellie Artis:

Yeah, yeah. It’s wild and crazy and fraught with uncertainty, but yeah, it’s something to follow your passion, I think.

Douglas:

Well, it’s interesting you mentioned uncertainty. I always like to remind folks that most things are uncertain, and a lot of times we fool ourselves into thinking that there’s certainty or there things are knowable. It is like the safe little pod around ourselves that we think that is there. It’s not really an illusion for the most part when it’s there, and so if you become comfortable with complexity and chaos, life becomes more fun and more easy to engage with. Not easy, but easier,

Kellie Artis:

Right? Yeah. You’re less attached to it and you can just kind of flow. That’s the goal. Yeah. It’s almost like an entitlement. You’re like, things should be certain and they’re not.

Douglas:

Yeah, and I wonder how much that flow comes up in the work that you do with your clients when you’re coaching.

Kellie Artis:

Oh, I mean, it’s almost constant, right? It’s always like, okay, even the Enneagram as a tool in and of itself, which I’m sure we’ll talk more about later, it’s a professional and personal development sort of framework that you can use for self-discovery and inner observation, all of these things. But almost everyone I talk to is looking for the goal, right? Okay, how do we get there? How do I achieve it quickly? How do I do this more efficient? I’m like, no, no, no. The goal is to just allow and just kind of flow and be more okay with the flow and be less limited the pursuit of something. So yeah, I mean, it always plays a part. Is it achievable? Even saying is it achievable is like it’s kind of missing the point, right? It’s enjoyment, it’s contentment, satisfaction, all of that stuff. It’s a work in progress in my own life too. Plays, I don’t know what it actually looks like or what it means, but the pursuit and the enjoyment of the work is why I do it.

Douglas :

Awesome. Well, let’s take a little step back and look at the formative moments for you. As you were starting to realize facilitation was a thing there, skillsets and tools and the discipline around it, and I think it was the George W. Bush Institute of Veteran Leadership Program. I recall you saying that was the pivotal moment for you.

Kellie Artis:

Yeah. I’ve attended all kinds of things. I’ve attended facilitated workshops before and working sessions, and many of the various groups and nonprofits and organizations that I volunteer and work with. I’ve observed good sessions and not so great sessions. Some that I’ve walked away frustrated by and some that I was like, oh, that was really great, but never put it together that that was an actual sort of framework. I thought these folks were just particularly gifted and creative and being able to gather people and convene them in a purposeful way. When I was accepted into, yes, it’s the George W. Bush Institute’s Veteran Leadership Program. They do an annual cohort where they gather. There were 34 of us I think, for our class last year, folks that are working in military family and veteran spaces, so we aren’t necessarily all connected to the military. I happen to be, my husband has been active duty for 20 years now, but gathered all of us together for a five month leadership cohort, but the day one, first session, very first session, I was super apprehensive.

I don’t know where these people are all coming from. There’s a lot of imposter syndrome. The veteran folks who have served often, for those of us who aren’t veterans, feel like they kind of have ownership of this space so often, and just by nature of being a military spouse, I feel like I’ve always kind of had to elbow my way into certain conversations like, Hey, we’re here too. We have things to say. So anyway, I came in with all that apprehension and just really almost skeptical of how this was going to all work. Was I going to get anything out of it? Was I going to be heard and noticed, and oh, so quickly. All of that was allayed by nature of the fact that we had the most amazing facilitator I think I’ve ever experienced. This guy’s name is Todd Connor. He’s a veteran and super engaged in the veteran space, does amazing work in everything that he does, but one of his roles is as the facilitator for this specific program, and I was just in awe of being able to walk into a space and literally from the first 20 minute session we had realize we’re going to be well taken care of.

This container is well made, it’s protected. We can be vulnerable. There was psychological safety established almost immediately, and I know I was supposed to be taking part in it, but I was really doing my Enneagram five thing of stepping back and observing what was happening, and from that moment on, I was just like, it shifted my project that I was working on during the cohort. It just kind of gave me this awesome opportunity to sit back and say, wow, this is how you do complicated things, gathering really diverse groups of people and coming up with something great at the end. Wow.

Douglas:

Do you remember if there was anyone in attendance there when you were in observation mode? I’m just curious if you noticed folks that were especially moved by the experience that, because often that folks come into spaces like that and have never really witnessed good facilitation before.

Kellie Artis:

Yeah, yeah. I mean, yes, you can almost categorize personify different types of people. Who are the people that are going to jive with what they’re going to support the facilitator. There are people that are kind of dissenters in the back. They’re going to critique everything. This group was no different. We had all of that, but I feel like the people that would have otherwise not been as engaged, kind of just like, I’m here. I’m going to say my thing. I’m not going to ask questions. I’m only going to give comments. I want people to hear me and see that I’m here. I think it checked them really quickly. Oh, I’m expected to engage authentically. Just example, the very first group sort of table question that we practiced or were given was, Hey, everyone at your group write this down and then share with your table what’s one thing that people often get wrong about you.

I was like, that’s profound. That right there, you’re just laying bare. Your biggest insecurity in this really sort of just sneaky way. How do people misread you? So you’re being misread, obviously, I was misreading everyone in the room because I’m making judgements, but you’re able to then so quickly say, people get this wrong about me. And then you’ve developed empathy around the table for people who now have compassion for you about this thing that you’re self-conscious about and that you probably over project for, compensate for. Anyway, I just thought it was amazing. So in a way, it had us immediately leave all the egos at the door, and they were able to somehow kind of sustain that through every gathering. We talk about Priya Parker’s thresholds when you enter and leave the space, that was a very intentional thing that was done in order to remind us every single time that we walked into the room that we were convened in, that this is the way we’re going to behave. This is who we’re going to be. We’re not going to bring in all of our rank and labels and other sort of egos into the space.

Douglas:

That sort of thing is also really powerful when you might be judging the room, especially if you hear someone say something and it’s like, oh, wow, I totally thought that about them.

Kellie Artis:

Yeah, I was guilty on

Douglas:

Several counts. They’re explaining why that’s a wrong perspective, and then it really helps everyone start to maybe just observe and think a little more versus jumping to conclusions

Kellie Artis:

A hundred percent, and I mean, I loved being able to share mine. I never share that, and I was like, oh, people think I’m aloof, and I mean, I could be perceived that way, but I’m really just trying to take it all in. I’m overwhelmed by it all. I’m more of an observer, so being able to say that and like, oh, there’s so much more to you than what I’m seeing in the moment. I loved it. I thought it was a great practice.

Douglas:

Yeah, I mean, you mentioned the aloof thing. That’s one. That’s to the point I just made really powerful for connection across the group, not only for things outside the group, but in the group especially. So because if someone is thinking, well, she’s a little aloof, but then you say that, and then they realize, they start to realize, oh, wow, she is a processor,

Kellie Artis:

So

Douglas:

She’s absorbing things in a different way. They’ll just have a different perspective on you and a different level of empathy around who you are and be able to approach you in a more connected way.

Kellie Artis:

Yeah, I think so.

Douglas:

Did you notice any of that having an influence on how folks related or connected across the group?

Kellie Artis:

I mean, so quickly. Personal stories were laid bare. It didn’t just stop at a characteristic because of shared experiences of this type of convening of people who are all connected to the military at a certain point in their career. We’ve been through the past 20 years of global war, so there were really close to the surface personal stories that came out in that literal first hour of us being together. So not only did we get the high level, this is a misjudgment that people often have about me, but here’s some of the personal context that also plays into my passion, the thing that I’m pursuing and that I’m working on right now. This is why this is important to me because it’s touched me personally. So just again, so quickly, there’s just humanity and compassion that often I think, in other scenarios and other maybe less well facilitated types of convenings would take forever for that to come up. So because we just,

Douglas:

If even,

Kellie Artis:

Yeah, if ever, right? Yeah, exactly. So the shared sort of agreement that this is how we are not going to share this beyond the group. This is our space, and this should be sacred, and just putting all that out there, making that clear, I think gave us all permission to say, okay, we can handle it. This is a group that will support us. And I mean, again, the relationships were instantly founded and forged. I mean, I can’t imagine never not being in touch with most of my cohort members because we were able to just so quickly connect.

Douglas:

Yeah. So it seems like Todd’s approach really broke some barriers down, and I’m curious, how did that shift your perspective on what facilitation could be?

Kellie Artis:

I mean, I think I thought of it before coming into that experience, and then obviously after working with Voltage, I had this idea that a facilitator is just a teacher that maybe there’s some teaching methodologies that my families, I come from family educators, so it was like, oh, this is just a learning design sort of, I don’t know. It’s something that you could implement in a classroom and help people absorb the information better or to latch onto the content or promotes understanding or comprehension. Right after this, I realized that there was just so much more to it, that there was so much more that you can accomplish and agree to and move forward together with and co-create with people. And so having that experience, but then also sort of holding separately this struggle that I had been having and something that I’d been noticing through all of my work in self-discovery and self-awareness, a lot of things that I’ve never really felt or hadn’t really felt qualified to do and handle.

So here I am learning the Enneagram. I’m passionate about it. I know a lot about it, but there had always been this hesitation to step fully into helping other people understand it because I felt like I could mess it up for them. Or what if, God forbid, they share something really sensitive or emotionally complex with me that, and I don’t comfort them in the right way. I’m not a therapist. I don’t know if I can handle that properly without causing damage. I was just really nervous about it. After experiencing and learning some of the facilitation tactics and techniques and realizing it’s more about making sure people feel safe versus fixing anything or deciding anything or teaching anything definite. It’s mostly about the space that you’re able to create during that time, how that is protected and handled and how people feel when they leave it, when they enter, when they leave was so much more important than any of the content, any of the other stuff. So it’s purpose, it’s connection, it’s all of those things. So that’s how it shifted for me. And then, I mean, gosh, I overlay now everything, every meeting I’m in, why are we here? What’s our purpose? How are we entering, where are we leaving? I mean, literally every aspect of any of the work that I do has some sort of element of the facilitation techniques and practices that I learned.

Douglas:

Yeah, it’s so helpful to get those perspectives. And I’m remembering, you also mentioned feeling imposter syndrome, which is somewhat related to what you were just talking about, and I think you were talking about it from the perspective of when you showed up for the program and even I guess ideas in your head about not being a veteran, et cetera. And I guess what specifically shifted that? You talked about getting to a point where that subsided, and so what do you think were the critical pieces that were at play that helped you overcome that?

Kellie Artis:

There were a couple of speakers that had some, I thought profound things to say that I was able to latch onto and give myself permission to pursue relentlessly what I came in with as my passion, my project initially. So we come in and you start out with an idea of a project that you want to work on during the cohort. It’s important, but it’s not the most important thing. I mean, the projects are great and have, I mean, some people have full-blown nonprofits now because of their personal leadership project, but it’s the skeleton. It’s the structure that they put the teaching and the rest of the leadership instruction onto. So we have a capstone at the end, and then they follow up and see what kind of support is needed after you’re an alumni. But I came in with a project that I wasn’t super passionate about.

It was part of one of my day job work, and it made sense. It was good enough to have gotten me a spot in the cohort that’s a part of their application process. It’s like, what are you working on? But from the start, it was enforced through all of the activities and through all of our facilitated time that it needed to be something that you’re passionate about. How are you going to make an impact? And it can be making an impact on one person. It doesn’t have to be huge and broad reaching and solving veteran homelessness. It doesn’t have to be that big or grand, right? It could be literally making an impact in your world, in your sphere, in what you can. And I was like, well, this is who I am. I can impact the lives of people like me, people who’ve gone through things like me, using my personal story, using the ways in which I’ve kind of crawled out of stuff and made sense my life and how I’ve gotten where I am.

So being able to have that constantly reinforced from the facilitator, again, purpose, it was, this is why we’re here. Yeah, we’re going to teach you all these techniques and we’re going to teach you how to do data measurement and collaboration and all of these things, but for the most part, we want to make sure that your why is always being answered. So that sort of being the central focus of everything that we were exposed to really helped reaffirm for me what it was that I was there for and how much I belonged, how much I was meant to be. The one speaker, he was an astronaut, and he came and he was talking. He gave the story. I’d literally written in my journal, by the way, another facilitation practice that we were encouraged to do every morning during our Todd Time, set some intentions, write some agreements with yourself for today.

And then at the end of the day, we would go back and reflect upon them like, okay, did you meet your intentions for the day? One of my intentions was like, I’m going to hold onto things less tightly. I’m going to hold things a bit more loosely and just see what emerges. So there was an astronaut that gave us a story about how he was doing his first spacewalk, and he was nervous about it, and before he went up on the shuttle and everything, a former astronaut wrote him an email and all it said was, loosen your grip. And so he tells this whole story about how he’s outside on the ladder thing and freaking out and didn’t want to let go, and it was paralyzed scary, and he remembered the email from the guy, and that’s all it said was, loosen your grip. So he just kind of let go and was able to have this amazing experience that he shared with us. And I was just like, well, that was for me. So not to be too dramatic about it, but that was, I think, the moment that’s like, okay, not only do I need to loosen the grip of who I think I am and whether or not I belong and whether or not this is what I’m supposed to be doing, there’s so much more expansiveness out there and opportunity if you just kind of just go with it.

Douglas:

And after that first session, you mentioned that you were so curious about what was happening and what Todd was up to you, and you were in that observation mode that you mentioned that you actually managed to get yourself on the seat next to him on the bus ride to dinner. Did that spark the original interest in Priya Parker’s

Kellie Artis:

Work? Oh, it totally did. It was the first thing you said. I was like, I know whatever you just did was amazing, and everybody’s raving about it, but you’ve got something. You’ve got a framework. You know what you’re doing. You’ve learned this. Tell me everything. Again. I’m an Enneagram five, so it’s all about acquiring information and knowledge. So I was like, how can I research this? And he was like, okay, well, so he gave me a couple of resources, and then we got to talking about, yeah, definitely Priya Parker. I ordered it on Amazon while we were driving to dinner, and as soon as I started reading through, I was like, oh, yeah, that was that exercise. That was that. So it was neat to not only see it illustrated in the book, but then also, oh, I had that experience. I know exactly what was happening there. But yeah, and then that’s when I started rethinking my project too. It was like, not only am I interested in how you did what you did, I think that would’ve just been cool anyway. But also, I can absolutely see applying this to all of my Enneagram work, because most of it revolves around group classes, workshops.

And again, back to that apprehension of I had been really nervous to convene a bunch of people, and what if they asked me a question I don’t know the answer to. I was hung up on the knowledge part of it and the expertise versus how I would just like to be able to build a safer container for people. Maybe I could just be the person to provide the space and some guidance, but there doesn’t need to be definite. It’s not math. There’s not an equation that’s either true or false. It could just be exploration. So yeah, that really helped just open my perspective on it a lot.

Douglas:

I love the curiosity. It’s such a facilitator’s mindset, isn’t it? Wanting to know how behind the experience.

Kellie Artis:

Yeah. Yeah. It was a little meta and probably annoying. That was not the point. They didn’t convene us to learn how to be facilitators, but that’s what I took away from it. I was like, ah, this could be so useful in almost any application. So

Douglas:

Well, they were simultaneously helping you dive into your why, and I would argue that if that was resonating, maybe it was exposing some deeper insights into that. Why. So I don’t know. I don’t know if it’s all that adjacent or different than what they had planned.

Kellie Artis:

True. No, that’s true. I mean, it’s definitely a realm of leadership to be able to guide a group and do that safely. And yeah, no, it was just overall great experience. I loved what I learned about all of the things about leadership and running big businesses and all of the things. But I think, yeah, that was definitely my takeaway.

Douglas:

It’s not uncommon for students to come in having already read Priya Parker’s book. What was it like for you as one of those folks who had read it previously, to go through it again with some targeted focus and also in discussion with the cohort about the text?

Kellie Artis:

I thought it was great because it was another repetition of seeing it in practice, how it works. It wasn’t just like this anomaly that I, maybe there was something just super, super duper special about Todd. There is. He’s amazing. But it wasn’t like uniquely, he’s the one person that’s born to do this work. No, it’s like it’s work that we can all adapt and use in our lives. So that was encouraging, but then, gosh, just being able to be exposed to people who also were in on it, you know what I mean? I don’t know. Again, not having not been exposed to this as a discipline, essentially, being able to then kind of say, Ooh, what are you guys doing over here? This is kind of cool. And then not only what are you guys doing and how are you doing it, but how are you applying it?

And all of the different industries and ways in which people work. I came into the voltage cohort thinking like, well, I’m not a facilitator and I’m not trying to be a facilitator. I’m not going to put a LinkedIn post up and say, Hey, hire me to come facilitate anything you want, just come. That wasn’t my intention or purpose, and I was a little worried that that’s what I was walking into, that it was going to be a bunch of people who are just professional facilitators. I mean, I’ve done this before too, with even my Enneagram training. I took a whole course on therapists how to be an Enneagram and for therapist. I’m not a therapist, but I’m like, how are you guys using it? Because this feels like something that would be helpful to know, just exposure. So anyway, came in very quickly realized that I was in the right place. Once again, that curiosity did lead to something really profound and helpful. Okay, you can be a facilitative anything. So that was one of the biggest, the coolest things for me to see, especially overlaying everything that Priya had talked about in her work, and then seeing it executed, hearing about how people execute it, hearing about the cool outcomes of sessions or different techniques from everyone in the room, from all kinds of industries, which is really cool.

Douglas:

And after learning some of this stuff, you started to integrate it into your work with military connected families and veteran students. What were some of the first changes you made and what sort of impact did you start at sea?

Kellie Artis:

Oh, gosh. I mean, the top thing is just stop starting meetings with admin. Crap. Nobody,

Douglas:

Never start a funeral with logistics.

Kellie Artis:

Yeah, logistics. It was just like, I always hate that. I mean, I’ve always hated that, but I do it. It’s one of the very first things like, no, you need a hook. You need something to grab people’s attention, and why do I deserve your time right now? Why are you giving me an hour of your life or however long? And how do I prove to you that I will use that hour well, and it’ll be well spent. So stop doing the logistics, the agendas. Setting up agreements I think has been really helpful just for me personally, for whatever reason, that has helped me step into my role more confidently. I can be really transparent about my insecurities. I mean, frankly, usually I used to do this as, I don’t know if I’m the right person to teach you all this, but here we’re going to start doing all this self-deprecating stuff.

And I realized, oh, no, we don’t have to do that, and I don’t have to sacrifice my credibility because of my insecurities. We could just all come to some group conclusions and some agreements that this is the goal. This is what we’re trying to achieve this session. I’ll do my best to guide you guys as long as you’re doing your best to participate and learn. So that helped me kind of shake off some of the issues that I’ve had around leading groups. But yeah, just being able to keep things fresh, keep it active, seeing when there’s some energy needed, not just getting stuck in the content, which is what I typically have a tendency to do, and then making sure that it anchors somewhere. Whatever the experience is, not only are we clear about what we’re trying to accomplish, but then does it resonate? Do you leave with something? Then why did I take your hour if it doesn’t? So having those things top of mind, I think just result in just such better experiences for everyone.

Douglas:

Yeah, it’s interesting. Working on the agreements can be such a nice focal point to help with intention as you’re designing the session as something as simple as thinking about, well, how do people need to show up? I mean, you can’t answer that question unless you’re really clear on your purpose

Kellie Artis :

And

Douglas:

You’re really clear on the conditions and the scenario you want to unfold in the space. And I think the number one reason so many people get things wrong or stumble is because they haven’t spent enough time thinking about that. And so to your point, the agreements are a great little hack to here, just three to five things to write down. But in order to write those down, you got to think about what’s the purpose and how do I want people to be,

Kellie Artis:

And what are you stepping away from? So I’ll give you just a quick example from my world. So in the military spouse world, so when we say military spouse, we mean we’re married to someone actively serving. A lot of military spouses have also served, but most of us haven’t, and we’re predominantly female. It’s like a 94% female ratio whenever you gather folks in the military. I mean, service members wear their last name on their chest and everyone knows what that last name is and what rank is associated with that. And just by nature of us being humans, that crosses over into the spouse world as well. So one thing that I realized really early on when particularly working with folks who are attached to people that have rank, no, they don’t have the rank themselves, but they’re still married to that person with rank. So there’s still these hierarchical things that we have to navigate really quickly. I was like, I know you guys may know each other, but I want no last names. We are not our service members. I want first names only. There will be no last names. No asking, what does your husband do? That’s not a question that is valid in this space. We don’t care. We care, but we don’t care.

It’s kind of like the shortcut for any conversation when you meet someone who’s this world. So that not only kind of alleviates the pressure from the folks who are attached to higher ranking service members, but it frees up some space for folks that aren’t to be able to be authentic and true. But then a part of that agreement also is that we don’t leave with anything that we’ve talked about here. This stays here. So being able to say, no last names really clearly, at least plants that seed of y’all, we’re not going to do that. We’re going to pretend like we’re all on the same page. We’re all on the same playing field. We’re all dealing with the same struggles, and then we can work on ourselves from there.

Douglas:

I remember you talking about revamping the veteran student orientation sessions to focus more on community building rather than, I guess cramming information, I think was how you refer to it. And so what were some of those specific changes you made?

Kellie Artis:

Yeah, so we help, in my day job, I help universities stand up their veteran support services. So part of what my role is, and my self-declared purpose as the digital community manager is to make sure students feel engaged, connected, and supported. Because if we have those three things, we have a successful student experience, and then we also have a successful career experience on the backside of school, which is everyone’s goal. We want student success, and we want ultimate mission success for those veteran students who are transitioning by way of college into the civilian world. Veterans are accustomed to being given, they call it death by PowerPoint. That’s

Douglas:

Getting briefed to death.

Kellie Artis:

Briefed to death. So anytime you say you have to come to this mandatory orientation, they know they already have a preconception of what that’s going to be. They’re super excited about it because it is just like, Ugh, here’s the number for this, and here’s, then it’s boring and rote and whatever, but however the information is important and they need to have it. So what do you do? So what we’ve shifted a lot of that session, and it’s an hour, I point to places where they can find the information, but we spend most of the time connecting. So first and foremost, we have a session called Transitioning from service to school where it’s a panel. I’ve recorded it, so we kind of play the same thing over, but it’s a panel of students who talk about the things that they’re nervous about and what they were worried about and how they’ve tried to adapt certain techniques to be able to counter that fear and that apprehension. So just right out the gate, we’re doing that same practice of what do people get wrong about you? Let’s call out the elephant in the room. Are y’all nervous? You should be. It’s hard. Let’s say we’re nervous because this population has a real difficult time asking for help. It’s just part of the nature of military service. You are either told to do it, you figure it out. There’s not a lot of

Seeking help. So we want to go ahead and squash that right out the gate. This is what we’re here for. We exist to help you, and we’re going to call you and we’re going to proactively try to help you, but we also really want you guys to get accustomed to calling us too. It makes our day, when you call us, it actually makes me really happy when you send me an email. So establishing that we spend a lot of time meeting our team. I’m really emphatic about people seeing faces. We’re not just on the phone and we’re virtual. So yeah, it’s going to be a lot of zoom, but here we are, us, we’re besties. Now you’ve seen us in orientation, and then we do breakouts where we have cool fun prompts where people can talk in small groups about what it is that they’re nervous about or what they wish they had known before they left service, or it could even just be little icebreakers, energizers, things like that. So again, we spend probably 30% of the hour not doing anything traditionally considered productive, but to me, it just feels so much more important that they have made a connection with just anybody, one other person in our virtual hallways.

Douglas:

What kind of shifts in energy that you notice?

Kellie Artis:

Well, they’re so much more engaged with our office. I mean, again, we do have a physical office in one of our campuses, but for the most part, it’s a virtual sort of, we’re here if you need us because they’re not able to walk by and come grab donuts when we have them out. So there’s often a lot of like, oh, hey, if we are on campus and do run into people, I’ve gotten like, oh, you do the orientation or you post the newsletter, or, I know I don’t know them, but that’s okay. You can be internet famous for your community, and that’s totally fine. It means that they’ve seen my face and I’ve gotten across some way that makes them know and trust me in the same way that people do business with folks online. I want the students to feel like they have advocates and allies and friends and friendly faces that are helping them navigate the system.

There’s also just there’s more of an eagerness to help other students. So we’ve never had an issue onboarding veteran ambassadors, which is a work study program that we work with the VA with. I mean, often there’s a wait list of people who want to become an ambassador because they get exposed to us so early on, and the ambassadors during that orientation that they then want to step up like, oh, I could do that. That sounds awesome. You get to meet all the people and help people and serve in that way. So there’s, I don’t know, I’m not going to say it solved all has solved all the problems. Everyone gets an A and graduates on time and all the things, but at least while they’re here, they feel like they’re a part of something and they’re a part of a community and they belong.

Douglas:

Yeah, there’s that belonging. I was thinking that earlier when you were talking about the, or I asked you about imposter syndrome and you went into a story about the NASA loosening your grip and just connecting into the content and also just the work that Todd was doing to make people feel comfortable and connected. I mean, it struck me as all of that was creating a sense of belonging, and that once you felt like you belonged, the imposter syndrome wasn’t even a consideration.

Kellie Artis:

Well, now that you’re saying it, Douglas, that’s like, yeah, I mean, if I were to think back and summarize my experience as a military spouse, even, we belong to a larger community. I still belong to the town and the community that I live in. I belong to my family, et cetera. But when we overlay all of the dynamics of our lifestyle, so the frequently moving and the shifting jobs and spending seasons of really having to intensely focus on your nuclear family, your two little kids while your husband’s deployed, that sort of thing, you can, I have noticed falling out of touch or out of feeling like I belong to things before and just how disorienting that is and how it’s just not a comfortable place to be, and no one deserves that. I mean, we all deserve to be in community, some sort of community. So I do think that that subconscious maybe consciously drives a lot. It

Douglas:

Really rocks your confidence.

Kellie Artis:

Totally. And your identity. I mean, it’s the core of who you are. If you don’t have those underpinnings of being anchored to something, it’s really difficult to do anything else. I mean, that’s just baseline sort of human functioning. So for people to ever feel like they didn’t have that, and we know our society in general is becoming more detached from each other and more detached from their communities and feelings of loss and belonging are resonating high, particularly for the community that I serve, the military spouse community, those are some of the top complaints that people have. When asked about would you recommend service to someone you love, or are you satisfied with the military lifestyle? When people say no, those are the key things and the key reasons. So there’s definitely a desire and a void there that I think if we’re all working towards some sort of goal that includes belonging in some way than we’re doing good for society.

Douglas:

And I think that’s a nice transition into the work you’re really focused on now. And that brings me to the work you’re doing now, which came up briefly. We talked about mission identity and the work you’re doing there, but specifically, I’m curious about the Enneagram insights and how you’re working with spouses and what you are looking forward to as you continue to grow that business and help folks with identity and belonging or any of these other challenges that might be well suited to the work that you’re doing.

Kellie Artis:

So with Mission Identity, I am really passionate about helping, particularly women. I am expanding my view of who I want to help serve into more the woman entrepreneur space. The professional woman who, like myself, have gotten to a point in our careers where it’s just like I’ve gotten here. I’ve just hustled and done the thing and gotten to a certain point, but now I’m reflecting. I’m not going to call it a midlife crisis. I don’t like that. But reflecting on who am I now, who am I, and what does this need to look like for the rest of my life? It’s a moment to just slow down and sort of investigate who we are, where we’re going, and what’s the impact I want to leave behind. So we’re using the Enneagram as a framework for self-discovery to help make sure that we are truly understanding who we are and the motivations behind what we do and how we feel about things, how we perceive the world around us.

And the Enneagram provides a really profoundly helpful framework for that work. So once we understand who we are and we have a strong sense of self and identity, then we can move into things like purpose and then combining self identity or self identity and purpose together within left with our perception of reality. That’s whether or not we’re seeing the world clearly, whether we’re experiencing what we’re experiencing in a way that is connected to reality or maybe distorted based on some of the things that we’ve been limited by in our experience or from our personality. And then from there, I mean, gosh, there’s contentment in that, right? There’s success, there’s freedom, and then there’s where the impact can really happen. So working with women who are mid-career farther along, et cetera, just to provide, again, the space for them to do that exploration safely without any of the ego or worried about the image or the pretense.

So I want to be able to provide that opportunity for them, provide some context and some teaching, but really do this invitation into the self-discovery in community with others. They’re, again, group cohorts. I’ll still be focusing a lot on military spouses sort of as an offshoot of mission identity. The military community is near and dear to my heart, and I am so excited to be able to provide group training exercises for them, but it actually functions as more of a piece of my story and a piece of my credibility versus now. I mean, really my inspiration into doing the work that I do, and hopefully it will inspire others, but always here for anyone who’s interested in doing the work of personal discovery and growth,

Douglas:

It’s such a strong passion for empowering others, especially women, to clarify and build confidence. So I’m just kind of curious, what would be a dream outcome for you as you continue this journey?

Kellie Artis:

Oh, dream outcome. VP Harris recently said that there are not a lot of women out here aspiring to be humble. And that quote resonated with me so deeply because I think for so long, I had convinced myself that being humble was the way to be and not the way I wanted to raise my daughter, by the way. However, we limit ourselves in so many ways and we’re often the worst offenders in capping our potential, and I can’t wait to be able to look around and see more often than not women who are not only not aspiring to be humble, but who are stepping into their greatness and their power, and just changing the world, taking control, and showing us all what it means to love and to live with purpose and to live in community. Just, yeah, there’s going to be bumps along the way, and we’re still very much learning how to do this as women. But yeah, I think that really intangible and hard to measure, but I think even seeing that on a small scale is my dream.

Douglas:

Kelly, it’s been such a pleasure chatting with you today. I could keep talking for a long time, but we have to cut it off here. So before we go, I want to just give you an opportunity to leave our listeners with a final thought.

Kellie Artis:

Be kind to yourselves. There’s a mantra in the school that I studied with for the narrative Enneagram, and it talks about having grounded presence and compassionate curiosity. I think those are valuable tenets that I try to live by and are just so important.

Douglas :

Such a pleasure. Kelly. Thanks for joining me on the show today.

Kellie Artis:

Thank you.

Douglas:

Thanks for joining me for another episode of the Facilitation Lab podcast. If you enjoyed the episode, please leave us a review and be sure to subscribe and receive updates when new episodes are released. We love listener tales and invite you to share your facilitation stories. Send them to us on LinkedIn or via email. If you want to know more, head over to our blog where I post weekly articles and resources about facilitation, team dynamics and collaboration voltage control.com.

The post How Can Effective Facilitation Transform Personal Connections and Group Dynamics? appeared first on Voltage Control.

“Take that risk, take that step forward. Don’t think about it, just do it. Sometimes you just have to take that step, and by doing that, my life changed completely.”- Tony Toto

In this episode of the Facilitation Lab Podcast, host Douglas Ferguson converses with Tony Toto, a facilitator at the Outdoor Wisconsin Leadership School. Tony shares his journey from real estate to facilitation, emphasizing the transformative power of adventure-based team-building activities. He discusses the importance of physical and emotional safety, non-verbal communication, and the role of conversation in fostering trust and collaboration. Tony also reflects on his continuous learning process and the impact of his work on participants. The episode underscores the significance of taking risks, seeking mentorship, and the lasting benefits of experiential learning.

Show Highlights

[00:05:11] First Steps into Facilitation
[00:05:58] Advice on Taking Risks
[00:08:04] Building Trust through Activities
[00:12:11] Stories of Growth and Confidence
[00:16:25] Creativity in Facilitation
[00:30:14] Community Support in Growth
[00:34:44] Common Mistakes in Facilitation

Links | Resources

Tony on Linkedin

About the Guest

Tony has facilitated more than 300 groups and positively impacted thousands of lives in his 12+ years as a professional facilitator. He takes a Facilitative Leadership approach with every group he works with. This approach opens lines of communication for all participants to engage in robust conversation, idea generation and creates a psychologically safe space for collaboration to thrive. Tony enjoys providing guidance and direction for groups to achieve their desired outcomes based on their purpose of why they’re gathering for a session.

About Voltage Control

Voltage Control is a facilitation academy that develops leaders through certifications, workshops, and organizational coaching focused on facilitation mastery, innovation, and play. Today’s leaders are confronted with unprecedented uncertainty and complex change. Navigating this uncertainty requires a systemic facilitative approach to gain clarity and chart pathways forward. We prepare today’s leaders for now and what’s next.

Subscribe to Podcast

Engage Control The Room

Voltage Control on the Web
Contact Voltage Control

Transcript

Douglas:

Hi, I’m Douglas Ferguson. Welcome to the Facilitation Lab podcast, where I speak with Voltage Control Certification alumni and other facilitation experts about the remarkable impact they’re making. We embrace a method agnostic approach so you can enjoy a wide range of topics and perspectives, as we examine all the nuances of enabling meaningful group experiences. This series is dedicated to helping you navigate the realities of facilitating collaboration, ensuring every session you lead becomes truly transformative. Thanks so much for listening. If you’d like to join us for a live session sometime, you can join our Facilitation Lab community. It’s an ideal space to apply what you learn in the podcast in real time with peers. Sign up today at voltagecontrol.com/facilitation-lab. And if you’d like to learn more about our 12-week facilitation certification program, you can read about it @voltagecontrol.com.

Today I’m with Tony Toto at Outdoor Wisconsin Leadership School, where he facilitates team building programs for all age groups from grade school through graduate school to executive groups. He is currently developing a facilitation business that will service not only team building programs, but product ideation, design sprints, creativity, innovation, meeting facilitation, and strategic planning. Welcome to the show, Tony.

Tony:

Thank you. Thank you for having me, Douglas. I appreciate your time and the ability to do this.

Douglas:

Absolutely. It’s my pleasure to chat with alumni and hear the amazing stories you all have to tell. So looking forward to really diving in. And for me, it’s always really fascinating to hear how folks got their start. So you’ve had a 10-year journey as a facilitator in adventure recreation. I’m curious, how did it all start? How did you get bit by the facilitation bug?

Tony:

I got into facilitation in a different way, I started off as a volunteer. Back in 2008, I was doing mortgages. I was in the real estate industry, and the industry went belly up with the financial crisis and I was lost. I didn’t know what to do with myself. I was kind of broke out of money. I had to have a family member take me in and rebuild myself to the point where I wanted to be. So I was out of a job for about three years because the economy was bad. I wasn’t sure what I wanted to do. So after three years, I was writing down a whole bunch of information on a sheet of paper trying to decide what excited me, what encouraged me, what I wanted to do for a new career. I just couldn’t find my place. I was lost. I was absolutely lost.

Towards the end of 2011, I said to my mom, “Hey mom, I’m thinking about volunteering at the Boys and Girls Club of America. Maybe that will get me into a new field, a new job.” And she said, “Go for it.” So I applied for the volunteer over there and I got accepted. I was in a teen center on a three-month contract. Towards the end of my contract, I looked down on the table and I saw a brochure. On that brochure had a ropes course, and my eyes exploded. My jaw dropped. I’m like, oh my gosh, I did this back in college. Through my recreation program at Western Illinois University, our instructor took us… This is an outdoor recreation class, he took us on a team building weekend. He took our class divided into three different groups, and one weekend at a time took our group out to that course.

And during that time, we had to work together using those leadership skills that we talk about, the problem solving, the conflict resolution, communication. We had to solve these activities together as a group, and I never forgot that experience and how amazing it was for me personally. So when I saw that brochure I said to myself, I want to facilitate this. So I went home. I got on the computer and I typed in ropes courses, Kenosha, where I live in, Kenosha, Wisconsin. And a site came up west of my house about 50 minutes away. So I went to their website and I went to the contact information page and I sent a message to the director. I said, here, “My name is Tony Toto. I went to Western Illinois University. I have a degree in recreation parks and tourism administration. Do you accept volunteers?” And I sent it off.

A few days later, I got a response from the director and he said, “Oh, you’re a McGowanite.” Dr. McGowan was my professor that took me out on that team’s weekend back in college. He knew my professor directly because they worked together on a committee in an association in the industry. So he says, “Yeah, we need some volunteers come on out.” So I went out there, he sent me a couple of days in May. So I shadowed a facilitator for a couple of days in May, went out there for a couple of days in June. And then one day I was out there in July and I was waiting at the top of a hill for one of the facilitators. And at this point I was really excited. I love this. This is where I loved doing because I never forgot that experience in college. So I saw the facilitator who I was going to shadow walk up the hill and she handed me an envelope. And she says, “This is from Big Dog.” And Big Dog was a nickname for the director at the program.

So I opened the envelope and I pulled out and I saw a bunch of paper was a higher packet. I was like, what? So when I saw him later on that day, I went up to him and I showed him the packet and this is what he said to me, “Well, if you’re going to show up, I might as well pay you for it.” So I became from volunteer to a part-time facilitator/tech guy. And then the next year I was with his staff full time and I’ve been facilitating ever since. So just by the power of volunteering, I got into the industry full time based on that role.

Douglas:

I once heard this advice which was, if you want to get somewhere just turn up.

Tony:

Yeah, just show up. Take that risk. Take that step forward. Don’t think about it, just do it. A lot of times people get into analysis paralysis where they’re overthinking it. Sometimes you just have to take that step. And by doing that, my life changed completely just by sending out that message and just wanting to volunteer and driving that distance just to do it, just to get in.

Douglas:

And so what was some of the early facilitation like for you when you started to lean into some of that work that was going to be volunteer work, but turned into a part-time job with Big Dog?

Tony:

The facilitation itself, I was learning. I was in a complete learning mode. And I remember what our instructor did with us back in the class and those activities. And as I was watching these activities, I’m like, I remember this so well, so vividly. And I just had to learn the style of delivering it. And I just spent that first year, that volunteer time and the part-time time just learning it and watching other facilitators. And then eventually I just started incorporating like, okay, I want to do it this way. I want to do this design. I want to try it this way. And then when I became full-time next year, I designed my own progression and my own activity set based on what I learned and based on the training that I experienced. So just by observing, asking questions and having the strong willingness to learn and grow, I developed a very successful program for my groups over the next decade plus.

Douglas:

So for those listeners that aren’t as familiar with this kind of facilitation, tell us a little bit more about what the nature of these activities, how they work, what we’re asking participants to do and the benefits they might get out of it.

Tony:

Yeah, this is adventure-based recreation team building. This is experiential learning, so learning by doing. And what we do is when a group comes in, we start it off small. We start off like simple name games, and then we start doing ground initiatives where we’re dissolving the physical barriers, getting the group start connecting and bonding, start building that trust. I dissolve an initial barrier with me so they can start trusting me and be comfortable with me, because I’m going to take them through these challenges that are going to build on themselves and become more and more challenging and requiring a lot of trust throughout the day. So what we do is I design a progression to start out those name games, go to the ground initiatives and eventually at some point we’re doing trust leans, trust falls, lifting and spotting. And then to the point where we’re lifting people sometimes 12 feet off the ground using just each other in the team. And then eventually doing some high ropes and high climbing with rock courses, rock climbing walls and zip lines.

Douglas:

So is this like rock climbing stuff where someone down below is helping provide the guideline or what is that technique called?

Tony:

Well, with the rock climbing wall there’s the belay technique, and then with the most there’s belaying. But what we do prior to that is we do it ground initiatives and some low ropes courses where we get them prepped for that type of physicality and that trust. So I start off very low, like I said, with those name games. Then I start building up from there. We start getting people foot off the ground, two feet off the ground, six feet off the ground, 12 feet off the ground and then eventually up into the climbing mode. So those activities they build upon themselves to a higher degree of trust and energy and more and more challenge.

Douglas:

Yeah, for sure. What was the pinnacle challenge when you think about the most difficult thing that you would have folks do?

Tony:

If they’re not going to climb for the day, I built them up for the 12-foot wall. What it is a 12-foot wall where the whole entire group has to get to that wall one at a time. They have to go up and over just using themselves. So when you’re going up the wall yourself, you’re pretty much surrendering your body to the team. And as a team they’re lifting you and pushing you up. And the team, the members at the top of the wall are helping you get up and over that wall to achieve that success. And once you’re up and over, you help bring up the next three people until it is your time to go back down again. Getting that trust from the beginning of those name games for the group to start trusting each other, it’s building up that support so when they’re ready to go over the wall, they have the entire support of their team and they can trust their team to keep them safe throughout that entire activity, because it’s very high energy, high trust.

And I always say, don’t let the energy get in the way of the safety. So it’s not just physical safety but it’s a mental and emotional safety, as you know with every single type of facilitation activity.

Douglas:

Yeah, those layers of safety are important. I’m curious the impact that you’ve seen when groups go back to working outside of the environment you’re working with them in.

Tony:

That is actually fascinating. I can give testimonial based on that by the groups that come out year after year, like some of the school groups and the chaperones come back. And some of the students who are in their leadership mentoring programs come back as upperclassmen who see me. And the testament is this, that the chaperones say, “Tony, I want to be in your group again because of what you did for my kids for the last several years.” So they see how powerful it is because throughout the year, these leadership programs are working together, freshmen with the upperclassmen and the upperclassmen are there to help them get through their freshman year. So by the testimonies of the chaperones coming back over and over again, and the students I see maybe from freshmen to upperclassmen, they know the power of that. It works because they are growing. I see the growth and I see the happiness in the chaperones faces based on what I’ve helped them do as a team and grow from that point.

Douglas:

Interesting. And what kind of stories are they telling you about what they notice when they’re back at school, outside of the camp or outside of the course?

Tony:

Some of the freshmen they come in very shy. For example, let’s take a leadership program, they come in shy. And over the course of the next couple of years they’re in this leadership program, and whether they stay or not stay, I’ll hear back from the chaperones saying their experience with you has given them more confidence to go through high school and do what they need to do to succeed beyond high school. So I’ve heard firsthand that their confidence has been built and it has grown based on their experience working with me on these courses.

Douglas:

Yeah, very cool. And it makes me think about how a lot of facilitation in the business space or in the community space tends to be or revolve around a lot of conversation. How much does the conversation play a role in this fairly physically challenging space that you’re operating in?

Tony:

There is a lot of conversation because the activities that we give them, they’re so challenging that the groups I give them time to take that silence to think about what they want to do. I give them that time to plan, which is a big thing. A lot of it could be trial and error, but I give them those moments to plan. And as they’re going through the plan, if they fail they got to either start over and regroup and engage in that conversation again. Or they’re talking throughout the whole entire program saying, here’s what I’m seeing, this is what I’ve done. This is what worked, let’s try this. So the conversation is constantly going throughout. But the funny thing is that sometimes when I give them these very vague, yet strict rules, if they have a mishap I will give them a consequence which is silencing the group and they have to communicate non-verbally.

But conversation either words or non-verbal is very powerful. And the chaperones love it. And even the groups love it when I silence them because some kind of magic occurs during that moment of silence when they’re trying to communicate without words.

Douglas:

Wow. Yeah.

Tony:

So conversation’s an ongoing thing, and I have a great example of this. I had a senior executive group come out one time at one of the courses I was working. And one thing they mentioned to me, the main context says… Well, actually I did a name game. I said, “I want you to say your name and a strength you have and a name and a weakness you have.” And the most senior executive in the group said, “Well, my weakness is that I’m not very approachable. I don’t like people… I’m not good with people coming up to me and talking and just I’m not very approachable in my office.” So I designed the specific activity from scratch, my own design from a base activity that I always did. I included instructions and I included consequences, and I included rules. I put the group through this and it got to the point where he was shut down. He couldn’t see, he couldn’t talk. He was reliant on the rest of the group.

They got him through the end, they got the group through the end. After we were done with this activity and after we processed, he came out and said, “Thank you everyone. Now I’m more approachable and I welcome all of you to come to my office anytime you have a problem.” Because he relied on his team to help him get to the end. My activity completely shut him down which was one of the purposes of the group, was to have them connect and bond and become closer and trust each other, because the group was in the process of a big merger with the new company coming in. So there was a lot of, not necessarily mistrust but a lot of questions to be had. But I was able to connect them to the point where this guy was just surprised by how much his team helped him in a moment of crisis in that activity.

Douglas:

Yeah. And I’m picking up on a thread of passion and deep interest in that work you were doing. Can you share a little bit about what led you to pivot from the work with the physical challenges and the ropes courses and things, to more business setting or more innovation type facilitation?

Tony:

Yeah. During my time as a team building facilitator, I saw this amazing creativity coming from people during these activities. And that always just really got my fire going, just watching the creative process happen. And I realized that going through the certification program with Voltage Control, that in any situation the creative process is there. So going into the business model, the business side or the group or the corporation side or the meeting side of it, I could still do these activities, facilitate the activities and see the creative process happen. That’s the one thing that drives me that I’m passionate about. To see these groups come together, collaborate and work together and cooperate and have that creativity thrive and shine, so they can all work at an optimal level and achieve what they want to and have that success.

Douglas:

I was also thinking about the moment you shared in the alumni story about the health crisis that you encountered, and make me think about just how often these tough moments that we go through help us discover the depth of our resilience. And I was just curious to hear a little bit more about that time for you and how much that played a role in how you were thinking about your career.

Tony:

Yes, I was obviously back out in team building in 2021 after everything started to open back up again. And in July of 2021, I started experiencing this health issue with breathing, and I found that my feet were getting swollen and I was retaining water and I just couldn’t figure out what was going on. And my mom says I was always tenacious, so I just always worked through whatever, I need to work through my issues. But it got to the point where I was having extreme breathing problems where I couldn’t speak more in two words without coughing. And I eventually went to the emergency room and they found out that I had a critical heart issue that I needed to have surgically repaired. They had to replace my aortic valve. And because I’m tenacious and because I’m a fighter, I’ve always has been, that didn’t determine me. I just knew I had to heal myself, get back to work.

I never lost my passion for facilitating, and I knew I wanted to get back into it. I couldn’t do team building right away because of my recovery, because of the restrictions I had. But now it’s been three years so I am resilient. So I healed myself back up. I put on a lot of muscle again, and I’m able to go back and do what I love as a passion.

Douglas:

So you’re back out on the ropes course with teens and young adults?

Tony:

Yeah, I’m back out there. I’ve been facilitating the summer. I got back on top of a ropes course 30 feet in the air, climbed the pole to get up there, went out to the course to help people in need. So I’m back to where I was and I’m happy I’m able to do that. The director at the place where I got my start was Owens, that Outdoor Professional Leadership School, it’s a new director now. And he knew my situation. He’s like, “Take your time. You do what you need to do. I’m here to support you and back you up.” And it was no problem for me. I just built myself back up to where I needed to be. It’s not just a physical thing, it’s a mental thing. I had a little thought in my head, I’m like, am I going to be able to do this? But I pushed myself through because I’ve always been an adventurous person. As a kid I was out there breaking bones, and playing around and scratching and bruising with my childhood best friends. So I’ve always been that type to just keep pushing myself forward.

Douglas:

What did it feel like being back in the course with the youth and getting on the top of the 30 foot?

Tony:

Oh, it felt exhilarating. Actually I mentioned to the director, I said it felt so good to be back up there again. I just recently did a two-day program with a group that I’ve been working with for years. The leader of the group saw me for the first time in five years. He was happy to see me. I did a facilitation program on the ground with him the first day, then we did the high ropes the second day. So he was happy to an experienced facilitator back with his group again. And to me, it just felt good to be up there and work the course and work with the group.

Douglas:

That’s fantastic. I’m glad you’re back at it.

Tony:

Well, it’s funny because I thought, as I mentioned in my article, was I going to lose my skills, was I going to be rusty. But once you get out… I was a little rusty when I got going again, but as I kept doing the same activities or doing the same thing over and over again, I quickly remembered how to do it. I didn’t lose sight on anything. It just happened really fast to the point where the director’s like, “Okay, I have to go down to the bottom of the hill. Tony’s going to be a site supervisor on the ground.” Oh, okay, because he trusts me. I’ve been in that course for over a decade so he knows that I know what I’m doing.

Douglas:

What advice would you have to others who might be facing similar challenges or making a pivot of some sort, exploring new things?

Tony:

Just go for it. There are times where I’ve experienced analysis paralysis. I just at this point say, if you want to try something, you have to do it. Otherwise, you’re never going to do it. Just take that step forward, even if it’s baby steps. But the biggest thing with that is surround yourself with mentors and surround yourself with people you can learn from. That’s the key to all of this. When I first got started, I just listened, I absorbed, I learned, I observed. I just took it all in. I am a question asker, so I would ask questions all the time and everybody in the industry was just so patient with answering my questions. So that’s the one thing I would tell people is ask questions because people are out there willing to help you. It’s kind of funny because the old director when he first hired me, he would introduce me, “This is Tony. He likes to ask questions.” Just because I just drilled him all the time with questions because I wanted to learn.

I wanted to know because I wanted to make my activity set for the day very powerful and impactful. And when I designed it and I tested it on a group, it worked so well based on our debrief and processing that it was a coach of a soccer team. They loved it. So I just kept doing the same thing over and over and over again to the point where I mastered the delivery and I became very good at facilitating. I was able to ask the right questions, engaged in those strong conversations and watched the group grow and thrive in the moment.

Douglas:

Yeah. So when you joined us for the certification program, you’d been facilitating for quite a while, and as you just mentioned, had built a lot of confidence around techniques. And yet when you came to us, you had that facilitation identity. And afterwards you mentioned to me that you had redefined that identity from a whole new perspective. I’m curious how that felt and what that really meant for you as far as how that identity shifted.

Tony:

Oh yeah. So the identity changed in a little bit where I realized that team building facilitation is not the only type of facilitation out there. I realized that my identity can expand and I can use this in any aspect of facilitation, whether it be in meetings for nonprofit groups, corporations, product development. So my identity is expanded as a facilitator. And I’m happy to see that with the certification program that allowed me to see beyond just the team building. So it is just what I experienced in that facilitation certification class was very eye-opening because I was introduced to a whole new world of style activities, programs, and possibilities. It’s not just team building. There’s just so much more out there that I had no clue that existed. So I’m just happy for me to continue to learn and grow and explore those opportunities.

Douglas:

Yeah. And how much of what you learned during certification has found its way into the team building work that you’re doing? So when you find yourself doing the games with youth or on these rope courses, do any of those little lessons or little shifts in the way you think about your work, have they found their way into those moments?

Tony:

Yes. Actually, I was working with a high school football team a couple of weeks ago, and I included the 1-2-4-All, the writing structure. I never heard of that until I got into the course and started researching that. So I gave them a topic and I had them all think about it for a minute. Then I had them pair up, then I had them come to groups of four. And then I had them come to the entire group and the conversation was rich and robust after I did that set up. And another thing that just happened with this two-day group that I worked with, it’s a college group, there were RAs. They were going to be RAs for the year, Residence Assistants in the dorms. And based on what I saw in the facilitation class about the power of silence that Eric talks about in the class, I’m a talker.

I was very uncomfortable with silence in my early days of facilitation. I felt like I had to give the answers. They didn’t know what was going on. I just sometimes couldn’t control myself. But eventually over time, I learned how to step back and let the group take complete control. With this group when it came to the end of the day, we just got off the higher-ups course. It was time for us to do our closing before they were going to leave for the afternoon to go back to college. I circled up the group for a final debrief, and a lot of times some groups will just debrief for five or 10 minutes. I actually got them in a circle for 30 minutes and I started off by asking them to, I said, “Okay, we just did a bunch of activities that involve leadership. You’re going back to college to become leaders. What have you learned on this course the last two days in terms of leadership, and how are you going to take that back to college and put that into play with your students and on campus?”

And I silenced them for a minute to think about it. Just complete silence, and then we had this amazing discussion with all 26 of the RAs. And then I silenced them again for another 30 seconds and I said, “Okay, we experienced some challenges out here. What challenges that you saw out here that you think you could possibly face back in school and how you going to solve those challenges? What resources are you going to use?” So I silenced them for 30 seconds, and then we had another robust conversation. So I used that power of silence. Well, later that day, I was in the office with the director and I was kind of debriefing on some key issues that I saw over the last two days when the leader of the program he came in to pay the bill, and he looked at me and he looked at the director.

He goes, “Tony, I was blown away by that 30-minute debrief that you just had. You stole my thunder. I was going to do exactly what you just did.” I said, I’m glad that you silenced the group. I’m glad that you used that power of silence to get them to think instead of just throwing out their words to have that deep thinking because on our campus, they’re going to need to do that. They’re going to have to think about those challenges and those leadership roles that they have to play without just jumping in sometimes And I want them to do that deep thinking. So he was very appreciative, and he said to the director and me, he goes, “I love the fact that you are very well-groomed and well-known facilitator in terms of your learning, your style and how you deliver, how professional you are.” So he was very happy with how professional my role was in getting his team to an optimal level for this school year.

Douglas:

That’s fantastic.

Tony:

This was our first event as RAs for the year. He also said, “I’m glad somebody outside of the group did what you did and not just listening to me all the time, because I’m going to be training them for the next two weeks. Last thing they wanted to do is hear more out of me, so what you did in that debrief is exactly what I was looking for.” So he says, “I understand the power of professional facilitation of facilitators, and you’re one of those.” So I did that based off what I learned from Eric in the class is that power of silence. And when I hit my stopwatch, I was comfortable standing there in that silence. Before I’d be like, come on time, hurry up. I can’t take the silence. But at that point I was just like, this just feels great.

It’s wonderful because it gives everybody a chance to think, especially the introverts. I’ve noticed that introverts don’t just want to say something, they want that thought before they share. So it’s also a good example of know your group, and I’ve worked with this group in the past. So know your group very well and do your pre-work with the group so you have a good strong understanding, because with our briefing notes as the groups, we get their purpose, their goals and objectives. And I read that and I design my day or two days around those briefing notes. So it’s the power of facilitation works with every group.

Douglas:

Yeah, that’s great. And you mentioned the power of community in your professional growth. Can you share a story about how the Voltage Control community supported you during a critical moment in your journey?

Tony:

Yes, actually I can. In my cohort for the certification program, when I was working on my portfolio, I was kind of lost on my last artifact that I wanted to do on there. And I just didn’t know what to do. And so I reached out to Eric and he gave me some pointers and I said, “Okay, I know what I’m going to do now.” When I wrote it out, I had my monthly partner look it over. He goes, “No, you got to do this, this, this, and this. You got to change this to this. You got to change this to that.” So I took his recommendation because he had experience on what my artifact said. So after I rewrote it, I showed it to him again, he goes, “This is perfect. He did exactly what you needed to do.” So I got that community of being able to reach out to somebody to look at your work and get feedback on it to improve yourself, plus that person providing the feedback also grows and learns from you, it’s just very powerful.

So I am very community focused because as my growth in team building, I used a lot of mentors to help me grow. And I saw that in our cohort, and I saw that in the Facilitation Lab and circle that people are out there to answer questions and help everybody grow and become successful.

Douglas:

Yeah. And you’ve been playing a really active role in the Facilitation Lab as a volunteer.

Tony:

Yeah, I enjoy it. Here’s the funny thing about me, when I find something I really like and I’m passionate about, I go guns blazing. I enjoy it. I love it. I put my heart into it. That kind of goes back to that being tenacious. I want something, so I’m going to go after it. I want to get my ideas out there. I want to help people grow and share what I know. And it’s just the power of that community is just amazing wherever you go, as long as you are tuned into what’s going on and you take an active role and part in that whole process.

Douglas:

Yeah, absolutely. It’s one of those things where you get out of it what you put in.

Tony:

It truly is because when I first got started and when I was asking all these questions, one of my old managers, he managed three different courses throughout the time I was in team building. He recently left the business back in 2021. But every single course he went to, he always brought me on because he knew that I was willing to learn, willing to grow, stay on top of my profession, stay on top of new technology, new activities, new ideas. So I’m one of those people that always stays on top of trends and technology in any industry. So for example, in the circle, the fact that Eric puts up workshop design or people putting in advice or people putting in activities and libraries and books to read, I’m all about that support and providing that as well because that’s what helped me grow. And I just want to be able to go full circle and give it back to the people that are new in the field of facilitation.

Douglas:

Absolutely. Speaking of people that are new in facilitation or even ones that have been around and are looking to take their skills to the next level, what key pieces of advice do you offer?

Tony:

That’s a good one. It goes back to the whole… So I’m a big networker. I’m an extrovert, so I like talking to people, meeting people, connecting people. I used to be in Chambers of Commerce in my old industries. I just like getting that whole connection. So I would say build your network of facilitators in any industry because we all have different experiences, backgrounds, ideas, suggestions that can be incorporated in any style of facilitation. No matter what activity you’re doing, you can always have that delivery in a certain way. So build your network, surround yourself with mentors. I always say surround yourself with people smarter than you so you can learn from them, that’s my saying. So get that network in that community of people in place so you can grow and thrive from that experience.

Douglas:

Are there any common mistakes you see people making that you want to advise folks to try and avoid?

Tony:

Yes, I’ve seen mistakes, and I hate to say it this way, but I’ve seen bad facilitation. What I would suggest is… And this happened to me, when I provide feedback… I remember one time we just got done with an eight-hour session. And the new facilitators were, I hear a bunch of complaints. I hear a bunch of arguing, I hear a bunch of this, hear a bunch of that. I was staying silent because I learned that leaders speak less like, you know what? I’m just going to let this ride. Finally, toward the end the director said, “Tony, you’ve been quiet. What do you have to say?” So I wanted to just listen to what they were saying and I said, “This is what I see.” And I shared my thoughts. And whether or not they take that with them or not, that’s up to them.

But it is challenging for me because sometimes people don’t want to hear what you have to say because they think they know the best or they think their way is working, when you clearly see it’s not or may not be working in the moment. So you kind of give them some feedback. So even I remember one time I got feedback back in 2013, I was struggling with some of my facilitation because I was still new to it. And one guy brought me up to a white board. He goes, “Okay, this is what I’m seeing out of you. This is where you need to be. This is the steps you need to take. I took that to heart.” Next thing I know, I was at that moment. That’s where I learned to talk less and listen more. So I’ve learned from my mistakes and I take on everything that’s coming to me as a learning opportunity. So that’s what I would do regarding mistakes.

So just listen to the people, listen to everybody’s… Just listen to feedback. It may not work for you, just listen to it. You may have that aha moment somewhere in the future. It’s like, oh, I understand what he said now. It makes sense in this moment.

Douglas:

Yeah, having that growth mindset and being willing to hear suggestions from anyone, it’s really valuable asset and equality to have as an individual.

Tony:

Yeah, don’t fight it. When I was doing workshop facilitation for a non-profit for a year and a half, one of the things we said was be open to feedback. Don’t fight it, don’t resist it. It may not work for you, but you may have that aha moment down the road where it will. So that’s one thing people have to take to heart.

Douglas:

And as you continue your journey, what are the things you’re most excited about with your career?

Tony:

What I’ve always experienced with what I’ve been currently doing is watching people connect, collaborate, thrive, create and grow. I’m all about that, getting them beyond that choke point where they can expand and grow to the point where they succeed. So I’m all about the expansion of ideas and having every voice heard so that everybody can learn from them, and they can work effectively after the time with me.

Douglas:

Yeah, that’s so important and quite common with a lot of facilitators feeling that way.

Tony:

One thing that I had a crisis with was this, how do I know I’m making an impact on people? I remember I was talking to another facilitator about that, and she’s had a lot of experience doing a lot of different things. She said it very clear. She goes, “Well, think of it as being a teacher. Your students leave after the year, you may never see them again. You just got to trust that what you’re doing is providing opportunities for them to grow in their future.” And actually, after having this conversation with her, I reflected on my team building days when I was doing this workshop facilitation. It’s like, yes, by the chaperones coming back out and some of the students coming back out again and hearing what I did for them the year before, shows that I am making a positive impact on a lot of people. So with all the groups that I’ve facilitated over the years which has been over 400 and the thousands of people I’ve positively impacted just based on feedback, I know that I’m succeeding in my job and doing it very well.

In fact, I remember one year I went into work one day at one location. I used to work at all these different ropes courses. I was brought on to nine, 10 different places throughout my years. And I remember I came in one day and I met this woman that worked at one of the locations. She goes, “Tony…” She said, “I got to get my daughter in one of your programs.” I said, “Why?” He goes, “Did you see what came in the mail?” I said, “No.” He goes, “Eric got this envelope full of thank you cards. Your name’s all over them.” I’m like, “What?” She goes, “Yeah.” She goes, “It’s just unbelievable the feedback they were giving you, this great feedback.” So at lunchtime I looked through all these cards. I’m like, holy cow. So I saw firsthand the positive impact I was making on people’s lives.

Douglas:

That’s amazing. Well, as we come to the close, I’ve just got a couple of questions. First is, how do you plan to continue evolving as a facilitator, and what role do you think the Facilitation Lab community might play in that?

Tony:

I’m going to continue to evolve by doing what I always do, and that’s learn, grow, ask questions, get involved, because I noticed that the more you get involved you’re just going to learn from that experience no matter what you’re doing. For example, as I volunteer in the lab and I’m putting up articles and stuff, I’m reading some of the stuff and I’m learning something new. So that’s part of my growth evolution. So that just makes me feel happy because now I have more information in my toolkit to make myself more successful for the groups and make them more successful in the end.

Douglas:

Yeah, it is amazing how just having a project or having something that needs to get done can force so much learning. It’s like if you need to post something in the hub, then guess what? It’s forcing me to go look something up that I might not have otherwise.

Tony:

Right. And when I look at some of these briefing notes, I study them like, okay, I’m going to do this. I’m going to do this, I’m going to do this. And it becomes a learning experience because based on what their purpose is. And I learned something new every single time I at the facility and I’m like, well, this worked. This didn’t work as well, so let’s just kind of tweak it this way. But through that growth process, I’ve mastered a delivery that’s just crazy good. Just got a lot of feedback, and it just makes me feel so good because I know I’m doing my job at a high level.

Douglas:

Great. That’s wonderful to hear. And to wrap things up, I’d like to invite you to leave our listeners with a final thought.

Tony:

Yeah, this is pretty much based on a lot of stuff we touched on today. One, take that step forward. I don’t care how small it is, take that mini step if you have to, because I always say and I used to do this with one of my groups, I would show them the photo of that circle where inside the circle says your comfort zone, and then the circle says where the magic happens. You have to step outside of your comfort zone to achieve that magic. So take that baby step and keep moving forward with every single step. I’ve designed stuff I’m like, I have no clue what this is going to look like. But in the end, it became very, very successful. So take that baby step, create your network, surround yourself with mentors, ask questions, and always have an open mind about any information you’re receiving. If you’re not sure, ask somebody with that experience or just get some feedback or just engage in that conversation to bounce ideas off one another.

Douglas:

Fantastic. Tony, it’s been a pleasure having you on the show, and I really enjoyed the conversation.

Tony:

I had so much fun, Douglas. Thank you for inviting me on here. I really appreciate you and your time.

Douglas:

Thanks for joining me for another episode of the Facilitation Lab podcast. If you enjoyed the episode, please leave us a review and be sure to subscribe and receive updates when new episodes are released. We love listener tales and invite you to share your facilitation stories. Send them to us on LinkedIn or via email. If you want to know more, head over to our blog where I post weekly articles and resources about facilitation, team dynamics and collaboration. Visit voltagecontrol.com.

The post How Adventure-Based Facilitation Can Transform Team Dynamics appeared first on Voltage Control.

“I think that is one of the best gifts that you can give other people is yes, we’re all just chemical biological beings at the beginning of these, and we have all the choices in the world to go somewhere else.”- Nathan Hughes

In this episode of the Facilitation Lab podcast, host Douglas Ferguson converses with Nathan Hughes, COO and co-founder of Detroit Labs. Nathan shares his journey from a technology-focused career to embracing facilitation and leadership. He discusses the pivotal role of facilitation in managing teams, especially during crises like the pandemic. Nathan highlights the importance of practice in low-stakes environments to build facilitation skills and emphasizes the need for trust and connection within teams. He also offers advice for technology leaders transitioning into management, stressing the value of redefining success and maintaining personal creative outlets.

Show Highlights

[00:01:30] Nathan’s Journey into Facilitation
[00:04:48] Communication and Change Management
[00:07:30] Integration of Facilitation into Work
[00:25:29] Acknowledging Group Tension
[00:28:02] Facilitator’s Role in Connection
[00:38:38] Involving Teams in Change
[00:41:12] Adaptive Leadership and Facilitation

Links | Resources

Nate on Linkedin

About the Guest

Nathan is the co-founder of Detroit Labs, a leading software development and consulting company known for creating innovative digital products across a wide range of industries. With over 25 years of experience in the technology sector, Nathan is a certified coach and trainer who oversees culture, strategy, and operations within the organization.

About Voltage Control

Voltage Control is a facilitation academy that develops leaders through certifications, workshops, and organizational coaching focused on facilitation mastery, innovation, and play. Today’s leaders are confronted with unprecedented uncertainty and complex change. Navigating this uncertainty requires a systemic facilitative approach to gain clarity and chart pathways forward. We prepare today’s leaders for now and what’s next.

Subscribe to Podcast

Engage Control The Room

Voltage Control on the Web
Contact Voltage Control

Transcript

Douglas Ferguson:

Hi, I’m Douglas Ferguson. Welcome to the Facilitation Lab podcast where I speak with Voltage Control certification alumni and other facilitation experts about the remarkable impact they’re making. We embrace a method agnostic approach so you can enjoy a wide range of topics and perspectives as we examine all the nuances of enabling meaningful group experiences. This series is dedicated to helping you navigate the realities of facilitating collaboration, ensuring every session you lead becomes truly transformative. Thanks so much for listening. If you’d like to join us for a live session sometime, you can join our facilitation lab community. It’s an ideal space to apply what you learn in the podcast in real time with peers. Sign up today at voltagecontrol.com/facilitation-lab. If you’d like to learn more about our 12-week facilitation certification program, you can read about it at voltagecontrol.com. Today I’m with Nathan Hughes at Detroit Labs where he is the chief operating officer and founded the business with three other founders 13 years ago. Welcome to the show, Nate.

Nathan Hughes:

Thank you. I’m glad to be here.

Douglas Ferguson:

So great to have you. It’s always fun to talk with alumni and folks doing great work out in the world. And I guess for starters, let’s hear a little bit about your journey and how you started to begin, what often people call this unexpected journey into facilitation.

Nathan Hughes:

Absolutely. Absolutely. I’m a double alumni because I started and then paused and had to go do some other stuff and then came back and finished. So I like to think that I’ve … Man, I’ve gotten a lot of face time with the facilitation.

Douglas Ferguson:

Get the benefit of multiple cohorts, building the network even bigger.

Nathan Hughes:

Multiple cohorts. Lots of friends. Absolutely. Yeah. Thanks. So right now I’m chief operating Officer, like you said, I’m in the technology side. Information technology. I started my career in the ’90s at the University of Michigan, library science, helping install database systems and things like that. I got into development. I did a lot of contracting, so did a lot of individual selling myself to win a deal and then go and hopefully do that deal well enough that they would want to hire me again and move through a couple different contract companies that collected all of us up and offered services and things like that. Traditional, maybe 10, 15 years after doing that, build up some skills, got into a little bit more leadership, a little bit more management, started managing some small software teams and then some larger software teams, and then got involved in managing software network teams and system administrators and things like that.

About 13, 14 years ago, I got an opportunity to help co-found this company, Detroit Labs, which is a services company. My whole life has been services. I’ve just always been in … I think of it as technology hospitality so I’ve always been in that side of the business. And this was a business that the first week we were talking about, we’re going to go very heavy and focus on some of the startups that were starting in Detroit. I’m in the Detroit area. Detroit Labs, the name of the company. And how all of that changed so rapidly.

And I was going to go in and I was going to be in charge of the web development side. That was some of my background. And then we had mobile development with another founder, and within about a month decided what web development in 2000 … When was this? 2011, 12, 13 years ago. Web development was very commoditized. This might not make sense for a business so changed it and focused on mobile. And we’re going to focus and do only with the startups that are in the startup community here. They’re startups, they don’t have money, and we’re trying to build a business. We want clients that can pay. We started immediately to change that and just flux and change in all these plans that we had immediately going off in different directions. And how do you keep on top of that and how do you create some consistency, some stability when you’re in the middle of that startup whirlwind?

And we’ve been doing it last 13 years. We’ve pivoted and changed the business a couple of times. When we went through the pandemic, we obviously changed like everyone else. Another pretty radical situation where we could send everyone home and work from home easily as a technology company but the kinds of services and products and things like that that we offered had to change radically because all of a sudden people wanted to buy something else. And so as you would expect, it’s been nonstop find something that works, do that for a little bit. All of a sudden it seems like it’s not working as well. Let’s change. Oh my gosh, we got to change everything again. We got to talk in a different way. We have to communicate this to a whole team a different way and move into something else and repeating that. And I think we feel like we do that pretty good. I don’t know if any organization does change management and that kind of thing. Well, but I think we do it and I’m pretty pleased with, okay. And a lot of it is because we spend a lot of time focusing on communication and message and mentoring and coaching and partnership within the company as well as partnership with our clients and all those good things.

And so there was a point when I was doing a lot of … In labs, I started out as a developer and then I got really heavy into people ops, and then I got heavy into operations. And during my people ops side, I started doing a lot more training. I actually offered up packaged training as well as putting together workshops that were specific to the kinds of things that we were doing at labs. This is what leadership means at this company and the way we structure teams or this is how we collaborate and do these kinds of projects and how do we talk to that or give presentations, workshops, etc. And I was doing that and finding out that I liked it. And then I realized I really like this a lot. This more structured piece. I was going to some training and things like that, but I was more flying by the seat of my pants just, oh, this feels like the right thing to say, or I read this book or these things in a different context. I’m going to pull that. Maybe that’ll help with the training. And what I finally realized, oh, with the facilitation, that’s what this is.

And so there was a moment when I realized I’m doing a lot of facilitation. It would be really neat to actually look into that as a real thing and understand what the heck I was doing because I bet people have already figured out a lot of stuff and really smart about this. And I think that’s when I crossed paths with voltage control. We actually partnered with you for a small project. But then I think more importantly to me, I saw … You might have just started … Maybe. I don’t think I was in the first cohort, but you just started the facilitation certification program And that’s where I landed.

I decided, you know what? I want to actually learn some of this stuff and see what I’m actually doing and maybe do it in a better way, a more professional way, more learned way. And that’s how I got involved in that kind of business. I’ve never put facilitation on a resume. I’ve never really thought of it as a skill set until that moment. And then after that I thought, oh wow, this is really a rich and comprehensive book of work and set of skills that if you know it exists and you can start focusing it, you can actually get better and practice and things like that. It’s been in my head as this is what I’m doing. Okay, let me look at that and let me see if I can get better when I’m doing my normal job, which is never, Hey, Nathan, can you come facilitate it’s, Hey Nathan, can you jump in and do this work? And in my head I translated to, oh, here’s some facilitation I’m going to do and I’m going to use these skills because I want to get this kind of result.

Douglas Ferguson:

Yeah. That’s so common. We hear that all the time with folks saying that their title’s not facilitation or facilitator, but there’s so many opportunities to bring the skills to bear, whether it’s planning out a full agenda or I’m just bringing in some little nuance to how I show up or how I encourage others to show up.

Nathan Hughes:

Absolutely. Like I said, I do a lot of change management kind of things. Throughout the pandemic I was chief pandemic officer, so the weekly meetings, here’s what’s going, here’s what we’re doing, here’s what’s happening, here’s how the company that you’re part of plays a role in this situation. But everyone’s lives were so much … It was so much different and so much more expanded. Everyone was thinking about something else. And so here’s how much we need you to think about labs while you’re working and dealing with all these other things. And so there was a lot of that kind of work. And then client services is always a … I don’t want to say it’s a battle, but it’s a struggle between, hey, here’s what we’re going to build for you client and the client saying, Hey, here’s what I thought you were going to build and they never match.

And then how do you bring them together and how do you show that okay, what we’re building is what you want and how does the client show us, okay, what you’re building needs to change in this way. That’s always happening. And then there’s just normal people stuff. Talking about roles and titles and how do people bring their identity to work and how do you get that information. So there’s always these fundamental aspects of the work that I’ve always been involved in as a very high-tech person for most of my career. There’s always been this need to be better at that. In a room how do I try and have a conversation that includes all six of the people in the room, not just the loudest or the most comfortable two? Or in a communication that I’m putting together how do I leave it open so it’s collaborative, not an ultimatum or not cut and dry or open myself up to risks in the future? There’s all of these bits that have always existed and I feel like I have a better chance of getting some of them right now that I’ve studied some of this stuff and practiced some of this stuff in a formal way.

Douglas Ferguson:

You mentioned practice a couple of times now. What does practice look like for you? How does that show up for you and your team I guess?

Nathan Hughes:

So I’ve always had this notion that, or this feeling that when you’re at whatever you’re trying to do, but when we’re talking about work. So when you at work, there are things that are important, but they’re hard to practice because they only show up maybe when the stakes are the highest. Or if you’re a emergency crisis management kind of person, you need a crisis and emergency in order to practice some of these things. And so practice to me is okay, I’m looking at that and identifying this is a thing that happens at the best time or the worst time or whatever your context around that is, or at the highest stakes, how do I fake it and create opportunities to practice that aren’t make or break. I don’t want to do it for the first time when it’s the most important time.

And so throughout my professional career, I’ve identified places where, oh, you know what? I’m afraid to do X, Y, Z. I want to practice that. How do I figure out? I used to be really, really nervous, afraid of public speaking or I don’t know, talking in a podcast conversationally where the questions aren’t fully written out and I didn’t have my answers. How do I practice that? I don’t want to practice it only when I have to get up on stage and give an important message to … And so I did improv. I identified the fact that, okay, improv is a way to practice this, and if you fail at it, who cares? No one. If you’ve ever been to your friend’s improv show, they fail all the time and who cares? It’s just how it is. That’s literally the goal of it is to get up on stage and be able to do something so terrible and realize, oh, that’s fine. I’m still alive, I’m still going. And then sometimes it works really good and that feels good and so I practice that.

Facilitation. Same thing. The certification program introduced a bunch of workshops and games and structures and these formal role plays that were practiced for facilitation for me. I’ve never introduced one of those specifically in 100% like, “Hey, we’re going to do this exercise.” But through that practice, I have 100% absolutely done the exact same work with a couple group of folks and said, “Okay. You know what, I want you two to go out and write this on this sheet, and you two go and write it on a different sheet and we’re going to come together in five minutes.” A very familiar workshop exercise that I’ve practiced in a low stakes way. And in this point this was a negotiation of I feel like I should be promoted and I’m not being promoted. Like high stakes. People’s entire identity and their salary and comp and feeling of value is able to play with those things that I practice in a way that I don’t feel like I’m completely making it up on the fly.

I do a lot of one-on-ones or I do a lot of intervention stuff or that. So I went through a full certification program for coaching. And in my head I’m not necessarily opening … I’m putting my shingle up to be an executive coach or a performance coach or business coach. What I want to do is practice that in a safe way so that when I’m actually doing it for real with real people and real people stakes, I’ve gone through and gotten some practice. I actually have a fairly full full-formed idea of practice when I say that in a very intentional thing. I play a lot of games that are role-play and improvisational. Same reason. To practice being up and getting a really hard question from a teammate. Hey, you said this two weeks ago, but this other thing happened. Why? And being able in that moment to feel the flush and the heart rate and realize, oh geez, I feel like, oh, I’m going to give a defense. And then okay, no immediately switching gears and being able to give a legitimate, a valid response to that. And I feel like I get that right about half of the time because I practice a lot of it and I think half of the time’s pretty good. As a human being in a stressful human being world, I’m pretty okay with half of the time.

Douglas Ferguson:

How have you found your team to respond to the idea of role-playing and that kind of practice? Is that something that they’re receptive to?

Nathan Hughes:

Here’s a funny thing. In business, in professional life, you don’t say, “Hey, you want to role-play something.” You start talking about vision and vision is role-play. Hey, here’s what we would love the world to look like a year from now, 10 years from now, next week, whatever. It’s pretend. It’s pretend with facts and basis but you’re just making it up. That’s role-play. What would you do in that world? And put yourself … And so role-play is just one-to-one, it’s vision and it’s future strategy conversations. We want to change, we want to be something different tomorrow than we are today. As soon as you start describing what that is, and then start even more importantly, describing or putting yourself in the place … Okay, what are you doing in that new world and what is your role and how are you interacting with someone who’s also in this new world? That’s role-play.I wouldn’t say role-play. I wouldn’t use those words. I don’t want people to associate it with other things that they’re grabbing onto because that word’s going to mean something. But that’s all that is. It’s the same skill.

I’m convinced that your body doesn’t know the difference. When it starts flooding, like stress hormones or excitement or nervous energy, whatever that is, those stress hormones are the same, whether you’re doing role-play because you’re on stage at an improv show or you are talking to 40 people in your company, or you’re giving the most important sales presentation to this client. Your body floods you with the same hormones, the same chemicals. You can learn how to deal with that differently and it feels the exact same way so the practice really works. So vision is role-play. Fantasy football is role-play in some ways.

All these things, they’re very similar kinds of dynamics at the fundamental core. I think you can put them into different contexts based on what you’re doing with them. Oh, I’m at work, so I’m going to do that. I’m at home, I’m talking to my 17-year-old daughter who just graduated high school and is trying to … We’re role-playing. But I’m not saying role-play saying, oh, I see you’re looking at these three or four different programs at this college. What are you thinking about? What do you see yourself doing? Oh, if you had that job, what’s the day look like? You know what that is? It’s role-play. That can be role-play fundamental as a tabletop RPG, but it’s a different context. It’s okay, pretend you’re in the future, different world, everything looks different. What do you want that to look like? And now how do you start putting the plan in place or what steps do you need to get there?

Douglas Ferguson:

Yeah. It’s interesting that you talk about the chemicals. I think that’s such an important part of practice. And as we think about the scenarios we might put ourselves into to simulate future scenarios, how do we encourage the physical elements? How do we make sure that it simulates it well enough that our body’s actually starting to create that cocktail so that we’re learning to be comfortable with it, learning to notice it, learning to make peace with it maybe?

Nathan Hughes:

So I personally think it starts with one thing you just said is learning to notice it. At certain levels we are all responding very similarly to different signals in the environment. Same chemicals or same general chemicals. Some people have … Well one, some people know that that happens. That’s a basic level. Oh, I am not thinking this. It’s just a body response. So when that happens in my thinking brain, I don’t get to say, oh, I want this or I don’t want this, or I’m proud of this reaction, or I’m not proud of this. We haven’t even gotten there yet. It’s just chemicals. And knowing that is a good first step. And then the second step is to notice those chemicals. Like this recording about five minutes in, maybe even earlier, I felt some of the chemicals that I feel when I start getting … It’s nervous or it’s fear, but then it just gives me energy. Because I’ve learned to notice it and say, “Oh, that’s happening. Here’s what’s going to happen. I’m going to talk maybe too fast if I don’t notice that. I’m going to run out of breath because I talk even way too fast if I don’t notice it. But also if I notice it, I can use that energy and that can be excitement just as much as it can be fear.”

So the second part, after knowing it actually happens, there’s a biological thing, that piece of knowledge. The second part is learning to recognize it, notice it in yourself. And I don’t know. I know what it feels like in my body. I can’t really say, “Oh, this is what it’ll feel like in someone else’s.” I don’t know that. But I can say you probably feel it as well if you’re trying to learn this. Recognize that and then pay attention to what you do with that.

Don’t start immediately saying, oh, I’m going to change. Just pay attention to what you do. We’ve all learned from our upbringing how we … I think maybe a lot when you were kids, whatever your kid situation is, it trains you, teaches you how to deal with a lot of these reactions, responses. Maybe if you were a sports kid, you’ve got that context. If you were in a house that was maybe more difficult, you’ve got that context. If you were in a rich upbringing, a poor upbringing, whatever. As kids, we learn. But as adults, I think we sometimes don’t reexamine and relearn that stuff. And so the third piece is realize you have natural responses to that physical, that physicality. They don’t have to be those responses forever. And sometimes you have to make a specific effort. So I’m going to change how I feel. You know what? I don’t want to run out of breath anymore. When I’m in this kind of situation because I get so excited I just let it go and run away. So I’m going to notice that and I’m going to change my specific behavior to do something else. You can relearn those things.

Or when I feel this way, I’m not immediately going to jump and start throwing fists and fighting because that was what maybe I did at 14. Well, guess what? That’s an easy one because at 18, 19, 20, you can’t do that. Society stops you. But very few things are that clear. It’s usually not that line. And so as facilitators, I think we get to notice that, recognize that, use that in ourselves, but then we also have to know that others that are in the room are going through that and help or facilitate that moment, that energy. Oh, wow. You get a group of folks that are the smartest in the world at something, and then you introduce something different and they’re the dumbest in the world and you’re like, “Oh, what happened?” Well, so much changes in the room as soon as you introduce something that’s new and people are unfamiliar with. So as a facilitator, if you know that you can work with that and you can adjust to that I think in a productive way. Maybe I shouldn’t have said dumb.

Douglas Ferguson:

You really got me to thinking there and this idea that the noticing is so important and also the conversation you have with yourself around what you’re noticing. I think a lot of times once we label something and interpret it to be a certain way, that sends us into a path. And if we take that path, it may not lead us to where we want to go. So for instance, re acknowledging that, oh, what I’m feeling could be labeled as excitement, not fear, not anxiety. And so simply reframing it and having a different conversation with ourselves. And then I love that you steered it toward the group as well. So realizing that people in the room are having similar experiences or reacting to, interpreting things and helping the group renegotiate with themselves and maybe with each other, how they’re reacting to the things and making it normal to be able to have these kinds of conversations.

Nathan Hughes:

Normal. And even just flat out talking through. You’re in a room and you’re trying to do a in-person, stand-up, physical exercise. You want people to stand up and do something and people don’t want to. It’s just people won’t want to. Unless you have this magic room of people that have been doing this and they love that kind of … If you have a bunch of theater students that have been doing their own work together and it’s a troop, oh, sure. But in case you don’t have that, being able to just say, “And no one’s going to want to do this and a lot of you might be feeling it in your body right now that you don’t want to. Same as me. That’s fine. So just notice that, recognize it. Maybe use that energy to be a little bit more silly or more wild or more free with what you do up here.”

I think being able to recognize that or things as simple as, “Wow. You just said that.” In a meeting. Maybe I’m in an operations meeting, client meeting. “Wow. You just said that. You know what? I am so upset about that. I’m so angry. I want to take revenge on that. I’ve noticed that, I’m going to change that because this isn’t what … That’s just came up. And so I’m going to do something totally different.” Especially if you have a modeling role. If you are at a level where people look and maybe look to you to identify how. If you can say, “Yeah, I have this reaction and I’ve decided I’m going to do something different with it because that natural reaction is not going to serve.” Maybe that original caveman reaction of, oh, this is because it’s a saber tooth tiger that’s going to eat me and so this is why I feel, and I have that same energy, but it’s not. I don’t know. It’s a mobile app that’s slower than it should be. There’s no saber tooth tiger out there, so I’m going to do something else.

Showing people that that’s okay, and that’s normal I think that is one of the best gifts that you can give other people. Is yes, we’re all just chemical biological beings at the beginning of these, and we have all the choices in the world to go somewhere else. And in terms of facilitation, like biological facilitation, just noticing, acknowledging and speaking to that, it’s so powerful.

Douglas Ferguson:

Absolutely. Even in a room, if things get tense, oftentimes the tendency is to pretend it didn’t exist, change the subject, move on. Actually taking a moment, just like we need to notice in our bodies when we’re having a personal response, if there’s a group response or someone’s experiencing something in the room that’s created tension or uncertainty, just taking a moment to say, “I’m noticing that …” X, Y, Z. Fill in the blank. “How does everyone feel about that? What does that mean?” And allow the group to then do some group problem solving together. Turn it into a dialogue where we notice together. It can create a lot of opportunity for better understanding, better collaboration, and better empathy. Because we can really start to get at the core of like, well, why did that surface and can be really powerful. I think way better than to sweeping under the rug.

Nathan Hughes:

Oh, and the connection possibilities with that as well.

Douglas Ferguson:

Oh yeah.

Nathan Hughes:

We all know that you go through a very difficult whatever together as a team. That team is so strong. hey can individually be on the opposite sides of everything. They would never be friends, they would never hang out, they would never whatever. But you set a group of people through a very difficult situation, they start and get through that difficult situation together. Why are they so tight? Why are they so strong? I think because that creates so many situations for all of that to be stripped and for that raw reaction and response to be bare, to be visible, and to see that that’s okay. And no one’s going to kick you out of the group. No one’s going to send you to the side. Everyone’s going through that. And once you see that, you trust, you get this feeling of trust and this feeling of connection. It might take a year to develop that in a more calm, normal way. Might take two weeks to do that in a really difficult project that you’re in the trenches with someone together.

And I think one-on-one, that’s also a place where this comes in. A lot of times, oh, we’re the facilitator. You know what that means? I’m the boss. I’m in control. Oh, I’ve got to have the answer. Oh, you know what? The movie moment, Independence Day president speech. That’s what I have to end every session with. And the goosebumps and everyone’s cheer … No. It’s not true. It’s not true at all. And sometimes the best thing that I can come up with one-on-one … Maybe in a group, but one-on-one when someone’s just dropped something is telling them wow. All I can think to say is, I have this … My whole body, I feel like I’m on fire just hearing that. Tell me more. I don’t have anything else. I don’t have any insight to that. All I can do is share and connect how that has impacted me or that connection with someone else. And I don’t need anything other than that. I don’t need to give them any of the words and some logic or some solution. That’s hardly ever going to be the thing that really works. All I can do is show them, yes, I’m also human sitting on the other side of you, and this is the humanity that I am feeling and it’s on display.

Douglas Ferguson:

You talked about the team or creating opportunities for them to be more wild and free. I’m curious if you have any stories that exemplify the team rising to that occasion?

Nathan Hughes:

So in terms of a workshop, there’s a workshop that I used to do. Haven’t done it in years. And I learned it from … Oh my gosh. Where is this? Harvard Business School? They had a negotiation workshop and I went years ago. Six, seven, eight years. And the idea is you have everyone stand up, there’s some physicality of it. You have a room and you need a group and you present a question to the group. And I haven’t done this in a while, so it might be fuzzy. But basically the question is, Hey, here’s corn. Everyone knows what corn is. And is corn a vegetable? Is it a grain/ is it a fruit? And I think there’s a fourth. Whichever one you move different corners or whatever. And so the intent of this is to show the power of a group or one person in a group having a strong opinion and how that affects. And then you go through a couple rounds of debate, mini debate.

We think it’s this because. No, we think it’s that because. And the spoiler on this … I hope I’m not spoiling corn for anyone. The spoiler is there is a definition for corn that fits every single one of these things. It is a plant, it is a vegetable. The FDA will define it in all of these different ways. It is a grain versus plant, versus … So anything anyone said is right. But what happens in the room as they’re up … And their whole bodies are engaged because you have to move around and you have to come in. It’s intentional. You bring them all into the center to debate a certain thing, and then they move. And so you have detractors that move to a different corner and the whole room is like, “Ooh, look at that.” And one group usually collects the most and they’ve won. And then you just put up all the boring government pages and words that say, oh yeah, every single person is right because there’s no definitive.

And what happens? I think the energy around that and what you do up in the front is prep that group to use the group dynamic as something that motivates their behavior. So you open it up. You’re trying to break down some of these, oh, I want to stand as … No. You see someone, they give a good argument, go over there. Jump ship immediately, and this and that and do. And so that workshop or that little exercise is something that I love because it does lean so heavily into what it feels like when you are in a group doing something as a group with your brain and your body and how that energy can be so dynamic.

Douglas Ferguson:

Yeah. Even just getting people to move around.

Nathan Hughes:

It’s so hard.

Douglas Ferguson:

Is an amazing thing to do. And it can be hard as you say, but if we can get people doing it, the more they embody something that you connect to it in other ways. It comes back to the chemistry stuff we were talking about earlier.

Nathan Hughes:

There’s another thing that I have done a couple of times with certain teams. You know you … Whatever it is. It’s a meeting, it’s a group, it’s something recurring. And you’ve got the same people that show up and this is more physical space. But same group shows up, physical space, sits down. The place they sit down that very first meeting is the place they will try to sit down for the rest of their lives. Until they’re in the grave they will want that same spot. And what I’ve done, and what I’ve noticed is sometimes … I do a lot of change management. Sometimes when you do change management, the first thing you need to do is signal that it’s time for change. Changing seat is such a violation of the norm and the status quo that I believe that nothing … It’s one of the most powerful ways to signal yeah, we have to do something different and we’re starting off by, you can’t sit in that same seat. And you have to sit somewhere else. And it’s nothing. It’s so meaningless. It doesn’t matter. This is a meeting room. This isn’t someone’s desk, office, chair, whatever. It’s just we’re in this meeting room and you always sit next to her this or so that.

The physicality of it is so important at even the most minor, meaningless, smallest levels, people get so upset and so offended at that smallest … And that’s the intent. Because I’m sitting up there saying, yes, we have to dramatically change. We can never do the same thing that we just did. And it starts here with that’s why I’m on this side of the room versus that, or that’s why I’m this seat and everyone … Because that model in your head has to break it. It has to start breaking somewhere. And as facilitators, I think one thing that we need to do is look for the ways that we can drive whatever we’re trying to achieve in a room. Whatever we’re trying to help a group or a team move towards with all of the different senses. And we talk a lot about the visual side and the sound side, but the physicality is harder in a more remote world, but the physicality is just as important and sometimes more important because it is stunted in a lot of our white-collar professional lives. And so any little bit of physicality is like a gigantic bolt of lightning.

Douglas Ferguson:

Yeah. The seats a fascinating thing. There’s a strong sense of identity when it comes to where you’re sitting. There’s a reason why people bring their photos of their family and decorate their little area. It’s their little slice of the office that they’ve planted a flag on. But there are other ways that identity shows up and it has a big impact on change management because if people have created some roots around their identity in this place, that needs to shift now because there’s some change coming that can be really scary for folks. They feel like they’re having to sacrifice that piece of their identity or they’re getting uprooted. I’m curious how much you’ve noticed these things or if you have some interesting facilitation, style tactics that help with people as they’re struggling with that identity shift.

Nathan Hughes:

That’s a good question. That’s a big one. Because you’re right. It is fundamental to change management. If you’re doing something that’s worth a change management process, it probably means it’s big enough that it’s important and it counts in some way. It might count towards titles or promotions or raises or something performance. And it is responsible for results that matter. Why would you do a change management process to change something that doesn’t matter? And so knowing that you’ve got to prepare yourself for that. There are a couple of things that I see. And one is getting down to the bare metal in terms of transparency around what you’re trying to achieve. I think what I’ve learned is it’s seldom worth spending a lot of time talking about why the old thing needs to change. But sometimes that’s the trap. You feel like, oh, I’m going to explain why the old thing didn’t work or was bad or this or that. And all you’re doing is re-centering and focusing on and making sure that that old thing is still the center of attention.And so what I’ve learned is I have to do all of that work, but only on the new stuff. Here’s why. Here’s what we’re going … Here’s where we’re … And I think in terms of change management, you never rely on someone just knowing.

So whenever I’m doing a change management process, I’m listening in my head and things I’m writing. Did I use just? Oh, it’s just this. Oh, that’s a warning. Simply. Oh, that’s a warning. I’m assuming. Any assumption obviously is going to be wrong because any group is going to have every one of those beliefs and your assumptions in a change management process become deviations or invalidations of identity as minor or as innocent as you think they are. You are insulting someone if you accidentally invalidate their identity.

And so I’m looking for places where I’m assuming it’s going to be simple or obvious, straightforward. It’s just going to be that. I’m looking for that kind of thing. And I need to keep painting a picture of here’s why and what we’re doing. Here’s what we’re trying to achieve, here’s what we’re trying to change for this result. And the result is very important. We want to make this thing happen this way. And showing how that world might look when that change has happened is super important. So what is my role? What is my job? I’m this and you’re going to make this change in how we do … I don’t know. I’m a project manager. I’m going to make this change in how we price projects. How do I … Okay. I know that we price projects wrong, but it’s still a way that I know and I’m comfortable with. What am I doing in detail? And that’s so hard because a lot of times you don’t know yet. You’ve got to go through the change manager, but you have to be able to talk through it. You have to be able to show this.

And then I think every change management process needs to have a very dedicated and intentional mechanism to assign out parts of that change management process to the actual folks that are impacted. We need this result. I need you to figure out how this thing works as part of that.

Douglas Ferguson:

That’s so key.

Nathan Hughes:

And this other person, you or this role, I need you to figure out how we get to … You know what? The change is we need to go from 63 over here to 92. That part of it, please figure out how to do that. Also, I’m going to tell the organization, you’re in charge of doing that. I’m going to rally up all the support you need because you’re not operating on your scale, you’re operating on a strategic scale, not an individual scale. So people need to support you and people need to and it’s visible. I need you to do this work. And when that happens, I am validating and judging it based on does it get me to the result? I’m trying my damnedest to get rid of that oh, I’m in charge. So let me look at how you’re actually doing it and give you all the judgment there. I’m trying not to do that. Now I’ll look at it and if I know it won’t work for some reason, I might try to carefully … oh, this is … Yes that. Whatever. But a lot of times, I would say more often than not, that’s not the problem. Is the actual change … We want to get to this result, let me look at how that’s working and involving folks very intentionally and specifically in getting to the … Do I do that all the time? No.

Douglas Ferguson:

That plays a role too in the everyday facilitation stuff. Because if we’re not clear on the results we’re seeking, then people can’t step in with novel ideas of how to shape the future and they’re just slaves to whatever vision or whatever tactics you have already laid out.

Nathan Hughes:

Exactly.

Douglas Ferguson:

And that’s tiring. Anyone who’s leading them that way must be exhausted all the time.

Nathan Hughes:

Yeah. I have come across a couple and I just watch in awe. Like, wow, you have the energy to really direct and mandate all 90 little details of … Okay. Bless you for that, but I could never even comprehend that. That’s so much work. And you’re right, it’s only going to be as good as that person. And a lot of times that person is pretty good. They’re in that position because they were pretty good. But no one person is pretty good forever and no one person’s pretty good is always better than a few people’s innovation and best. And so you’ve got to be willing to take that risk in opening that up in order to get better results.

Douglas Ferguson:

I couldn’t agree more. And we could carry this conversation on for a very long time. It’s been really fine, but we do have to bring it to a close here. And as we wrap up, there’s a couple of things that I’d love to hear your thoughts on. One is you’ve got this unique background as a technology leader, as someone who’s made these pivots from purely creating, developing, launching technical products and services to thinking about people ops and then all this change management work. And so I’m curious what advice you might have for technology leaders and just this importance of adaptive leadership and facilitation. And also maybe just a final thought. So what advice do you have for other technical leaders and then how do you want to leave our listeners today?

Nathan Hughes:

So for other technology folks that are maybe like me directly … I used to work for a living writing code and now I no longer do that. I don’t know if I have advice, but the thing that I will acknowledge is you’re exactly right. You’re absolutely right. It was so much fun writing code and it was so satisfying to have that direct feedback that I did a day’s worth of work and did something for real and now I can see it. At the end of the day, something has changed. It is so different and I will say so much more difficult to find value or find satisfaction as you get away from that direct one-on-one. So there’s an acknowledgement that I’m going to offer up that you’re exactly right. It was a lot easier and sometimes a lot more directly fun to be that.

And so if you want to expand up and out in more management or more leadership or more strategy or more whatever it’s called in your world, you’ve got to do two things. One, you have to readjust and understand how you’re going to find satisfaction and value out of much less direct and much more abstract results. And how are you going to find that personal satisfaction when you can’t take responsibility for anything really that’s going on because it’s a team that did it, or it’s these other folks that are … It’s this or it’s this process running and etc. So there’s that.

And then the second bit is fill that gap of direct creation with something. Anything. You need a hobby. If you’re a direct technology person moving into leadership management, you better get yourself a hobby where you can be a direct builder of something else. And I don’t care if it’s a hobby, you’re still in technology or it’s a hobby … Woodworking is mine. Or it’s a hobby … Something. You’ve got to keep and create for yourself a way to directly contribute so you can have that little selfish bit of satisfaction of your thing that you do. And also continue to work on how do I value and how do I enjoy the larger, less directed work that I am achieving results in. So that’s what I would say if you’re in my spot and that’s what I’ve learned for me.

Douglas Ferguson:

Wise words.

Nathan Hughes:

I think a final thought is you can change how you react and respond to this biology. Like this point that we were talking about, my final thought is I think it is possibly the most powerful thing you can do to rewire and retrain your body and your brain to abandon the ways that you’ve learned in the past as a child or whatever … All of us survived childhood. None of us get through child. We all survived childhood. So the way that we survived childhood, retraining yourself to use those exact same responses. Take those skills, take those strengths forward, but then decide how you want those to be in your actual professional world, your adult world, your different in your non-child world. My final thought is there’s nothing more powerful and satisfying than being able to do that. And you’ll be doing it forever. You never get to stop doing that, but that’d be my final thought.

Douglas Ferguson:

That sounds like a worthwhile journey. Thanks for being on the show, Nate. I really appreciate it.

Nathan Hughes:

Thank you. This was fun.

Douglas Ferguson:

Thanks for joining me for another episode of the Facilitation Lab podcast. If you enjoyed the episode, please leave us a review and be sure to subscribe and receive updates when new episodes are released. We love listener tales and invite you to share your facilitation stories. Send them to us on LinkedIn or via email. If you want to know more. Head over to our blog or I post weekly articles and resources about facilitation, team dynamics and collaboration. Voltagecontrol.com.

The post How Can Facilitation Transform Leadership in Times of Change? appeared first on Voltage Control.

“I take the opportunity to build culture and connection with that team to make them stronger. And that’s something that’s really rewarding for me—when I leave the process to see after nine months of working with them that this team is much more close, more connected, and trusts each other more..”- Julie Baeb

In this episode of the Facilitation Lab podcast, host Douglas Ferguson speaks with Julie Baeb, a Senior Consultant at Team Works. Julie shares her diverse career journey from advertising to architecture and eventually education, where she developed a STEM enrichment program. They discuss pivotal moments in Julie’s facilitation career, including a transformative professional development session and a human-centered design retreat she led for school administrators. Julie emphasizes the importance of icebreakers, observation, and incorporating play and movement into sessions to foster engagement and psychological safety. The episode highlights Julie’s commitment to building strong, connected teams through thoughtful facilitation.

Show Highlights

[00:01:40] Building Community through Facilitation
[00:07:02] Authentic Experiences and Human-Centered Design
[00:13:38] Observation and Innovation
[00:15:38] Observation in Facilitation
[00:22:28] The Role of Play and Embodiment
[00:29:59] Facilitating Children vs. Adults
[00:36:17] Challenges in Building Culture

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About the Guest

Julie Baeb is a senior consultant at TeamWorks where she partners with education leaders in public school districts to improve systems and experiences of students, staff and families. Innovation and creative problem-solving is a common thread throughout her career, with past roles in advertising, architecture and K12 education. Julie holds a Masters Degree in Architecture from Rhode Island School of Design and a bachelor’s degree in Journalism and Mass Communication from Drake University. 

About Voltage Control

Voltage Control is a facilitation academy that develops leaders through certifications, workshops, and organizational coaching focused on facilitation mastery, innovation, and play. Today’s leaders are confronted with unprecedented uncertainty and complex change. Navigating this uncertainty requires a systemic facilitative approach to gain clarity and chart pathways forward. We prepare today’s leaders for now and what’s next.

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Transcript

Douglas Ferguson:

Hi, I’m Douglas Ferguson. Welcome to the Facilitation Lab podcast where I speak with Voltage Control certification alumni and other facilitation experts about the remarkable impact they’re making. We embrace a method agnostic approach so you can enjoy a wide range of topics and perspectives as we examine all the nuances of enabling meaningful group experiences. This series is dedicated to helping you navigate the realities of facilitating collaboration, ensuring every session you lead becomes truly transformative. Thanks so much for listening. If you’d like to join us for a live session sometime, you can join our Facilitation Lab community. It’s an ideal space to apply what you learn in the podcast in real time with peers. Sign up today at voltagecontrol.com/facilitation-lab. If you’d like to learn more about our 12-week facilitation certification program, you can read about it at voltagecontrol.com.

Today I’m with Julie Baeb at TeamWorks, where she works as a senior consultant. Julie partners with education leaders and public school districts to improve systems and experiences of students, staff, and families. Welcome to the show, Julie.

Julie Baeb:

Thanks, Douglas. I’m really happy to be here.

Douglas Ferguson:

It’s great to have you, and I’m really looking forward to our conversation. What an amazing pre-show chat we had and lots of interesting things to dig into.

Julie Baeb:

Yeah.

Douglas Ferguson:

So just to start off, I’d love to hear … I know that there’s a couple of moments that were pivotal for you that informed your opinions, your early experiences with facilitation. I’d love to hear a little bit more about those.

Julie Baeb:

Well, I started out … well, I’ve had kind of a meandering career path. I started out actually in advertising, ended up getting my degree in architecture, worked in that field for about 10 years, and then found myself in the world of education, K-12 education, and taking my background in architecture, I started creating and building a STEM-based enrichment program for elementary school students. I had an opportunity to attend a professional development session in my district. It was like a summer institute kind of deal, and I signed up and sent in an application. I was able to make it into the course, and I was really excited to take this learning, apply it to what I was doing with my STEM students. I remember right away just being captivated by even just the opener, the way she built community with the group.

It was fun and I thought … I’m like, “Wow, okay. So these meetings and sessions, they don’t have to be boring and sit and get. They can be interactive and with this group of …” We have a big district, there was a lot of different people in the room I’d never met, and by the end of the session, we’re exchanging phone numbers and we’re feeling connected and how can I support you in this work? But she did that. She facilitated that for us, to the point where we were each other’s cheerleaders. But that doesn’t just happen. You can’t just walk into a room and … someone needs to facilitate that experience. So I remember thinking to myself, “Huh, that’s cool. This is a job. She goes around in districts and does this”, and it stood out to me.

Douglas Ferguson:

What do you think was so pivotal to creating that environment that allowed people or just encouraged people to start exchanging phone numbers and have those deeper connections? Do you remember any qualities or anything that showed up for you there?

Julie Baeb:

I mean, it’s silly, but I think there is power in those welcome activities, connecting icebreakers. People gloss over those and are like, “That’s silly”, and “Oh, that’s lame”, but actually it’s super critical and not only to do it in the opener, but in the closing activity to bring the community. I remember … I think one of the activities, and it was at the end, we just did a rock, paper, scissors tournament where you do rock, paper, scissors and the winner moves on to find someone else, but the loser is the cheerleader. So you stay behind the person and you keep cheering to the point where the two finalists and everyone is literally screaming and cheering and clapping for the two finalists, but it actually carries over. It actually is like … you leave, “Yeah, way to go”, and you’re excited for the winners and also just excited to help each other and support each other.

I don’t know. It created a vibe in the room by doing that, and I think sometimes we overlook the power of that. And so it’s critical to me, even when I facilitate a really simple Zoom meeting, I always have some kind of connection, welcome activity opener, I think it’s really important, and a close. I always want to have a moment to reflect on what happened in the meeting, so that’s important for me to do that too.

Douglas Ferguson:

I know, there’s this kind of undercurrent of icebreakers are cheesy, and why waste our time doing that? But to your point, so powerful if they’re done well. I don’t know if you noticed this, but you talked about when you remembered the occasion about each other’s cheerleaders, and then you’re telling a story about a rock, paper, scissor tournament where the whole point is to be cheerleaders.

Julie Baeb:

I know.

Douglas Ferguson:

So that’s funny use of words there, right?

Julie Baeb:

Actually, any activity in any of my workshops, I think I spend a lot of time thinking about how is this connected to the purpose of the session. It’s not trivial or just, “Oh, that’d be fun. I literally think about”, okay, how can I drive the message through the activity … just like rock, paper, scissors, and we have each other’s back, you don’t know it at the time, and it’s just fun, but to have an activity that supports ultimately the purpose of the session, that’s something that I think about a lot.

Douglas Ferguson:

A super important point you brought up there, and it makes me think about something we often talk about, which is if you do something with a group and you turn to the group afterwards and say, “Why did we just do that?” and everyone’s like, just staring back at you with blank stairs, then maybe you should turn that question inward. So I think it’s super critical, and probably the number one reason why people don’t like icebreakers is because folks just grab something out of the grab bag without thinking much about it.

Julie Baeb:

Right, and I think the other thing … I mean, with my background as a STEM teacher and an architect, I’m really visual, and it’s important to me to make every experience authentic. When I was a STEM teacher, we’re not just going to talk about bridges, we’re going to build a bridge. I mean, my coworkers would go … I’m like, “You guys, we should build a real bridge. We should walk on it.” I was always thinking that way, like how can we make this as real as possible, life-size as possible? That’s always going through my brain. That still carries over in my work with adults.

I mean, there was a session I facilitated. When I was still in education before I was a consultant, I facilitated a day long human-centered design retreat for the administrators in our district, so all the directors, department leads, the superintendent, all the principals in the district, they come together for a two-day retreat in the summer, and one day was focused on human-centered design, and I facilitated for them to just identify problems in their department or in their school, and then to be able to solve that through rapid prototyping. Then they presented to the whole group what they came up with.

But as I was thinking about this and collaborating with my colleagues on designing it, I’m like, well, the first step in human-centered design is gaining empathy for your user. Well, we can’t just guess at that. We have to have kids. So I literally arranged for a busload of kids, and they came to this offsite location. It wasn’t even at the district, it was in the middle of the summer, and it was quite an effort, but we got a busload of kids, and it was a surprise. So they didn’t know the kids were coming. So I do this big intro on what HCD is and do our welcoming activities, and then we talk about empathy, how to gain empathy, ask them to write some questions. What would you ask a student regarding this problem that your department or your school is facing?

Then literally doors open and the kids came in and sat down with the administrators, and then the administrators had an opportunity to interview those students. Then later the kids actually collaborated on the prototype and got to listen to the presentations of the solutions at the end of the session.

Douglas Ferguson:

I love that, and as a huge fan of prototypes, super curious, what was the nature of the prototype? Prototypes can take on all sorts of forms, and so I’m curious in that moment, what kind of materials was it made out of and how did it take shape?

Julie Baeb:

I’m a big fan of prototypes too, Douglas, and being a former architect, I’m all about build it, make it and then that will tell you what you need, right?

Douglas Ferguson:

Yes.

Julie Baeb:

I mean, prototypes are not just to get information, the test from the user, it’s also for the designer. As you make it … I used to tell my students, your hands have brains. So sometimes you overthink and you’re like, “I don’t know”, and you’re trying to put this thing together. Sometimes you just got to start working and you got to start making it, and then it will tell you, it’ll inform you as a designer what to do next. So in that particular session, and it was a super-fast sprint, I did do everything from pipe cleaner’s paper, make a model to act it out. So I encouraged them to do just a play it out, show us. So put a name tag on, make a costume.

One of the building and grounds team had … it was regarding vape detectors in the bathrooms at the high school, but they play out a whole scenario with someone’s the student, someone’s the … the alarm goes off. So they played it out. They literally played it out, and I think some people too, there were some scheduling, things about bell schedule or changing the schedule, so they drew out the schedule. So it was just like … but everything, when you actually create it, when you actually make it, when you write it down, when you build it, then there’s something to respond to. So those students could look at the prototypes that the administrators made and say, “Oh, yeah, but that’s not going to work.” So I’m a big fan of prototypes, and I still try to implement or build that into the work I do at TeamWorks now today through different design change facilitation work that we do. It’s important.

Douglas Ferguson:

It reminds me of building physical things like woodworking and whatnot. It’s like if you’ve got 50 pieces to cut, you’re probably going to cut one piece and make sure that it fits and that you didn’t transpose a measurement or something, right?

Julie Baeb:

Oh, yeah.

Douglas Ferguson:

And once you’ve got confidence, then you can kind of do things at scale, you can move faster. This idea of hands having intelligence I think is really neat.

Julie Baeb:

It helps me. I think because when I was in architecture school, I was an overthinker. I mean, I still maybe am a little bit, but I went into that experience. I had to stop overthinking. There was a deadline. I had a model I had to produce by 8:00 AM the next day, and I just had to make it, and I learned a lot from that. I apply a lot of that now, that just don’t overthink it, your hands have brains. Just start building the slide deck. Just start making the thing.

Douglas Ferguson:

I love that you had them acting things out, and there’s a method in Liberating Structures called improv prototyping. It’s basically a structure, loose structure, around this idea of, well, if we engage in some curious exploration as a group, we might solve the problem more so than just thinking. So that’s the idea that not only our hands, but our bodies can have intelligence. My favorite story about that is there was a clinic that was plagued with MRSA, and they were trying to figure out solutions to it, and so they were going around and saying, “All right, well, what’s our protocol for patients?” They were kind of going through these motions together, watching, “Well, how do we respond to this? How do we respond to that?” One of the things they noticed is when the doctor was leaning over the patient, the neck tie was dragging all around the patient. It’s like, “Oh, that’s a vector of transmission.”

Julie Baeb:

Yeah. Right? Oh, man. I mean, the power of observation is huge. There is a district that provides special education services for a group of metro area districts, and we did a big project with them trying to figure out … they have a big wait list, more students want to be there than they can accommodate, and trying to figure out how to have those students be served and not be on a wait list. The one thing that I really pushed for was just observe. Let’s observe what’s happening in the classroom. Let’s observe what’s in those member district sites and not make assumptions as a design team what needs to be done. Let’s just go see what’s happening. So just like the observation of the doctor and the tie, noticing that there’s some ways actually that this intermediate district can support the classroom teachers before the student even gets referred.

There’s some tools, there’s some processes and ways that we can support them and coach them without the student having to leave that member district. So noticing that, like, “Oh, what if we shared this resource? What if we coached them on this way of handling that situation?” But you wouldn’t know that without observing and seeing and being in the room to start to realize some solutions. I really do believe a lot of powerful ideas come out of, again, connecting with the user, understanding their needs, talking to them directly or observing them. There’s actually … I coached a student innovation team back when I was in that school district role, and they were middle schoolers, and the kickoff was “Go observe.” I mean, literally there’s a schedule, there’s an interviewing schedule, and there was an observation schedule and a rotation for half a day. So we had some kids that were just going in classrooms and just sitting there, and they were like, “What are we supposed to do?” I’m like, “No, just watch.”

So there’s one group that came back and said, “You know what’s kind of interesting, Mrs. Baeb?” I’m like, “What?” “Everybody puts their stuff on the floor. They don’t put it on …” Because the desk is tiny. They’re those old school with the built-in desk and the chair. So they have their iPad, they have books, they have notebooks, they have their water bottle, they might have a pencil bag. So all this stuff is sitting on the floor. Ultimately, they were able to create something that they called the seat saddle. It literally is a cushioned thing that you put on a regular student chair with little saddle bags on the side so that you can slide the iPad and the notebooks. This was actually produced by Education Furniture Company here in Minnesota and made it into their catalog and actually got produced and made and so .. Anyway, it was an interesting partnership with them and the idea of coming up with ideas just through observation.

Douglas Ferguson:

That’s super cool. The power of the improv prototyping is that you can simulate these observation moments, because sometimes perhaps the group isn’t totally bought in to the power of observation or it’s going to be really costly or inconvenient to put ourselves in an observation situation. So let’s simulate it. Then when we learn things in the simulation, then there’s a lot of hunger. They’re like, “Oh, let me pay attention when I’m in these moments, too.”

Julie Baeb:

Right. So true.

Douglas Ferguson:

How would you say observation shows up in your facilitation style?

Julie Baeb:

I think you do have to read the crowd and know when you need to pivot, when there’s strong emotion or when something … you need to spend more time there. I was just facilitating a session last week with a group of staff that were just internally bumping up against each other, some differences, and just from a culture standpoint, things weren’t very solid. There’s some kind of gossiping and just not connected and aligned, and so you kind of do have to start up here. You can’t dig into that right off the bat. So we kind of worked our way down through the levels to get to that point. But to just kind of pause and observe when … there are moments where you see some tension or you need to stop and talk about, “Okay, let’s talk more about that”, or “Let’s address that.”

I mean, as a facilitator, I think it’s your job. You have to be courageous and name things that you see, but make people feel safe too. I mean, it’s a balancing act to be able to facilitate those hard conversations and notice when you need to pause. But we … actually, speaking of Liberating Structures, I used TRIZ in that session, and the group started out by defining their department’s purpose and then their desired culture. Then that question, you throw in, “Okay, so how could we fail miserably at achieving that desired culture and the purpose that we’ve defined for our department?” What’s nice about it is people laugh. They’re saying silly things, but then they’re saying some real things too, and taking that moment to then stop and say what on this list are we remotely maybe a little bit actually doing here? When they circled it and kind of stood back, and then that’s where the hard conversations kind of began, but what can we do about it?

So ending on what are some action steps we could take to stop doing this or start doing X, Y, Z. I just have to say Liberating Structures, and I learned about that through my certification with Voltage Control, that was such a great resource. I come back to it weekly. I literally use those … I mean, I use them in all my sessions now. I think what’s so great about my training and what I learned with Voltage Control through the certification, I mean, before I was very well versed in how to facilitate a human-centered design workshop, and there were steps, and I just kind of did it with students. I did it with staff, families, community. I knew how to do it, administrators. But once I learned about Liberating Structures and other techniques, it’s great. It’s just like … more of a recipe.

These are ingredients. This is the purpose of the session. What do I need to pull in order to achieve that outcome? Always when I work with my clients, one of my first questions is, what does success look like when we’re done in three hours, when we’re done in four hours? Then that gives me that purpose and what I’m aiming for, and I can pull in every activity, every icebreaker, every moment to converge and make a decision. It’s all grounded in that purpose and Liberating Structures, I do, I pull from that all the time.

Douglas Ferguson:

It’s a fantastic repository. I think you’re hitting on something there that I think is true for a lot of folks. If I were to really take a step back, I could tie it into something you said even earlier, which is … I think it was in the pre-show chats. I don’t think this came up yet, but a lot of people relate to this idea of being an accidental facilitator, doing the things, but not really having the vocabulary of realizing necessarily what you’re doing or that you’re showing up in those ways. Then you start to key in on it. Usually the keying in on it is related to some sort of framework methodology, or it could be industry specific.

So design thinking is a popular one. A lot of times those have recipes and, “Oh, here’s how you do it. Just go through this checklist and you’re good.” Then the next level of mastery is when you start to realize, “Okay, I can kind of improv a little bit here because now I’ve learned enough tools. I’ve started to see how things fit together in different ways, and now I can assemble things that are really custom and really bespoke for the group that’s coming together.”

Julie Baeb:

I was just a human-centered design, design thinking facilitator machine. I kept doing it over and over again. I think where I started to break away was there was some professional development that I was facilitating for our district. I was collaborating with some colleagues that … it was all about how space shapes your learning and learning experiences, the power of your environment. With my architecture background, when I heard about this opportunity, I was like, “Yes, yes. Sign me up, I’ll help.” So I started facilitating these cohorts of teachers meet four times a year, and there’s where the riff started coming in as far as facilitating the thinking and the creativity, but it wasn’t fully a script of human-centered design, do this, this, this. Then things started to kind of domino. After that administrative retreat I talked about, there were department heads who came to me and said, “Could you help me? Our department’s having this problem. Could you come for a half a day?” “Sure.”

And then I was like, “Oh, this is a little bit different. Okay, how do I … ” There was a foundation for our district that called on me and said, “Could you facilitate a session?” Again, I started just asking that question, what does success look like? I had to just say, “What do you want out of this time with your group? What do you want to achieve? What do you want to accomplish?” Then I just had to really pull back and think, okay, what would get us there? How could we do that? But still always making it fun. I mean, I think with my background in teaching and architecture, I love to bring the fun and the creativity. I mean, people just light up. They’re more engaged.

I mean, even I bring Legos to my sessions. I have a prompt to have about with educators, what is your purpose as an educator, and then build it. So then they have to build it with Legos. There’s just nuances that come when you build your purpose versus just tell your elbow partner, “This is my purpose as an educator.” Some little things come out, little stories and little snippets about the person when you take Legos and build it. It’s different.

Douglas Ferguson:

It’s that hand-brain connection again that we were talking about earlier.

Julie Baeb:

Yes, absolutely.

Douglas Ferguson:

Love that. I’m seeing this theme of play emerge again, which you spoke to briefly when you were mentioning TRIZ. People laughing, and then the truth was coming in around the edges of that laughter. Or maybe oftentimes I’ve noticed the room is getting really boisterous in a TRIZ, and I’m like, “Oh, we’re going to have some real juice at the end of this” because they’re willing to say some stuff when they’re in that mode. I don’t think there’s enough dialogue around … I mean, sure, there’s lots of stuff around play, creativity, laughter, and the power of it, but I don’t think there’s a lot of conversation around laughter and psychological safety. It seems to me, as I’m reflecting on it now and thinking about my experiences and what you’re saying is that’s really all unlocked for teams. If they’re laughing together, they tend to feel more safe and act in ways that would indicate safety.

Julie Baeb:

Absolutely. I think another Liberating Structure, but the 25-10 crowdsourcing, I’ve used that a couple times. I think there’s something about … I don’t know why … that one’s a playful one too, though. When you’re putting the ideas and you’re shuffling around the group and scoring it, but there’s less pressure than if we sat and looked at chart paper, which ideas are the best ones here, and I like this one. It’s like there’s something when you gamify it where you’re writing down the idea and it’s anonymous and people are just scoring it and passing around, I play music so people are dancing and they’re passing along the cards, that make it … it lightens the mood. It makes it less, I don’t know, heavy and serious. But then you can still analyze it and you can say, “Yeah, I like this idea. I don’t like this idea.”

I think it also gives voice to everybody in the room. It levels the playing field because there definitely is a dynamic with leaders and authority and people backing off on sharing their opinions when they think, “Well, they’re the decision makers, so they’ll just decide anyway.” So when you find ways to give a voice to everyone in the room that’s been invited to contribute, that’s a good way to do it.

Douglas Ferguson:

Absolutely. It’s certainly one of my favorites, and it’s interesting too that you talked about there’s a lot of dynamics going on there, but you made me think on the overanalyzing piece. There’s certainly this phenomenon of because of the speed and because the music’s going, everyone’s moving around, everyone’s standing too, and they know … especially after round one, they know, “Okay, I’m going to have to shuffle this pretty quick, so I just got to score this thing”, I think it forces people to really go with their gut versus really overthink it. So they might actually score something higher than they would’ve, and they might be willing to take bigger risks because they’re going with what really feels true to them.

Julie Baeb:

I think that’s so true. I think I’ve spent also, just when I think about my career, so much of it overthinking and being logical versus going with my gut. I’ve just started embracing my gut in the last, I don’t know, five, 10 years. It works pretty well. I think a lot of us don’t trust it and overthink, and I am trying to go with my gut more.

Douglas Ferguson:

There’s a lot of fun ways to bring in embodiment into activities, and I think that’s a big part of 25-10 too, is that people are getting on their feet, they’re moving around, they’re handing these cards to each other. So it can be fantastic to get people just up and moving. I mean, even something as simple as a human histogram. What ways have you experimented with embodiment or just kind of movement in the space?

Julie Baeb:

Well, it’s important to me that there’s a play back and forth, that you’re not just in your chair. I do a lot of virtual sessions too, and I do have some background in, when I was in that school district, prior to my consulting job, we actually had … as a training PD session, I was an innovation coach and supported … we had at the time a crowdsource innovation program where staff could submit ideas to make the district better, and I came alongside those … what we called idea champions to help develop proof of concept of their idea, and the innovation coaches … we had the opportunity to partner with Brave New Workshop, they’re an improv group here in Minneapolis, and I learned all sorts of great improv games. I still weave that into my work too. So even with going back to a Zoom call where you’re sitting, sitting, sitting, I’ll just do a shakedown like one, two, three, four, five, six, seven, eight, one two, three, and stuff like that, literally physically move your body because it just, I don’t know, it helps your brain.

People have been sitting all day, and then they have to get into a session with me from 5:00 to 8:00 PM virtually. That’s a lot. So I do try to look at ways to build in physical breaks. I’m mindful of breaks. People need that. You can’t just go, go, go for three hours straight. I think when I plan out my sessions, I think, okay, we’re sitting, now we’re going to turn and talk, now we’re going to get up. Now we’re going to work at chart paper. I do still use chart paper, and part of it, honestly, it’s just to get people standing. So instead of … I do love Mural and tools like that, but I do just really appreciate the need to stand up. So I think about that as I design a session. We’re down, we’re up, we’re moving, and then those welcoming connecting activities, I will literally …

I do a pick a side where it’s like coffee or tea, but I literally get them to physically cross the room. Coffee is on the side, tea is on the side, and people move through the room to go on the coffee side. So I mean, I think about that. I feel like movement is important. I think it helps your thinking and your creativity to move your body. So I try to weave that in.

Douglas Ferguson:

We had a really cool presentation at the summit this year from Solomon Masala, and he had this book called Zoom, and basically it was almost like a puzzle. The front cover of the book was the full picture, but each page of the book was a different zoom level, a different little square within the bigger image, and if you assembled them all together, or as you flip through it, it’s almost like you had a telescopic zoom and you were slowly zooming out. But the thing is, this guy is sitting on a boat, but then his shirt has boats on it. And what he had us do was we couldn’t show anyone in our little square. We had to assemble each other in the right order. So all we could talk about, “I’ve got a guy in a boat.” “Oh, me too.” “Oh, but do you see the whole boat?” “No.”

But meanwhile, you don’t know that, oh, this is the boat on the shirt, or is it the guy that’s on the boat? It’s this really awesome experience around not only bodily movement, but assumptions and communication, a little bit of leadership. When someone makes an epiphany, how are they communicating to that group and getting the group to respond? It was really fun.

Julie Baeb:

Very cool.

Douglas Ferguson:

So as we wrap up, I got one more question just about your work, and then we can kind of pivot to the future real quick and close out. So you’ve had the opportunity to work with children and adults. How would you compare and contrast facilitating children versus adults?

Julie Baeb:

That’s a good question. I think going back to that idea of your hands having brains, I think younger children can embrace that really easily. I think as kids get older, they become overthinkers, like adults, but when they’re younger, I think it’s easy for them to fully embrace that anything is possible. I can make anything. I can do anything. There’s that spirit within children, and that’s fun to see. When I was teaching this hands-on STEM enrichment program, it was always so rewarding. I don’t think kids get enough of that, of just making things and creating things. It’s always here’s the answer, two plus two equals four. Here’s how you do this thing and here’s your worksheet. I was not like that and I just enjoy the lighting up and just the, “oh my goodness, this is so exciting.” That was super rewarding for me, and I miss that actually.

I don’t get to do that anymore, and I do, I miss that of just that pure joy of making something and being the facilitator that helps them get to that solution and create that thing. But I still see that with adults. I still see that joy of, “oh, we came up with an answer”, or, “Oh my goodness …” I see that too with adults. It’s a little bit different, it takes us longer to get there, and we have bigger, weightier problems that we’re working through, but that’s why I do what I do.

As a facilitator, I come to my groups not saying, “I have the answer for you. This is what you should do.” They have the answers. It’s my job to coax it out of them. I did that with kids, and I do it with adults. I just have different tools in my toolkit to get there. But ultimately, it is coming up with these creative solutions and using the wisdom of the group and the room that’s assembled to get there. It’s just maybe a little bit different what we’re making or what we’re coming up with in the end, but similar techniques to get there, actually.

Douglas Ferguson:

I love that, and I especially love the question that seems so simple actually unearthed a critical part or a core component to why you facilitate.

Julie Baeb:

Yeah.

Douglas Ferguson:

Very cool. So as we think about the future and how the world’s evolving, how is that impacting your practice or the way you think about preparing for your practice and how things evolve? You mentioned that unlike the children, the adults have weightier issues. So what’s top of mind for you as you think about your growth and just supporting your clients and your peers and what’s necessary to do the good work right now?

Julie Baeb:

I definitely think, and I support K12 district administrators, leaders, ultimately with the goal to create the best experiences for student, staff and families. We come at that from different ways, different angles, different processes, but I definitely think as I do the work that I do … I mean, culture is so critical and I do feel in the world of education right now there’s definitely … I mean, it’s a very trying time for educators. It’s not a field that people are running to right now. I think that things are getting more complicated and I do see, as I talk with educators, the importance of building trust and a strong culture I think can carry you through and weather any storm, and really facilitation can do that. Sometimes you need an outside perspective, someone else to come in to help you get there, and I do think sometimes it gets overlooked like, “Well, we really need to just focus on getting this done or getting to completing this initiative”, but really looking at your culture and how your staff are connected with one another and using each other as resources, trusting one another.

I think that’s really important, those connections. So when I facilitate, whether it’s a strategic planning process or any work that I do, I take the opportunity to build culture and connection with that team to make them stronger. That’s something that’s really rewarding for me when I leave the process to see after nine months of working with them, that this team is much more close, more connected, trust each other more. I do think that’s needed right now and it’s something that I strive to do and all the work I do with my clients.

Douglas Ferguson:

It’s always difficult in trying times because it’s so easy. I’ve seen so many organizations, it’s almost like defaulting to like, “Well, let’s commiserate the problem”, and that becomes the culture in itself. It’s so top of mind because struggling so much, that’s where our focus goes. Then it’s so hard to ritualize happiness or joy or any of the other things that are really important to bring us together. I once heard it saying, and this comes from my background in technology startups, but a lot of times the strife at technology startups is like, “Oh, well, sales are down and we’re having trouble raising money because we’re not growing. We’re not getting new clients so the investors aren’t losing interest.”

The statement I heard was, “Sales will fix all problems at startups”, which is kind of not entirely true, but certainly I’ve definitely seen situations where the culture was miserable, everything was dire, and then all of a sudden we turn some stuff around sales wise, things get successful, and all of a sudden everyone’s focused on doing what they’re supposed to do, and everything just gets a lot better. So I guess the point is, it’s like culture is easy when things are going well, and it’s always hard when things get tough. So I commend you for stepping into those moments and assisting, and I do agree that having a facilitator to help even just knock people out of the ruts or the norms they might be in as far as a habitual problem, admiration, and being a little more optimistic and thinking about solutions over just stacking up what’s wrong.

Julie Baeb:

absolutely.

Douglas Ferguson:

So anyway, great there. I love it. I guess want to end with giving you an opportunity to leave our listeners with a final thought.

Julie Baeb:

I think all of us can be facilitators, right? I mean, we can facilitate those moments of connection and build stronger culture no matter what you do. I mean, when I was in the facilitation certification course, I met so many interesting people from all these different walks of life that have these different roles, taking these skills to these different industries and different teams of people. But I think really when we gather whatever it is for a workshop or a Zoom call to ask that question, what does success look like at the end, what do I want to accomplish with this group of people, and then to as much as you can inject that play and that fun to make it authentic, to use that time to actually do the work, not just talk about the work, but get it done and to make it fun and playful. I think that ultimately will help your team build a stronger team, be able to come up with better solutions when you’re really thoughtful about the way you gather the group.

Douglas Ferguson:

Absolutely. Well, thank you so much for joining me today and sharing about your journey and about how you’re applying facilitation, and certainly intrigued by some of the challenges that the education system is facing, and so it’s great to hear that folks like yourself are out there helping and applying facilitation skills that’s much needed.

Julie Baeb:

Well, thanks, Douglas. Thanks for having me.

Douglas Ferguson:

It’s been a blast. Thank you.

Thanks for joining me for another episode of the Facilitation Lab podcast. If you enjoyed the episode, please leave us a review and be sure to subscribe to receive updates when new episodes are released. We love listener tales and invite you to share your facilitation stories. Send them to us on LinkedIn or via email. If you want to know more, head over to our blog where I post weekly articles and resources about facilitation, team dynamics and collaboration, voltagecontrol.com.

The post How Observation and Play Enhance Your Facilitation Style appeared first on Voltage Control.

“Now more than ever, we need facilitation, which is different than being a facilitator.”- Jim Kalbach

In this episode of the Facilitation Lab podcast, Douglas Ferguson talks with Jim Kalbach, Chief Evangelist at MURAL and author, about his facilitation journey and expertise in mapping. Jim shares a pivotal experience leading a workshop at LexisNexis and how it propelled his career. He discusses the influence of room setup on collaboration, the power of visual maps for team alignment, and his interest in Wardley maps. Jim also reflects on the evolution of facilitation with technology, the shift to remote workshops, and the future of facilitation as a widespread skill. The episode emphasizes the transformative role of facilitation and visual tools in improving group collaboration.

Show Highlights

[00:03:24] Meeting demand for facilitation
[00:11:03] Impact of physical space on collaboration
[00:16:14] Transformative impact of mapping
[00:18:56] The Wardley Map
[00:24:33] Openness to New Ideas
[00:32:43] Technology and Facilitation
[00:45:32] Facilitation’s impact beyond work

Links | Resources

Jim on Linkedin

About the Guest

Jim Kalbach works at Mural where he’s the Chief Evangelist. He is also the author of several books, including Mapping Experiences and The JTBD Playbook

About Voltage Control

Voltage Control is a facilitation academy that develops leaders through certifications, workshops, and organizational coaching focused on facilitation mastery, innovation, and play. Today’s leaders are confronted with unprecedented uncertainty and complex change. Navigating this uncertainty requires a systemic facilitative approach to gain clarity and chart pathways forward. We prepare today’s leaders for now and what’s next.

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Engage Control The Room

Voltage Control on the Web
Contact Voltage Control

Transcript

Douglas Ferguson:

Hi. I’m Douglas Ferguson. Welcome to the Facilitation Lab Podcast, where I speak with voltage control certification alumni and other facilitation experts about the remarkable impact they’re making. We embrace a method agnostic approach so you can enjoy a wide range of topics and perspectives, as we examine all the nuances of enabling meaningful group experiences. This series is dedicated to helping you navigate the realities of facilitating collaboration, ensuring every session you lead becomes truly transformative.

Thanks so much for listening. If you’d like to join us for a live session sometime, you can join our Facilitation Lab community. It’s an ideal space to apply what you learn in the podcast in real time with peers. Sign up today at voltagecontrol.com/facilitation-lab. If you’d like to learn more about our twelve-week facilitation certification program, you can read about it at voltagecontrol.com. Today I’m with Jim Kalbach at Mural, where he is the chief evangelist. He’s also the author of several books, including Mapping Experiences and the Jobs to Be Done Playbook. Welcome to the show, Jim.

Jim Kalbach:

Great to be here. Looking forward to our conversation, Douglas.

Douglas Ferguson:

Absolutely. It’s always fun to chat with you, Jim. I guess, to get started, let’s hear a little bit about how you got your start. What kind of planted the seed for you with regards to facilitation?

Jim Kalbach:

Yeah, that’s a good question. I think one of the first things that I remember where it was clear that I was the facilitator was a workshop that I did as part of a larger effort around workflow mapping and workflow analysis. This is when I worked at LexisNexis. I was living in Germany at the time and working with our business units around Europe. I had done some field research and created these maps, these diagrams, and that was also a precursor to the book that you mentioned just a moment ago, but that effort came with a workshop, and we did a workshop in Paris at our Paris business unit with about 25 people from around the company. People flew from England, different people from the Paris French business unit were there, and it was a day-long workshop that I led. First of all, there was a pressure going into it, and I had to be really well-prepared.

But given that there were some senior leaders there as well too, I had to really perform and lead them through the agenda that I had, but also show them customer centricity and these things that were new to them as well too. Based on that, then I got all these other gigs from other business units at LexisNexis, and then I kind of became the guy that went around to the different countries and the different business units, and were running these workshops. That wasn’t necessarily the first time that I led a workshop or facilitated a meeting, but that was one, for me, that the bar was much higher for that one, day long. A lot of money invested in it in terms of time and travel and senior leaders there, and I do remember that workshop as being kind of a moment, I should say, where I was like, “Oh. I’m the facilitator, and people are following me and senior leaders are following me.”

Douglas Ferguson:

That sentiment of, “I became the guy or the gal,” is something I hear a lot. It’s like once you do it, people realize you’re good at it, and see what’s possible, when you bring people together in that way, then people start raising their hands, “Can you come help me? Can you come help me?” Do you remember any of those early? What was it like in those early days of getting those requests and there’s more demand for those kinds of experiences?

Jim Kalbach:

Yeah. I mean, it was similar to what you described. There was an experience there that I was able to achieve with that first one in Paris, and it turned into demand. Other people wanted it, and they wanted it from me as well too, so that actually then kicked off a whole series of things. I even flew to Australia. I did some work down there, did some things in the US. I mean, I was literally all over, and I was in demand, basically, I think, in part because I did that one great show, which was, like I said, the bar was a lot higher for me in that game.

Then, it wasn’t about the experience, I think, that people had. I didn’t have any special knowledge and any magic buttons. It was just, “Hey, we want this for our business unit as well too.” I think, in part, it was the subject matter, right? But it was also that idea of bringing people together in a meaningful and thoughtful way, in a structured way that you could literally be in a room together for eight hours, and be productive, collaborative, and get connected with the team as well too. There was a demand for that, and that really kind of elevated my status and kicked my “career off” as a facilitator.

Douglas Ferguson:

Yeah. What do you think was different about that experience versus what people were used to that really created that demand or made them step back and realize like, “Ooh, I want more of that,” or “We need that too”?

Jim Kalbach:

Yeah, I think a couple of things. One, as I mentioned, this was based on a strategic imperative that we had at the time to understand the workflows of our customers deeper. I raised my hand right away and said, “I can map that, because I like maps, Douglas, and I map things,” so I mapped the workflow of our customers, and then I had them all plastered on the walls, right? So, you walked in. Oh, and the other thing that I did too, by the way, which I have a habit of doing, I’m sure you’ll empathize with this, I walk into a room, the first thing I do is rearrange the furniture, right? Because it is like conference style or the UN take council table.

I’m like, “Nope, no table in the middle. We’re doing circles and breakout groups.” So I rearranged the room so that when people walked in, they saw all these breakout groups and maps on the wall, and they’re like, “Wait a minute, this is going to be different.” Then, it was, in part, not only because I had the maps and things like that all over the walls, but we were on our feet most of the time, right? It was, “Okay. Here’s the research, a couple of principles.” I gave him some things. We had a nice discussion. Go into your groups, and you’re on your feet and you guys are trying to solve the problem together, and then we’d come back together and go into breakout groups.

So I think it was a combination of all of those things, the fact that I ran a very, very different type of session than people were maybe used to. “Oh. I’m flying to Paris.” Then, be in a meeting, and they had their notebook ready to take notes or whatever and watch bullet points go by until their eyes glaze over. It wasn’t like that at all, so it was a bunch of factors, I think, that came together. The visualization of it, the setup of the room, the way that it was 50% interactive. I think those were the things, and I say that because those were the things that people then asked me to do. They would say, “Oh. I want that interactive thing with all the maps on the walls.”

Douglas Ferguson:

Yeah. The furniture thing is often overlooked, and I don’t know how many times I’ve run into folks that are just like, “Oh. Well, this is the room I’ve been given,” and it reminds me of doing a workshop at the Air Force, and I walk in and it says “training room,” and all the desks are metal. I swear they weighed like 200 pounds each. We were actually wearing long shirts and ties, and Reagan, and I start moving the desks, and the captain’s like, “Wait a second.” He sees us with our sleeves rolled up in our ties, and he calls a bunch of cadets in and makes them move the desk for us, but anything’s possible. Don’t take the standard layout for granted. You have any good stories about situations where rearranging the room made a huge difference like that?

Jim Kalbach:

Yeah, a couple of them. I’ve been in a situation where I went into the room, and it was a conference table style thing, and it was these heavy glass things, and basically, the stakeholder said, “We can’t move these.” It was hard to physically move them, but he was like, “We can’t rearrange the room,” so then it’s suboptimal for breakout groups, and you’re constantly tripping over each other as you squeeze behind the wall and stuff like that. So sometimes you have to deal with that. But going back to that Paris session that I just described, that sticks in my mind as kind of a kickoff into facilitation for me, the room was way too small. I say that because it fit like 25 people, and we had 25 people in it. So the people, the office manager, whoever booked it for me, said, “Oh. You got 25 people? I got a room for 25 people,” but very often those numbers are like, if they’re just sitting there still with a notebook on their lap,” but to have a room that you could walk around, it was not nearly big enough.

So what we ended up doing in one part, I remember one of the diagrams that I had, this is very long. It was two meters, it was like eight feet of mapping, right? And there wasn’t enough wall space, so this one map, this one breakout group map literally went around a post, like a column. We had to bend the map, so it was like, “Okay.” We were really trying to squeeze every inch of wall space out of that. From that, my rule of thumb is you want a workshop room that is twice as big as any hotel says will fit in that room. If the hotel says it fits 25 people, then no, I want the room that fits 50 people in it, because you need that room to get up and walk around and that kind of thing if those are the types of things that you’re going to facilitate, which is what I tend to do,

Douglas Ferguson:

Especially if there’s a conference table in the room.

Jim Kalbach:

Right.

Douglas Ferguson:

It’s like barely enough room to get the chairs out and moved, much less if you have stuff on the walls and people are trying to huddle and stand between the table and the wall. It’s near impossible.

Jim Kalbach:

Yeah, and it can work, crunched into a corner or with artifacts up on the windows and stuff, which we’ve all done, right? But I find that my belief, Douglas, is that the quality and the nature of the collaboration space affects the quality and the nature of the collaboration, right? And if you do want that interactive, flowing, and free form kind of dialogue, the room can facilitate that or enable that or not, right? And that’s why when I walk into the room, the first thing I start doing is moving chairs and moving tables. It sounds like you do the same thing, so it’s a common belief I think that a lot of us have, whether it’s explicit or not.

Douglas Ferguson:

Yeah. To your point, it reminds me of Conway’s Law. I don’t know if you’ve heard of this one. It comes from the engineering world, software development folks. It’s basically that any software product is going to mirror the structure of the organization that created it. And so likewise, any collaboration that’s happening is going to mirror the structure of the space they’re in, so if you’ve got people seated in rows, all they can do is turn to their left and right to talk and collaborate, so that influences the network, if you will, of communication. I love that point you made about the quality of the space is going to impact the quality, and it’s also structural. I think it’s structural and qualitative.

Jim Kalbach:

Yeah, absolutely. I totally agree with that, and there are some spaces that are designed to have certain messages or they communicate in and of themselves, like a boardroom communicates. There’s somebody at the end of the table or courtroom. The judge sits higher, and everybody faces them and they stand up. All of those aspects of a gathering, bringing people together, it makes a difference on what’s expected of them, how they behave, how the interaction actually happens. Yeah, I placed a lot of weight on the physical setup. Of course, if it’s in person, right? I would say the same thing applies remote. I’m very attuned to remote spaces, which are very often a collection of tools, and being at Mural, where I work now for me, the setup of the mural and how that’s going to interact with Zoom and chat and things like that, I’m very careful about how I’m going to use those digital spaces, just like I do in person.

Douglas Ferguson:

You have to set up those spaces ahead of time, just like rearranging the room. Absolutely. This talk you have about the visual impact that a space might have, walking into a conference room and it’s setting a certain tone, it’s sending a message, it makes me think a lot about mapping. How do we visually represent things that exist in the world and concepts so that we can better understand them in ways that would require a lot of dialogue or a lot of prose? And so, I’m curious, what led you to start mapping? Do you remember what some of your early mapping moments were and how you got there?

Jim Kalbach:

Yeah. That’s a really good question. I think the precursor to that was, “I like maps,” like real maps. You remember back in the day, Douglas, before navigation systems and things, and folding them up in the car or wherever, the big map, like road maps?

Douglas Ferguson:

Randall McNally.

Jim Kalbach:

Yeah, exactly. Yeah. Unfortunately, nobody can read a map anymore, but that’s just a casualty of the time, but I used to love them and I used to just look at maps, atlases, globes, and things like that. So I just loved understanding and thinking about things in a very spatial way, in general, but I think when I started to get into design, UX, and information architecture, for me, at that time, it just felt very natural for me. Rather than talking through something to say, “Let me draw that for you,” or “Here. I can create a diagram and explain it better and quicker,” which I believe visualization helps you do.

It helps you explain things in a different way, and it helps explain things with a certain amount of expediency that somebody else can grasp at a different level. When I started to get into mapping professionally, customer journey maps, experience maps, workflow diagrams, and those types of things, it just really came to me naturally, and I ended up studying the space. This is even before 2010, really, but when I wrote my book in 2016, I had been looking at all kinds of journey maps and service blueprints, which all have their roots, even all the way back to the 70s, 80s, and things like that, but they didn’t really become more popular until more recently, but I had been studying all of those things. It just felt very natural for me to express myself, but also to encapsulate research as a diagram.

Douglas Ferguson:

I’ve seen teams that struggle to collaborate, struggle to communicate, just transform when they’re looking at a map of some sort, whether it’s a current state, future state, or something more detailed and specific as a service blueprint that you mentioned. It doesn’t really matter what it is, as long as it’s aligned with the specifics of what they’re trying to accomplish. Man, it can really just blow the roof off of a lot of strife and conflict that people have, just because of that alignment and just clarity that it can provide. I’m sure you’ve got stories or anecdotes around how maps have transformed a group before.

Jim Kalbach:

Yeah, absolutely. I call all maps, one of the terms that I talk about in my book is alignment diagrams, so I talk a lot about alignment, and there’s two ways to see alignment. One of them is outside-in, so coming from human-centered design, when I think about experience maps and journey maps, it’s really about representing the individual’s perspective, the customer perspective in a way that others can easily grasp, right? So there’s this outside in view, but then there’s also this, what I call inside across alignment, because the people who have to understand that experience and then create an experience for those customers, they have to be aligned as well too. So there is this meeting of the minds that I have absolutely seen in all of the workshops and mapping efforts that I’ve done as well, which is really important, I believe, that visualizations can achieve much quicker and at a different level of comprehension. I think there’s a couple of things behind that. First of all, because something like a journey map is customer-centric, it doesn’t have an opinion of a department or a specific function.

The opinion is, I’m the customer. Customer is king, right? This is a really important point here. What that does is people can find themselves and their own work in a map, right? Because it’s about here’s what the product development roadmap is, or here’s what the marketing campaign. It’s, here’s what the customer is doing, and if you’re in marketing, you might look across the map and see marketing campaigns, and if you’re in product, you might see sprints or something like that, right? But the viewpoint is of the customer, so I think there’s this harmonizing effect that maps in particular journey maps and experience maps, there’s this harmonizing effect that they bring to them, and the visual aspect of it is not unimportant, because that same information, as a list of bullet points, would be probably incomprehensible or you’re not able to see cause and effect in the same place. That’s the thing. You can see cause and effect in one map, and that really has an effect on teams, not just individuals, but on teams in a different way, that tends to get them aligned.

Douglas Ferguson:

Yeah. When you were talking about cause and effect, my brain went to worldly maps, and I’m curious, have you done much work with worldly maps, being a mapping aficionado?

Jim Kalbach:

No. What are they? What are the, worldly?

Douglas Ferguson:

Wow. They’re not super popular. There’s a few folks that are using them. I would definitely say check them out. It’s a little bit more advanced than the spectrum of mapping. A user journey map, you can pretty much read a couple paragraphs and be like, “Okay. I kind of basically get this, and I’m going to go just do it,” whereas a worldly map, there’s some different layers around, and it’s really looking at the economic drivers. It’s almost like, I’m going to butcher this, but basically if you think about there’s a supply chain to anything existing, there’s also a life cycle to anything existing, and then there’s also economic drivers. If we’re dealing with products that are going to be bought and sold, how far are they on this maturity curve? Then, are they in R&D, or are we actively making money from them? And so, it’s really interesting to look at your innovation portfolio and think about where you might invest or move things along. That’s my real quick, 30-second attempt.

Jim Kalbach:

I mean, it sounds valuable for the reasons that we just discussed, right? That same information in a spreadsheet would not resonate as much with a group of people and have that aligning effect. And just to go back to the beginning of our conversation here too, an artifact of any kind of map, I think, almost asks for facilitation around it, right? Because that’s the thing about a journey map that I always say, is that there’s no answers on the journey map. People look at it and go, “Yeah, I didn’t learn anything.” It’s like, “That’s because you didn’t facilitate a conversation on top of that. You have to bring a lens on top of it. You have to rate yourself, find the moments of truth, or see what competitors are doing better or whatever the levers of change are that you’re going to grab onto. That comes out through the conversation, not from the map, right? So therefore, it’s not about the map, it’s not about the noun, the artifact. It’s about the mapping, which is a verb, and the mapping requires a guide, a facilitator to bring a group of people through the mapping conversation.

Douglas Ferguson:

And maps can be such a powerful tool to bring into a toolkit as a facilitator, and the beautiful thing about a map is that, unlike a lot of facilitation activities, it’s not this rigid structure of, “Here’s step one, here’s step two, here’s step three.” It’s like, the point is, “Build this map, and explore it and discuss it together,” and sure, some maps, there might be sections that you work through in a logical order, but it’s less rigid in the sense of like, “Hey, I got to make a group do this and then do that.” It’s more, we’re shaping this thing and trying to depict the story together, which I think it’s kind of liberating, and if you get an instinct and comfort with it, you can almost swap any kind of map in as this thing we’re going to do with this group based on whatever it is that they’re trying to accomplish.

Jim Kalbach:

Yeah. Agree, agree, and again, my focus is on the conversation. My focus is on the interaction or activating what is on the map, but the map, as a visual diagram, that becomes the centerpiece then, right? So it’s not everything, but it is this compelling centerpiece that the conversations kind of swirl around. I’ve used the metaphor of a campfire before. You’re sitting around a campfire, and it’s not about the fire, it’s about the conversation around the fire, right? But without that thing in the center, those conversations have a different cohesion to them, right? It’s the glue that holds things together, and to your point too, it can be random access. You can start in this corner and go to that corner, or do it the other way around or go back to the beginning, so it allows for very fluid conversations as well too, which then you, as the facilitator, also have to recognize, that it’s not going to be step one, step two, step three, step four, like you described, right? That that conversation, because the conversations with maps can be fluid, you want to design the interaction to also be fluid.

Douglas Ferguson:

Yes, but it’s not quite as open and nebulous as a normal just wide open conversation, because you’ve got this anchor, this focal point of the map. And to your point about the random access, that’s actually a really powerful aspect, because then you can remind people that we can always revisit a step. When you’re needing to move on, let’s actually hit the pause here and now let’s look at this spot over here, because oftentimes looking through that other perspective will help them then come back and think about things they hadn’t thought about, or what’s the intersectionality between, now that I’m thinking about, I don’t know, our revenue drivers versus whatever we were just talking about?

Jim Kalbach:

Yeah, absolutely. I guess, in that sense, it’s something like a journey map, an experience map, for instance. It’s a structure that liberates.

Douglas Ferguson:

Yes. I love that. So I also am curious about something that I want to come back to LexisNexis, where you were talking about this is a moment where it was something that was new to them. So not only were you bringing in, were they mapping things and working together, and there’s this new space, but they also had to be receptive to some new ideas. What do you think that you were doing as a facilitator, as a guide in that experience, that was helping them be open to new ideas? Because I think that’s really critical for any good facilitated workshop, is putting people in a learning growth mindset where they’re going to be open to embracing new ideas.

Jim Kalbach:

Yeah, great question. I think there are a lot of factors. We talked about the room and the visualizations on the walls themselves too, but I also had done a bunch of research prior to that. Obviously, the maps were based on firsthand customer interviews. I was literally going around to people’s offices and watching them work and things like that, so it was valid research based on observation and evidence, but I didn’t go in there with a really strong hypothesis or answer or recommendation. I, basically, said, “Here’s what I observed. I believe it’s valid. If you want to correct anything there, that’s fine,” and we had a discussion about something or another perhaps, so that’s fine. But I really left it up to them to come to their own conclusions, and I think that’s really important that, what’s the phrase? You can lead a horse to water, but you can’t make them drink.

But I think if they come to their own conclusions, at that point in time, then there’s a sense of ownership, which I think helps people change their perspective or to grasp onto something and move to a different place cognitively than they weren’t, right? So I didn’t come in with anything prescribed. I didn’t prescribe anything, other than the activities that we did, which by the way, I just tend to have so much activity that derailers don’t even have a chance to derail, because they’re like, “Okay. We’re moving up to the next one,” and I have a lot of energy and I wave my arms and stuff like that. “Okay, great question. Let’s move on,” right? So keeping things going and relying on your activities to guide the group, I think, is something you got to have faith in those activities that you set up.

Douglas Ferguson:

Yeah, and I found it can be really liberating just to, I mean, even if people are pushing back, just to understand that it’s not necessarily a sign that things are going wrong and just being okay with that, right? And saying, “All right. The group’s having a moment.” This is like, “Okay, and that’s part of my job, is to be here and let that just exist for a moment.”

Jim Kalbach:

Agree, agree. Absolutely, which as a facilitator, then you almost can’t build enough buffer into your schedule. I don’t know about you, Doug, but I’ve been doing this forever, and I still overestimate the amount of time that I need like, “Oh. We got to cut that last activity.” I think it’s, in part, because of those moments where you’re like, “I’m going to let this go, because this is great,” particularly if it’s good stuff. If it’s healthy debate or conversation or even healthy controversy, to let that go and then to build that into your facilitation. Totally agree about that, but the other thing that came to mind too was, particularly for some of those early sessions, is I had high level air cover from a fairly senior person who actually commissioned that session, so everybody that was there reported up into this guy, and he was there as well too.

So it was kind of like they didn’t really have a choice but to be there and participate, and that really, really helped. It wasn’t just me doing a grassroots thing, it was from the top down, and that really helped to get those right people in the room, but it was still up to me to engage them and make it interactive. The demand that came out of that, like we described, wasn’t because it was decreed from above. There was organic demand that came there, but it doesn’t hurt if there’s somebody super senior that says, “Nope, we’re doing this”, particularly in terms of other people being open to it, right? Because it was like, “Nope, we’re a customer-centric organization now. It’s one of our values. The CEO said that. The vice president over here said that, and this guy, Jim, knows about customer centricity, so follow him.” It helps when you have that type of top-down air cover.

Douglas Ferguson:

Yeah, absolutely. And it sounds like real credible air cover, because it’s not just like, “Hey, leadership said so.” It’s actually aligned with a clear mission and a clear why behind it. I think so many people get into trouble when it’s like, “Okay. This is decreed,” but the why isn’t clear. We’re even having trouble articulating the why right now,” and so then you get people just confused and pushing back, because they just honestly don’t understand why they’re being asked to do stuff.

Jim Kalbach:

Yeah, totally. I mean, purpose, right? I know, in your masterclass, we talk about purpose and Priya Parker talks about purpose, and it was we need to shift to be a customer-centric organization. These types of things help, mapping, workshops around mapping. That helps us all get aligned around what the heck that means. That helps us all become more sensitive to customer experience, like concerns, right? So there was an overarching imperative there that I could always just point to and say, “Okay. Go back and do what you were doing, but it wasn’t customer-centric.” So there was motivation and momentum going in my direction, which if you have a clear purpose like that, that makes all the difference in the world, particularly with those derailers, people folding their arms, and things like that, right? It is like, “No, we agreed on that. This is the way to get there.”

Douglas Ferguson:

Absolutely. Hey, you mentioned the certification program. I am always really inspired and intrigued to speak with folks like yourself that have had a deep history before coming into the program. So I guess I’m curious, as you reflect on the program, what was surprising to you, as someone who already had a ton of experience? What did you take away that you weren’t expecting?

Jim Kalbach:

I think there was some structure and order to a lot of it, and the readings were great, and the discussions that we had were great. Everything that I just described was just learning by doing, right? I didn’t know what I was doing. Fly to Paris and do a workshop. “Okay, I don’t know. I’ll run. How much time do I have?” And it was very intuitive, right? That’s pretty much how I learned a lot of what I know, was by making a lot of mistakes along the way, right? You’ve probably had those sessions that just flop, and you’re like, “Oh, man. That was rough,” and it’s kind of like a stage performance, right? Because you kind of go back, and you’re like, “Oh, man. Now how can I go back out and face the audience again,” kind of moments, so I made a lot of mistakes along the way, but I just learned it just by brute force.

The thing that the course really opened my eyes to was the systematic, there’s a discipline there. There’s a field of study there. There’s people who have broken it down and in the readings, but then people like Eric, your colleague there who is masterful in and of himself, in terms of facilitating that course, but also facilitating, just having that kind of structure and methodical approach to it was eye-opening to me, so I gained a lot. The other thing that it did too was, what you were asking questions like you’re doing here, what was your facilitation passed about? And we had to create a facilitation portfolio, and I was like, “What? I don’t know. I don’t have anything to put on there,” and then I thought about it, and I was like, “Oh. I have a ton of stuff to put on there,” so it was self-reflective for me as well too, to look back at all those things I did learning by doing, and then combine it with a methodical, systematic kind of approach that you guys bring to it. It really leveled up my game, I believe.

Douglas Ferguson:

Wow, super cool. Speaking of your game, your role at Mural, you’re at the intersection of facilitation and technology. So I’m curious, how do you see technology transforming the facilitation landscape, especially as we look at more and more remote and hybrid settings?

Jim Kalbach:

Yeah, that’s a good question. I mean, I was a remote work advocate well before the pandemic, but what the pandemic did for me, personally, was made the remote option not only viable, but in many cases preferred, right? And I used to travel a lot to give workshops, talks, and things like that, and now I’m getting people coming to me saying, “No, we want this remote so we can loop in our colleagues from London,” or the team is hyper distributed and they’re not going to be able to travel. So for me, I think where we are right now, coming out of the pandemic, it’s great, because I have a lot of in-person experience, and I know how to control the room.

Sorry for the pun there, but I know how to be in-person and stand up in front, work with breakout groups, and that kind of thing, and artifacts, sticky notes, and things like that, but I also have a deep affinity and expertise, if I can say so myself, in remote facilitation as well too. So the combination of those things, I think, is what a facilitator needs in this day and age, and I understand the in-person argument. I prefer in-person, right? In-person conversations is better. In-person workshop is better, but you don’t have that luxury all the time, right? So it’s not about preference. It’s about adapting, right? And can you adapt and do in-person or remote, or even hybrid, which is even really tricky, right? But can you facilitate something that’s hybrid? I think having those chops and the ability to adapt is really key, but to be honest with you, these days, I actually prefer too things remote.

Douglas Ferguson:

Yeah. I enjoy it as well. Personally, it’s nice to have a blend. As someone who facilitates a lot from my home office here, it’s nice to go on the road a little bit, but man, I tell you, I don’t miss being on the road every week, doing design sprints. It’s been a nice change, and frankly, it’s opened up the door to some things that wouldn’t have happened if travel were involved.

Jim Kalbach:

Yeah, no. Absolutely. My book, The Jobs To Be Done Playbook, came out in 2020 right at the beginning of the pandemic, essentially, a month after the pandemic, actually, and I’ve been doing some workshops on that topic. Of course, during the pandemic, they were all remote, and I’ve gotten some requests to do it in person, and I had to stop and go, “Oh. I don’t even know how I do that in person,” because I have to hand out example interview texts. I was like, “well, I got them all. Oh, wait. I got to print paper. Oh, wait. Everybody needs a pack.” I had to make packets.

The first time I did that workshop in person, I had to make packets for people, because I had all this information, obviously in a mural board. I had all this information that people were interacting with, and I couldn’t even think about how to get that off and do it in a physical way, because the whole thing was conceived of in a virtual setting. I think, for that reason, particularly that workshop, I’m like, “No, I’m better and I prefer it to do it remote,” because I got the whole thing down now too. It feels flat to me when I do it in person, actually, because there’s some things that you just can’t do and following people around. There’s all kinds of things that I’ve just gotten attached to in the remote world there

Douglas Ferguson:

That’s super fascinating. It brings me back to the early days of the pandemic, where we were trying to translate all of our stuff that was designed to be in person into the virtual space, and some people, ignorantly, just like forklifted stuff directly in without thinking about how to transpose it properly. This is the first time you’re making me think about the opposite like, “Oh, wow. We got all this natively designed virtual stuff, because it’s only been run virtually. How do we now do this in person?” And I actually ran into that with Magical Meetings, because I had only done it virtually, and I got asked to come do it in San Luis Obispo, and I remember thinking, “Oh, man. I need to print out handouts,” and then after running it, I’m like, “Well, these handouts were okay, but they really need to be a bound booklet,” because people were flipping through them and losing. It’s just like, “Wow, I don’t have nearly as many reps on the in-person version as I do the virtual.”

Jim Kalbach:

Yeah, exactly. That was exactly what I experienced as well, and again, face-to-face conversations are great, and you can see your stakeholder and shake their hand, and there’s all those things that matter. Even just going to lunch with the group, those things make a difference as well too, but in terms of my curriculum, my teaching style, and what I can communicate, I feel like I’m better remote now, and I get great feedback, so I don’t think the students miss it either.

Douglas Ferguson:

One thing you mentioned in the blog post was about integrating the facilitation principles in the cultural DNA of organizations, and so I’m curious, what are some practical steps that listeners can think about specifically in regards to helping their organizations foster this kind of culture of facilitation or just the cultural DNA, the notion that you’re referring to?

Jim Kalbach:

Yeah. That’s a really great point. First of all, I think, given that conversation that we just had about remote and in-person and post-pandemic, I think now, more than ever, we need facilitation, which is different than being a facilitator, because I like to say facilitation happens. Anytime somebody calls a meeting or a gathering, and it starts and it ends, there was some type of facilitation that happened to get to the end, right? The point there is you don’t necessarily have to be a certified professional facilitator to practice facilitation. It’s anybody who raises their finger and leads at that moment is facilitating, right? I think now, more than ever, given the flexible and dispersed teams that we have, but as well as hyper competition and more 1099s coming up than W2s, and people moving in and out of Teams and things like that, now more than ever, I believe that teamwork and interaction needs to be guided, right? I would put all of that under the big bucket of facilitation.

So I think, particularly leaders, and it doesn’t have to be a manager, it could be a sprint master or a team lead, basically anybody who’s leading a group of people in a conversation, so conversation leads, we can say, if we want, to have a little bit of intentionality, I think that’s really the key, right? To bring in intentionality around things like synchronous versus asynchronous. What are you going to do on your group chat, or what are you going to do in terms of video recording with a tool like Loom? What can you do that you don’t have to be meeting synchronous for? Just intentionality around. Things like that can start down the path of healthier collaboration. So bringing in intentional practices as well too. We hinted at Liberating Structures, which I know you bring into your course quite a bit, which are great. You don’t have to improvise how you’re going to get from point A to point B, right? And have an agenda. Okay, that’s great advice, but an agenda is just really a signpost of where you’re going, but it doesn’t tell you how you’re going to get there, right?

But something like 1-2-4-All, Rose Thorn Bud, or something, or a Journeymap, that’s something that you can fill those slots with to actually guide the interaction as it’s happening and unfolding, so you can be inclusive, you can be iterative, voices can be heard. You can bring together diverse perspectives without having a complete collapse of the conversation in a very guided and structured way, so this idea of being intentional, but leveraging simple tools that we have at our disposal that anybody can drive, something like liberating structures, and you don’t have to be a professional facilitator to drive things like liberating structures. So I think I’m kind of talking around the answer here, but I think the one thing is recognize that if you stand up and you raise your hand to lead a group of people in any way, that you can be intentional in how you’re going to do that, and you should. The other thing is you can bring in tools, methods, and activities that structure the conversation, so collaboration skills and facilitation skills is one side of it. The other is collaboration methods, is another side of it.

Douglas Ferguson:

So kind of building upon that and looking ahead, thinking about how things will evolve in the future, how do you envision the role of facilitation changing maybe over the next decade or so?

Jim Kalbach:

I do hope it is something that people don’t necessarily see as a job title or a specialized field, that it is something that anybody can do, right? Just as an analogy, I’m not sure why my mind went to this analogy, but in 1887, I think is the year, but around that time period, photography was very specialized. To be a photographer, you had to literally know how explosives worked, because you had the flash thing, and you put your head under a hood, and then developing the film was very hard. There was no labs that you just sent it out to, right? So photography was a very, very specialized profession, right? But then Kodak came out with the Brownie camera, which allowed anybody to photograph. They weren’t professional photographers, but they were able to photograph.

To this day, they’re professional photographers, right? But any one of us could pull out a cell phone and be a “photographer” in that moment, and just imagine if you couldn’t take a picture of your food or whatever at the restaurant, it is so natural for us to be like, “I’m going to take a picture of that,” right? But it wasn’t always like that, and that’s kind of an analogy for me. Maybe not over 100 years. I hope it goes quicker, Douglas, than a century, or more now. We’re in 2024, right? But this idea of there are professional facilitators, and I can go to Voltage Control and get my certification on that, but I can also practice facilitation, and it’s something that I am comfortable with doing, and it’s just there. It’s everywhere, like a light switch in our offices or turning on the tap that, “Okay, we’re facilitating now,” that it becomes more commonplace and not so specialized.

Douglas Ferguson:

Yeah. That’s my hope as well, because I think there’s so many situations where just good facilitation would’ve improved the quality of someone’s day, which then could have ripple effects into their week, their year, their life, and so the more that we can improve these moments of time that we gather and that we work together, when we spend so much of life at work and with our colleagues, the more we can improve those moments and those experiences, the better outcomes we can drive and the higher quality of existence that we’ll have, I think.

Jim Kalbach:

I agree, and I think it does spill outside of the work environment. We’re talking about work environment, but what about government and local government? I think about what’s going on at City Hall in the city that I live right now, and how dysfunctional are those conversations, when I think about that, or my wife is very active and her friends are very active in volunteer organizations, right? Then, I hear some of the stories. They’ll go out to meetings and, “This happened,” or “That didn’t happen, right?”

I’m like, “Wow. If they just had somebody going, ‘Let’s do 1-2-4-All,” or “Let’s do a Rose Thorn Bud on this,” the whole thing would’ve been so much more purposeful and meaningful on the outcome. So yeah, it is about dialogue and human interaction for the purpose of a better place to exist in, right?

Douglas Ferguson:

Absolutely. Well, we’re getting to the end of our conversation here, so I want to give you an opportunity to leave our listeners with a final thought.

Jim Kalbach:

I mean, I think we’re on a good track right there, Douglas, with that, and I think it’s that focus on facilitation, and not necessarily, “I have to become a facilitator.” That’s not the goal. The goal is the facilitation and facilitating is a skill that anybody can learn in practice, and I would say it’s a future skill, right? If you lead a team, if you’re a manager, if you raise your finger to guide a group of people, it’s in your own best interest and for the common good of that group to have a structured and guided conversation to get to the outcomes that you want, and anybody can do that.

Douglas Ferguson:

Speaking to the choir, my friend. It’s been a pleasure chatting with you today, and I hope that we’ll get to do it again. Thanks a bunch, Jim.

Jim Kalbach:

Anytime. I’m happy to come back on, Douglas. Thanks so much for having me.

Douglas Ferguson:

Thanks for joining me for another episode of the Facilitation Lab Podcast. If you enjoyed the episode, please leave us a review and be sure to subscribe and receive updates when new episodes are released. We love listener tales, and invite you to share your facilitation stories. Send them to us on LinkedIn or via email. If you want to know more, head over to our blog where I post weekly articles and resources about facilitation, team dynamics, and collaboration, voltagecontrol.com.

The post The Most Impactful Visual Tools for Facilitating Team Alignment appeared first on Voltage Control.

“Change is inevitable; it’s how you adapt to it. It’s the tools that you look for, the how do you want to grow so that you can adapt better to these changes that come your way.”- Neallie Kani

In this podcast episode, Douglas Ferguson hosts Neallie Kani, a UX Specialist from Hogan Assessments, who shares her facilitation journey and the impact of leadership classes on her career. She discusses the importance of creating a comfortable environment for teams, inspired by Erik Skogsberg’s calming facilitation approach. Neallie applies techniques like icebreakers and working agreements to enhance her meetings, emphasizing trial and error and monthly check-ins for continuous improvement. She uses visual aids like PowerPoint to align her team and stresses the significance of consistent reminders of team values. The conversation also touches on the importance of feedback, individual connections, and the transformative power of facilitation certification. Neallie encourages embracing learning and networking for professional growth.

Show Highlights

[00:01:16] Exposure to Facilitation
[00:05:34] Creating a Safe Environment
[00:09:08] Applying Inspiration to Work
[00:15:10] Building Lasting Commitments
[00:23:42] Leadership and Value Creation
[00:26:48] Effective Workshop Methods
[00:36:30] Future of Facilitation

Links | Resources

Neallie on Linkedin

About the Guest

Neallie leads design thinking workshops and oversees user experience enhancements for Hogan products and services.

About Voltage Control

Voltage Control is a facilitation academy that develops leaders through certifications, workshops, and organizational coaching focused on facilitation mastery, innovation, and play. Today’s leaders are confronted with unprecedented uncertainty and complex change. Navigating this uncertainty requires a systemic facilitative approach to gain clarity and chart pathways forward. We prepare today’s leaders for now and what’s next.

Subscribe to Podcast

Engage Control The Room

Voltage Control on the Web
Contact Voltage Control

Transcript

Douglas Ferguson:

Hi, I’m Douglas Ferguson. Welcome to the Facilitation Lab podcast, where I speak with Voltage Control certification alumni and other facilitation experts about the remarkable impact they’re making. We embrace a method agnostic approach so you can enjoy a wide range of topics and perspectives as we examine all the nuances of enabling meaningful group experiences. This series is dedicated to helping you navigate the realities of facilitating collaboration, ensuring every session you lead becomes truly transformative. Thanks so much for listening. If you’d like to join us for a live session sometime, you can join our Facilitation Lab Community. It’s an ideal space to apply what you learn in the podcast in real time with peers. Sign up today at voltagecontrol.com/facilitation-lab. If you’d like to learn more about our 12-week facilitation certification program, you can read about it at voltagecontrol.com. Today, I’m with Neallie Kani, a UX specialist at Hogan Assessments. Neallie leads design thinking workshops and oversees user experience enhancements for Hogan’s products and services. Welcome to the show, Neallie.

Neallie Kani:

Thank you for having me.

Douglas Ferguson:

Oh, it’s so great to be with you today and always fun to talk to one of our alumni and hear about the great work they’re doing and just learn more about everyone’s experiences. As usual, I’d like to get started just hearing a little bit about how you first got exposed to facilitation. Maybe you saw someone that was really good at it or you started practicing the methods yourself. What was it that drew you in to the power of facilitation?

Neallie Kani:

Funny enough, I think way back when, when I was in high school, and even a little bit in middle school, there were leadership types of classes that had drawn my attention. In high school, I was in two years of Leadership, that’s actually what the class was called, it was just called Leadership. Basically, a lot of student council students were in that class as well. I wasn’t student council myself, but just leadership just called me, not in a competitive way, but in a way to better myself. Like, I want to be my own leader. I’m not asking to lead others, but it drew my intention on how to lead myself better. That’s where I started with these things, before I even truly knew what facilitation was, I did gravitate into making myself a better leader. Then afterwards, years down the road, I found myself always drawn into leader roles just naturally.

I found it fascinating, I thought it was really a great way to learn how to communicate with others. On top of that, I just thought that looking back at how management positions or leadership positions where I wanted to be the type of leader that wasn’t a micromanager, wasn’t somebody who was condescending, was somebody inviting and motivational for peers around her or him. That was the start, and then once I got myself into the UX world, I got to meet a lot of instructors and mentors, I was able to end up with a lot of volunteer opportunities. What ended up happening from there is I got to start learning how to provide valuable experiences for anybody that I’m working with, really.

If I’m in a small team, how to be somebody that leads themselves, but also is able to provide motivation and boost morale within the team that I would be working with. Getting into these volunteer opportunities, I was able to realize that even though I had gotten to learn a lot about leadership in my youth, there’s just so much more that I needed to still learn. There was so much more that I was still unaware of in how to be a great facilitator and how to be a great leader. That’s really what began my journey into looking more into UX in a leader role versus UX as somebody that’s not a facilitator in UX, somebody that’s not a lead in UX, I started transitioning out of that and looking more into the leadership roles.

Douglas Ferguson:

It’s interesting to me that when I asked about formative moments for facilitation you went to, leadership courses that were available to you at a young age, high school. There must be a correlation for you between facilitation and leadership, so be curious to hear more about how you relate those two things.

Neallie Kani:

I think the way that I relate them is even though there are differences between being a leader and a facilitator, I think to be a good leader, you should also be a great facilitator.

Douglas Ferguson:

Why do you think that is? What do you think it is about facilitation that makes people a great leader?

Neallie Kani:

When I think about all the experiences I’ve had in facilitation or the opportunities I’ve had to be in front of great facilitators, I have always felt safe. I have always felt comfortable, I have always felt energy, and sometimes leaders don’t provide that.

Douglas Ferguson:

I think that’s really important and that feeling of safe. Oftentimes, we talk about creating safe places and whatnot in the world of facilitation. Can you recall a time when you witnessed that safe feeling and what was happening, what the facilitator was doing to make that come about?

Neallie Kani:

I have numerous, numerous moments that really stand out to me, but the most recent one was actually when I went to the facilitation certification alumni session, I want to say back in February. It was a small group, but the way that the facilitator led that session, it was just relaxing. Nobody was speaking loudly, nobody was talking over one another. Everybody just had a serene smile on their face, and that is how it started. It just kind of like you come together, you’re just breaking the ice, and that sets the energy. That sets the tone for the entire experience, the body language, how everyone is sitting in a circle around one another. We’re open, we’re ready to listen, and that really set a great environment for the three-day session and really stood out to me. I felt comfortable with sharing things that I didn’t think I was even going to share.

Douglas Ferguson:

Who was facilitating that?

Neallie Kani:

Erik was facilitating that.

Douglas Ferguson:

The one and only, Erik Skogsberg. It’s great. You said setting the tone was super important. What did you witness that really spoke to you as far as how the tone got set?

Neallie Kani:

What I thought was absolutely genius is sometimes I have gone into these conferences where the moment the mic is picked up, it is just energy, energy, energy. What Erik did that was just eye-opening to me is we came into this quiet room and he spoke in a, because it was a smaller group, we were all sitting closer, so of course, there’s no mic, there’s no need to. There’s not a hundred people in the room that we’re trying to energize. What he did is he adapted. He adapted to the size of the group and he started the conversation in such a soft tone.

It’s almost like I was in yoga, but speaking, instead of actually doing movements. He had this soft tone and it just brought us out and helped us relax. I believe he also had us close our eyes for a moment, and that just set everything together. It did build to energy later on once we got into the activities, but what was nice is he centered us before we began. He helped us breathe out all of the tension in our body and start with a new look on everything, start with new energy because we were relaxed.

Douglas Ferguson:

That’s so great to hear. That’s making me wonder that maybe this is now showing up in some of your work. Have you been able to take that inspiration and channel it, whether it’s the soft opening or taking folks on a journey where the energy level shifts throughout the experience or really anything, were you able to take anything from that and apply it?

Neallie Kani:

Absolutely. I am continuously growing in my field, in facilitation, and being a facilitator. One of the things that I took away from this is, I’ll use one of our, we do UX meetings in my organization and I facilitate and lead those. One thing that I took from that is when we first get into the session, when everybody starts dropping in, it is virtual. As everybody starts popping into the meeting, before just hitting the ground running, we have a moment where we have a little bit of an icebreaker. How is everybody’s weekend? What have you done? How is your day going? Because sometimes people just pop into a meeting and they’re just silent.

Especially, in the virtual world. It is not as comfortable as being in person. What’s nice of having that few minutes of just checking in, how’s your day going, is you’re connecting with those people. You’re letting those people know I see you, though we are in maybe different states, though we might not have all of our cameras on, I’m still acknowledging your presence and I am just checking in with you. That’s something that I’ve taken to my meetings. Then on top of that, providing an agenda, having a moment where we discuss working agreements, how we’re going to work with one another, and what is the goal of this session and how can we hold one another accountable to create that safe space.

Douglas Ferguson:

You also talked about the importance of the pre-agenda and how that’s helped people opt in the meetings. I really appreciated the point around the development team understanding when it might be appropriate or helpful for them to attend. It’s created this cross-departmental collaboration, but without them feeling like they have to attend. They’re educated and they can understand when they’re going to get value and when not. I thought that was really cool. Anything else that you’ve noticed there around that piece?

Neallie Kani:

Just the transparency. When I first began my journey with my current organization, we had a lack of transparency between scrum teams. It is a very small UX team, very, very tiny. Unfortunately, we’re not in a place where there could be a UX designer on every single scrum team. Due to that, we had this lack of transparency between what was going on in research versus what the developers were working on. Because of that, we started having these sessions where it’s important to have developer feedback. It’s not just handing a design off to developers and being like, “Hey, implement this.” Their input and feedback is valuable as well. At the start of the journey, we just had the developers sit in without agendas, and what ended up happening is it became a waste of their time and it became something that, “Hey, I have a whole load of work that I got to get done, but I’m sitting in this hour meeting and this wasn’t valuable for me.”

And after the facilitation certification, after being able to learn more, I adapted that into our meetings and I started bringing out these agendas that would even connect to product backlog items that the developers are, it’s coming up on an upcoming sprint for them. Being able to see that visibility, had that communication become transparent. No longer were the developers guessing, “What’s going on in these meetings because I feel like I need to sit in.” They’re able to view what the conversation is going to be about and make that choice of, “I’m going to attend because I need to attend this.” Versus, “I don’t need to attend this. It’s also recorded and I could come back to it if needed.”

Douglas Ferguson:

That’s super interesting. It’s like just giving people that ability to opt out, so powerful, given that folks often talk about just being inundated with meetings. That alone is an amazing facilitation trick.

Neallie Kani:

It could’ve been an email.

Douglas Ferguson:

The fact is, for some people it could have been an email, but for others, they really need to be there and dig through this research and understand these new customer perspectives that have been unearthed. It’s just funny how this could’ve been in emails all over the place, but yet the meetings still persists because some people find value in it. I think where we’re misguided is thinking that the need is the same for everyone.

Neallie Kani:

That’s a great point. Especially, because a lot of these sessions can be brainstorming sessions. You get to work with people that are outside of the UX team as well. You can have stakeholders on this call, developers, product owners, and so it is very valuable. It depends on what the agenda topic is, but there are going to be people a part of that meeting that they’ll be like, “Oh, I need to attend this because we need to have a discussion.” Versus others are like, “I don’t think I can provide anything to this discussion.” Giving them that option, I’ll say it has made a lot of people happy, and so things are going better.

Douglas Ferguson:

Also, I’m wondering too, there’s a difference between learning stuff and trying it out and seeing it work versus actually committing to change and building habits that stick. I’m curious what you found most effective for introducing and maintaining the changes in the meeting management and team communication and in these other facilitation pieces. What made it stick for you?

Neallie Kani:

I am definitely somebody who likes to try out things. There were some variations until we landed on what worked best, so it did grow. In the beginning, it was just an agenda that was dropped into the chat. Then it became, let’s add a working agreement, and it just grew from there. It was trial and error and there was adjustments. Another thing we had added so that we could capture what is working and what isn’t working is we started doing monthly UX retro check-ins, where we invited the developers and product owners and we’re basically like, “Hey, what’s going great? What should we continue doing? What is really bringing the party down? What should we stop doing and maybe find some opportunities of how we could do it differently?” Due to those check-ins, we were able to adjust how we want to facilitate these UX meetings/design thinking workshops. Anything really the UX team is going to be the facilitator on.

Douglas Ferguson:

That’s a great point. You mentioned agreements a few times now, and I want to come back to that because I think it’s so critical. Do you have any agreements that the team’s developed that you can share, or even I think it’d be cool to hear a story of how that agreement even came about, why it’s helpful.

Neallie Kani:

Well, I can’t take the credit for how the agreement came about. Within scrum teams, they definitely work with creating working agreements. That’s something we got inspired from the scrum team.

Douglas Ferguson:

Oh, wow, cool.

Neallie Kani:

It’s something that the developers found natural for them. That’s something that they’re used to. It’s like, “Okay, we’re going to take a page out of your book so that we can still make this a safe space for you.” It won’t feel foreign. It’s something that you’re used to within your own team. We brought that out and we started talking about what do we want to hold one another accountable for within these sessions. I would say the biggest one is, and this is just natural. People derail, people get into the weeds when we’re getting into discussions.

The biggest thing is identifying when we’ve gotten lost in the sauce, when do we need to pull back and realign ourselves on what the goal for the meeting was. The first thing in our working agreement was being able to start calling out, “Hey, this is going off track. We need to pull away from this. Maybe put this in a parking lot.” A term that we use is ELMO, which is enough, let’s move on, is what it stands for. That is something that’s in our working agreement, and when we feel that we’re not aligned or we’re derailing, somebody will be like, “ELMO this.”

Douglas Ferguson:

ELMO is an old classic, I love that. I’m curious, how are you documenting and sharing these agreements and these tools like ELMO so that either newcomers are aware that that’s something the team does, and just reminding folks that, “Hey, we’re going to stick to these behaviors.”

Neallie Kani:

The tools that we use for sharing the agenda is a PowerPoint. We use PowerPoint. What we do in PowerPoint, it’s only about three or four slides, the first slide is really listing out the agenda, the goal. The second slide is the outcome, what do we want the outcome from this meeting to be. Then finally, we have the working agreement slide, and that would show the bullet points. Basically, everything that we as a team have identified to put into our working agreement, that’s where we pause. Before we jump into the actual agenda, we’ll pause on the working agreement and we’ll let everybody review it. Even though everyone has seen it, you just never know, “Hey, I want to call out that we haven’t been meeting this bullet point in our working agreement.” Or, “I feel we need to adjust this because this isn’t working out for us anymore.”

We have a little bit of a presentation, a very tiny one at the start of our sessions where they’re able to review the working agreement. Then on top of that, once we’re done sharing, we copy that working agreement and we drop it into chat on Teams, so that they can still refer back to that. People aren’t going to remember 15 bullet points or 10 bullet points. Having that dropped into chat for them to use as a resource. If they feel that the meeting is getting off track or something else is not being met, they can look into that chat and say, “Hey, we’re not following our working agreement, it seems like.”

Douglas Ferguson:

I love this idea of putting the working agreements, the agenda, having these consistent three slides at the beginning of every meeting. Very powerful. We talked a little bit earlier about how do you build lasting commitments or ensure that change sticks. Putting things inside of your slide decks and your email signatures, what are these touch points that people constantly see and have to get in front of. Those are great ways, just memory devices. We’re constantly reminded, we’re constantly seeing this thing that we committed to doing. I love also this reflection moment where we can get honest with ourselves about are we living these team agreements? You could even do this with values. If you adopt team values or company values, those aren’t things that just plaster on the walls.

You should constantly come back to them. Rather than using slides, we have a Miro board that I use with the executive team. We meet every week and all of our conversations are centered around this board and anyone can pose a topic and there’s a number of things, like a dashboard with data and whatnot that we bring in so everything is there and we can move it around and it’s a little malleable. The values as well as our agreements are on that board, just center us around that. I love that y’all are doing that, and I think it’s a really smart approach, any place that you can put those things in front of people. I’m curious, has there ever been a time when you are inviting folks to reflect on those behaviors? Was there a story there around, “Hey, maybe either this behavior is not really accurately capturing us or we need to shift a little bit to live up to what we’re aspiring to be?”

Neallie Kani:

I would say the biggest place that those types of topics come up is during our UX retros, because that’s where it opens the space, especially for these people who aren’t a part of that UX team. They could be like, “Hey, I think maybe some changes around this needs to happen.” Or, “This isn’t turning out the way we had hoped.” That’s where we’re able to capture those. Originally, we were only doing those monthly, but this past week, we decided we should have more check-ins. We’re actually shifting our UX retros to become bi-weekly so that we can adjust anything faster. It’s not months or a full month before we’re talking because people could forget things. Something could have happened earlier on in the month and you’ve just forgotten about it. You’ve slept on it, you’re over it, and you just put it in the back burner. We don’t want that feedback loop to stop.

Douglas Ferguson:

Shorter feedback cycles are always more valuable. In fact, that’s the reason why so many companies are shifting from annual reviews or quarterly reviews to regular weekly one-on-ones. Because if you can address issues quickly, if you can praise people quickly, the results are so much better. You don’t want to tell someone nine months later that, “Yeah, we really didn’t like your performance.” It’s like, no, we need to address those issues now. We also need to applaud people much faster versus waiting and telling them later. Because when people feel underappreciated, it’s not a good scenario.

Neallie Kani:

The morale definitely goes down if they feel underappreciated. I even look back at when I was in high school and I was in those leadership roles, and it’s important for me to lead by example. It’s important for me to create a safe space but also provide value because you never know how many leaders or potential leaders are in the room that could be learning and being like, “You know what? I really love this idea and I’m going to carry this over to how I lead my sessions, my meetings that are outside of UX.”

Douglas Ferguson:

In addition to the regular UX meetings, you also talked about workshops that you’re doing, and these could be about product discovery or evolving an existing product. Really curious to hear what sorts of techniques that you’re finding to be the most valuable when you’re going into a space of exploration and discovery on the new product versus evolving existing products. Do they look similar? Are they different? What kinds of things are you exploring there?

Neallie Kani:

The starting point could be different. If it’s an existing product, there’s already a look and feel to it most of the time, and it’s really identifying the new pain points or the new problems that we’re facing. When it’s something from scratch, I will say it’s very fun when it’s from scratch because you have no idea how the end results of this could be. Before we get into design thinking workshops, we identify that need of, do we need a workshop during our UX sessions? That’s where product owners will be like, “Hey, we have, let’s say this product is done for this year, but we still need to start doing research for all of this other set of stuff that our users are looking for.”

When it comes to setting up that design thinking workshop, we’ve identified within our UX meetings what the need is for that workshop, and then we give ourselves at least a month or two to start creating it out. Time boxing, what are the things that we want to go over in these workshops? Where are we starting? Are we starting in empathy? Are we more looking at prioritization of ideas that we have created before? Are we validating with users? We give ourselves a good amount of time to really identify everything that we want to go through in this workshop and give ourselves that amount of time to also reach out to those attendees and make sure that their availability aligns with what we are wanting, but the topics vary.

Douglas Ferguson:

When you’re thinking about the contents of the workshop where folks are actually getting into decision-making and ideation around possible ways that they might go or understanding research better, what are some of your go-to methods or activities that really have been effective for you?

Neallie Kani:

I would say the most effective that I’ve had is definitely journey mapping. Because a lot of times, especially within my organization, there are products that exist, and our users have been dealing with those products for years and maybe it hasn’t been updated in a while. Maybe there are new products out in the market that just have way more features than the current ones they’re using. Journey mapping is really important for us to understand the current state. What we usually do is we have a pre-work session where we get with those users and we start identifying those phases and activities within each phase for the journey map. Then we start coming up with a future state as well. During the design thinking workshop, we have everybody come in to do the exercise in that future state or a hybrid, which is a mix of the current and the future state. I would say that journey mapping is something that I find myself using probably in 90% of the design thinking workshops I’ve led.

Douglas Ferguson:

Mapping is really powerful, and especially when it’s done in a team setting. That can often be difficult and time-consuming. The thing you mentioned around having some upfront conversations and doing a little bit of rough drafting, if you will, can really help the team be a little more efficient when we’re together. Because we’re already walking in with a little bit of shared understanding, we’ve got something that we can critique together and move forward together and massage versus if everyone’s staring at that blank whiteboard or that blank canvas, it can be a little challenging.

Neallie Kani:

Especially, for those who are not as used to Miro. What’s funny is I had to adapt to learn this because my first design thinking workshop, not as smooth as I wanted it to be. The journey mapping was done together, it wasn’t done as pre-work. What we learned is, “Hey, let’s have these people come in earlier so we could identify these stages, these activities, so that when we get into the workshop, there’s not that confusion of what journey are we looking at.” Then people could start getting together about the pain points, about the opportunities, and then about big ideas that are generated from those.

Douglas Ferguson:

Similar to reaching out to people beforehand to work on a rough draft of a map or get to shared understanding around something before getting into the big group. You mentioned in your blog post about how effective reaching out for one-on-one sessions with some members of the team and how particularly impactful that was for you. I’m just curious, how have these deeper individual connections transformed the way that you facilitate and lead?

Neallie Kani:

Well, I would say the biggest way that it’s helped me is knowing how to address these individuals as well. It’s to understand, for instance, some of these one-on-ones happened with those that maybe don’t feel comfortable in a big setting to give their input, to give their feedback, they just sit there silently. Especially, in the virtual world, they don’t want to speak out. They don’t want everybody’s eyes on them. These one-on-ones are really nice because it gives them that time to open up and actually give their feedback where they don’t feel like they’re being judged or looked at.

What that helps with is I’m still getting that feedback loop from them, but when we get into the session where there’s a lot of people there, I’m not too worried if they’re being quiet or if they’re not giving their feedback as much because I’m still able to gather that from them outside of the session. I won’t make them uncomfortable because I understand, okay, this is not something they’re comfortable with and I’m not going to push them or call them out in the middle of the session and be like, “What do you think?”

Douglas Ferguson:

Yeah, for sure. Have you found other strategies for getting their ideas in the room?

Neallie Kani:

Yes. I will say activities usually help, like using Miro where it’s just sticky notes. They could be anonymous. They feel a lot safer than that, or they feel a lot safer doing that, is my assumption, because they’re not unmuting themselves and talking. They’re able to be more anonymous when using Miro.

Douglas Ferguson:

Any kind of quiet activity, whether it’s Miro or even if you’re in person writing down sticky notes versus having to vocalize them, giving people time to collect their thoughts, even time to reflect, like prepare a thought. Before anyone starts talking, let’s all quietly prepare our thoughts. Then even talking in groups of two, sometimes people feel safer, braver when they’re just talking to one other person. Then unless you’ve got two quiet types talking to each other, usually their partner will speak up on behalf so they’ll become their spokesperson. They’ll share their great ideas with the rest of the team.

Neallie Kani:

Definitely.

Douglas Ferguson:

Amazing. We’re starting to pivot a bit toward the end here. I wanted to come back to your decision-making process. Because I remember you talking about how pivotal J and Lizzie were in your decision. I was just curious if there was a specific conversation with J in particular that maybe shed some light on the world of facilitation or our certification. Did he have anything to share that really spoke to you?

Neallie Kani:

Funny enough, even though I was in those classes that I took in high school, I never really thought I was going to end up as a facilitator. I am not a very competitive person. If I like something, I’m going to do it because it brings me joy. When I was in SMU for the UX certification, J was one of my mentors and he was an instructor for the corset. I just love the way he facilitated. I love the way that he captured all the students’ attentions, how he would stay afterwards. He was very attentive. Due to being one of the students that stayed after to get the J Schuh knowledge, I got to learn about Voltage. After I had graduated, I asked J, “What else can I learn? Is there anywhere I could volunteer? Really, just wanting to know more about knowledge, sharing and to better myself in my UX role.”

J introduced me to Voltage, and then from there, I was also introduced to Lizzie outside of Voltage, but it was around the same time. I believe Lizzie was volunteering with Voltage, and she told me, “Hey, there’s a facilitation certification that Voltage is doing and I’m going to be volunteering for that.” It just drew my attention because at this point when she brought this up, I was working at my current organization and though I had not expected it, I had found myself in a leadership role. I was facilitating meetings, but I didn’t feel confident in myself. I didn’t feel I was bringing the value. Lo and behold, I took the bull by the horns and got into the facilitation certification course and great changes have come from it.

Douglas Ferguson:

That’s so great to hear, and I’m thrilled to see the growth and how your career is flourishing. I certainly take great pride in following our alumni and watching the great work they’re doing, so it’s super thrilling to me. I’d be curious, when you reflect on your journey, what advice do you offer professionals, especially UX and similar fields about the importance of facilitation skills and enhancing team collaboration?

Neallie Kani:

Change is inevitable. It’s how you adapt to it. It is the tools that you look for. How do you want to grow so that you can adapt better to these changes that come your way? It is okay to try multiple ways until you find your path.

Douglas Ferguson:

I love that nod to experimentation. That’s really the spirit behind why we created Facilitation Lab to create opportunities for folks to practice and explore and learn and build that confidence because there’s really not a lot of opportunities to do that. Oftentimes, people are in high stakes moments. They’re going from one session to the next. They don’t have a built-in time for reflection. Facilitation Lab is about the low-stakes opportunity where there’s going to be plenty of reflection with peers and learning. We really wanted to do that for free so that anyone had access to that ability because it’s important and so needed, and not everyone can afford certification. Anyway, I love that you bring that up. I would like to just end, thinking about the future, as you look out across the horizon of your career, where do you imagine, Neallie, five, 10 years out, and how’s facilitation involving with you and alongside you and what’s changing with you? What’s changing with the landscape? Where do you see things going?

Neallie Kani:

In five years, I think there will be a lot of changes. I may adjust how I lead these sessions. I may have more leaders working with me, more facilitators that I get to work with, and maybe I’m inspired from them and vice versa. In five years, I definitely see myself growing tenfold. From who I am now, I think I’m going to be even stronger in five years. I think I will have a bigger community because one of the things that this certification also brought me was I got to network and meet more people and build that community that I didn’t have before. Three years ago, I was like, “I’m alone and I’m just going to go with the flow.” Now, I know people that I can connect with and say, “Hey, how would you go about this?” In five years, I don’t know, Douglas, I could be doing complete, different methods, but I know that whatever I choose is because I was able to grow and network and learn more from others.

Douglas Ferguson:

I love this focus on learning from others and community. I can say it won’t be five years because it’s going to be not long after the recording of this podcast, so some folks listening, it will already be in the past. I’m actually launching Facilitation Lab Dallas, so I’m headed that way and we’ve already got it scheduled, and hopefully, I can hand the baton off to a regional lead. Because it is quite a drive from Austin to Dallas, but I’m happy to do it because one of our good, awesome community members is going to be in town, Alison Coward. She’s been on the podcast and wrote an amazing book on facilitation that just came out. We’re happy to host her and she’s going to do a book giveaway. I hope you can make it because the spirit and love of community that you’re talking about is the whole reason that we do Lab and why I’ll be in Dallas. Hopefully, I’ll see you there.

Neallie Kani:

Hopefully, and I love anything that Voltage does because you guys bring that community together. You guys bring inspiration and that safety, and it’s just something like, why would I not want to attend that? Why would I not want to be around that?

Douglas Ferguson:

Amazing. Well, we certainly love having you and others. I want to just end really quickly with an opportunity for you to leave our listeners with a final thought.

Neallie Kani:

Don’t be afraid of what you don’t know because you can always learn, and don’t feel like you’re alone because there is always somebody else with the same struggles. When you could connect with that person, you may inspire one another and adapt to the problems or struggles that you’re facing and overcome them.

Douglas Ferguson:

Wow, so good. I hope everyone can take that advice and roll with what is unfolding, so Neallie-

Neallie Kani:

Roll with the punches.

Douglas Ferguson:

That’s right. Neallie, thank you so much for taking the time to sit with me today and chat about the good work you’re doing and your amazing experiences. I hope we can see each other again soon.

Neallie Kani:

Definitely. Thank you for having me, and I hope you have a great day.

Douglas Ferguson:

Thanks for joining me for another episode of the Facilitation Lab podcast. If you enjoyed the episode, please leave us a review and be sure to subscribe and receive updates when new episodes are released. We love listener tales, and invite you to share your facilitation stories. Send them to us on LinkedIn or via email. If you want to know more, head over to our blog where I post weekly articles and resources about facilitation, team dynamics and collaboration, voltagecontrol.com.

The post How Can Effective Facilitation Transform Team Dynamics and Collaboration? appeared first on Voltage Control.

“I allow myself to be very vulnerable and open because I know I’ll grow in it, but I also know it helps others step into being vulnerable alongside me.”- Susan Wilson-Golab

In this episode of the Facilitation Lab podcast, Douglas Ferguson converses with Susan Wilson-Golab about her evolution from a K-12 district administrator to an expert in educational leadership and facilitation. Susan delves into her career progression, the significance of adapting to different organizational cultures, and the patience needed for effective change facilitation. Her reflections offer valuable insights into the world of professional learning and the art of facilitation.

Show Highlights

[00:02:28] Early experience with facilitation
[00:08:59] Transition to facilitation
[00:16:10] Patience in facilitation
[00:23:13] Navigating a Career Transition
[00:26:23] Growth Through Vulnerability
[00:29:00] Embracing Vulnerability for Growth
[00:36:50] Future Horizons and Challenges

Links | Resources

Susan on Linkedin

About the Guest

Prior to receiving her doctorate in Educational Leadership, Susan spent twenty plus years leading adult professional learning. Her professional adventures have included high school English teacher, teacher leadership, Director of the Oakland Writing Project, regional literacy consultant, and K12 district administrator. She has co-authored multiple educational journal articles focused on the teaching of writing.

About Voltage Control

Voltage Control is a facilitation academy that develops leaders through certifications, workshops, and organizational coaching focused on facilitation mastery, innovation, and play. Today’s leaders are confronted with unprecedented uncertainty and complex change. Navigating this uncertainty requires a systemic facilitative approach to gain clarity and chart pathways forward. We prepare today’s leaders for now and what’s next.

Subscribe to Podcast

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Voltage Control on the Web
Contact Voltage Control

Transcript

Douglas Ferguson:

Hi, I’m Douglas Ferguson. Welcome to the Facilitation Lab podcast, where I speak with Voltage Control certification alumni and other facilitation experts about the remarkable impact they’re making. We embrace a method agnostic approach so you can enjoy a wide range of topics and perspectives as we examine all the nuances of enabling meaningful group experiences. This series is dedicated to helping you navigate the realities of facilitating collaboration, ensuring every session you lead becomes truly transformative. Thanks so much for listening. If you’d like to join us for a live session sometime, you can join our Facilitation Lab community. It’s an ideal space to apply what you learn in the podcast in real time with peers. Sign up today at voltagecontrol.com/facilitation-lab, and if you’d like to learn more about our 12-week facilitation certification program, you can read about it at voltagecontrol.com.

Today, I’m with Susan Wilson-Golab. Prior to receiving her doctorate, educational leadership, Susan spent 20 plus years leading adult professional learning. Her professional adventures have included high school English teacher, teacher leadership, director of the Oakland writing project, regional literacy consultant, and K-12 district administrator. She has also co-authored multiple educational journal articles focused on the teaching of writing. Welcome to the show, Susan.

Susan Wilson-Golab:

Hi, thanks for having me.

Douglas Ferguson:

It’s so great to have you. It’s been a moment since the summit and it was such a pleasure having you here in Austin and leading us through an amazing workshop that was based off of your PhD.

Susan Wilson-Golab:

Yeah, I spent months actually wringing my hands over it, because I was going to be working with a different audience than I usually had, and then I realized you really deep-parlay your facilitation. Learning whether you’re in an education-based audience or an industry-based audience, it all transfers.

Douglas Ferguson:

Let’s dial back a moment In my typical tradition, we’ll start off hearing a little bit about how you got your start, or specifically, what was a pivotal moment for you where you realized facilitation was a thing or you were drawn to it, or you just experienced the power of facilitation? What’s one of those early stories that comes to mind?

Susan Wilson-Golab:

Well, I think people would say, “Well, you’re a teacher. Isn’t that what you do on a daily basis?” But really as teachers, especially young teachers, you think about that you’re just the content expert, you’re not really thinking of yourself as a facilitator. So it wasn’t until I landed into a wonderful learning community within a English department in my first job where our department chair would facilitate professional learning with us. And I didn’t know at the time that’s really what I was experiencing, all I knew is I couldn’t get enough of it. We would usually start sometimes very early in the morning before teaching or we would stay hours after school. But I loved the community of it. I loved the constant stretch of the learning. And when she was going to step down from department chair and she was retiring, for a moment I kept looking around the room saying, “Okay. Well, who’s going to step in because we need this experience. We need to continue this community.”

And I realized, “Well, Susan, you might have to step in.” So I always say I’m a reluctant to lead facilitator. People who knew me long ago would’ve said Susan’s a very quiet person. I love to read a room, sit quietly and really watch. And I think I’d been working all my time up to that point where I had that epiphany moment where, “Maybe I have to step up, maybe I have to step up and build that community within the place I’m working with other people.” So I’d say that was very early on, about five to six years into my teaching career. That really opened up for me. I wouldn’t know at the time that I would’ve said I was facilitating. I think I would’ve been saying I was hosting, I was creating a place, a community, and I think I really came into understanding facilitation when I got involved with the National Writing Project. And our local affiliate site was the Oakland Writing Project.

And I started facilitating our four-week summer institutes with a team of two other teachers who were very seasoned and veteran at facilitating. And I was at that point looking for what’s the script, tell me how I do this. And so I really had to learn by doing with the experience in the summer institute. So that would really be where I really turned a corner on facilitation, and that’s where I got the bug to be really the host, the designer, the instigator of bringing things together. And I never seem to shed that identity after making that turn.

Douglas Ferguson:

It’s really interesting that you use these other nouns like host and instigator quite often, folks that are exhibiting facilitation skills or collaborative leadership skills and putting these tools and these competencies to work. They often don’t identify as a facilitator, but there’re these other nouns, these other titles or roles or these identities that they’re called to. I’m curious if you have other thoughts on that.

Susan Wilson-Golab:

Yeah, I think in recent years, especially as I started leaning in on the Voltage Control professional learning, I realized a lot of my early learning and facilitation was being mentored alongside somebody. And so I wasn’t naming certain moves so I didn’t know. I was creating with them. So as I got further along in facilitation, liberating structures, for instance, would be like a model where I’d be looking at some of the protocols and going, “Oh, I kind of created those similar experiences.” So I think early on it was a very organic, I was watching and creating and thinking about the experience. And as I’ve gotten more seasoned at it, the more I’m naming what I’m doing, the more I can experience another facilitator’s moves and I can see behind it to see how they’re weaving together different protocols, maybe how they’re thinking about their arcs and how they want to have us have an experience. But in my early years of facilitation, I was totally not aware of that orchestration. I was doing it organically alongside those who I think probably had ways of naming it and I didn’t.

Douglas Ferguson:

Yeah, that’s really fascinating, this level of maturity and situational awareness that you speak about. And it can help us plan and be more mindful of how we approach facilitation. Do you recall a moment or a trigger where you feel like you transitioned or is it more just iterative over time?

Susan Wilson-Golab:

I would say I led the facilitation work with the writing project for I’d say three or four summers. And I’d say during that time I started also leading more inside of my district work, and I was leading more meetings. I was putting together different projects, and so I was having to design and facilitate that. And I’d say I really made that turn when I saw that it was feeling more comfortable, like it was in my bones, it was me, and I saw the impact it was having on others when they were conveying to me how powerful the community was that we had, how sad they were when something wrapped up. And I saw this tremendous impact that I was having in creating these experiences. And I think that was really the trigger that also led me to leave the classroom and to become more of a regional consultant.

And that’s when I really made the shift because my whole job was leading and developing professional learning. It wasn’t unusual for me to be in front of a few hundred people or try and create a workshop that had 70 people in it, but trying to make it really impactful when there’s one of you or two with some co-leads, all the decision making that I had to do.

So my facilitation journey really started, I think in a really small context where I was with small groups, and then the more I got confident and the more I pushed to be in that world of facilitation, the bigger the audiences became for me, and the stakes got higher as well. A lot of the things that I was leading were statewide projects that had to have deliverables, and I’d not ever had that kind of pressure on me as a facilitator. Now it wasn’t about just helping people through a journey, you also had to do it in a way that got to a deliverable and make it meaningful to them and as authentic as possible. But that was also tricky. So it was like layers of complexity kept coming on each year I continued in that role as a facilitator.

Douglas Ferguson:

It’s interesting. At first I was noticing this maybe level of practice that was happening where you were just getting more reps and more opportunity, but then as the story unfolded, I was hearing that there was also to use your language, these layers of complexity or the stakes were getting higher and higher the deeper you went. And it seems like those two things probably correlate.

Susan Wilson-Golab:

Yeah. It’s one thing to say, “I really want to create this professional learning community that people want to be in because they feel it’s feeding their needs, whatever their individual needs are for learning, for stretching themselves in their practice.” That can be pretty organic and you can allow for people to go in lots of different directions. But when you start having to come in and get a group to a finish line, but you don’t want to do it in such a way that they don’t feel like it’s a ride they even want to be on, you have to then really think about, well, how do we get there in a way that honors also what they feel they need in this experience? So that really, I think, significantly upped my learning curve.

And it was during those years when I was a regional literacy consultant that because I was working basically with the Michigan Department of Education in some respects, in terms of turnaround with schools, I had a lot of opportunities to learn lots of different models of coaching, of protocols to use. And so I kept beefing up this toolbox that I had, but I was also adamant that it wasn’t about just being one model, which I would butt heads with colleagues, because when you are working for a larger governmental agency, you have to follow certain ways that they want the work to happen. And so as a facilitator, sometimes I felt that my hands were tied to coach people into leading the experiences with district members in ways that weren’t necessarily how I thought would get them to the best finish line.

Douglas Ferguson:

How did that unfold for you when you’re in those experiences? What were some of the tactics that you found were really helpful, and then how did it turn out?

Susan Wilson-Golab:

I think one of the things was getting an opportunity to design a learning experience with one of our districts that we were working with and having some of my colleagues alongside in that, and they were experiencing it, the learning alongside the district administrators and leaders. And at the end it was like, “Oh, I see what you did there.” And that was amazing how it had this level of impact. So I found the opportunities where I could put them into an experience and it would start shifting their perspective of what’s the best way to facilitate a certain project or a certain group to get to what they felt were the deliverables. So I was a part of a very large organization that, again, facilitation is not… Everybody has learned on different paths, and we were all coming together as consultants and we all had very different styles, and so we all would have opportunities to learn from each other, and that’s where you would start seeing some epiphanies, some alignments, some changes.

But I found it was more impactful to have someone experience it versus me saying, “You could do it this way or research says.” That wasn’t going to change anybody’s mind about what’s the best way we go about this. Ultimately, I left the regional role to be in a district system because I was wanting to have more ownership over how you could design projects going forward. And I also felt that I could be closer again to the individuals, the teachers, administrators, the students in which I wanted to create a positive impact for. So to your question, how did I finally handle that? In some respects, it led me to take a different path.

Douglas Ferguson:

And oftentimes the frustrations, the frictions are signals that we’re not on the path, we’re in the briars. One thing I wanted to touch back on was something that emerged from me as I was hearing about your experiences of them getting the epiphany at the end. And it made me think about the word patience, the patience that we expect out of our participants and the patience that is required of us to be willing to let our participants be in a state that… They might not be where we want them, but having the patience to know that they’ll get there. I’m curious. I bet you have a lot of experience around this, so I’d love to hear your thoughts on that duality.

Susan Wilson-Golab:

Oh, yes. So in the work that I’ve done, I always call it, it’s really identity work because a lot of the times I was called in or leading something with practitioners, it was because there was the hope for some type of evolution or growth or shift in practice. And people step into that with values and beliefs on what they think is the best way for someone to learn or to experience something, and that it’s a lot wrapped in their identity. It’s their values, it’s their lived experience. So how far you need to try and nudge that can take time, and it needs to be done, as you said, at a pace that is respectful of the person who’s on a journey to make that transformational shift. So when I would be called in to work with a district system or a group of teachers, many times I was talking with someone higher up in a leadership role and their mindset was, “Well, can you work them with them for two full days? And by the end of that, can they have made this big a shift?” Which was usually a no.

So there was a total underestimating of how much time really people need to sit in something, and to sit in it in a way where there’s a constant little bit of burn that keeps the fire going versus we’re going to do a session and you’re not going to talk about it or think about it for a month and then we’re going to come back together and I’ll expect that probably you’ve made a change. It doesn’t work that way. Where are those continuity lines of, what are you trying? What are you thinking about? How are you continuing to reflect on this? When you’ve tried something out, what has happened? What has that made you think now differently? What are you going to try the next time? It’s all those multiple iterations that need to really be there if you’re really trying to shift people in whatever practice or shift in what you’re hoping to grow them to.

But unfortunately, many times what I have encountered is this idea of a one and done. In education, it’s very hard for teachers to be outside of their classrooms. So there’s a lot of pressure that whatever they’re pulled out to do, it better not be for very much time and great things better come out of it. So that has been my experience in an education-based facilitation for the most part. And that has always been very hard. You have to negotiate usually as if I was a facilitator talking with an administrator asking me to come in and consult, I’d have to manage their expectations and also get clarity of where really realistically we can get.

And so I really had to build that part of my facilitation learning, which is really the pre-facilitation where you’re talking with the potential clients, so to speak, and you’re trying to figure out what they really, really want. Because many times they don’t articulate exactly what they really want. They think they are, but after you have a conversation and you say some things back and pose it differently, it would be very different than what they thought they were saying was the thing that needed to happen.

Douglas Ferguson:

And what’s your go-to strategy or tactic to get the juice there, to get to the reality?

Susan Wilson-Golab:

Oh, I usually would try and have one or two pre-conversations before coming in, and I would really be open-ended questions like, “Tell me about what’s going on, what are you hoping for? What do you think are the biggest obstacles? What do you think looks like the ultimate? If we could beat this, what would it look like? What would it sound like?” And so really me talking less, them talking more and continue those open-ended questions. So I’d want to exhaust them with it. There’s a fine line where you can ask too many questions, but it was really getting them to talk out loud about what is it that your thinking is the need here. But also finding out the sticky spots because many times I also wanted to understand things in the contextual system because sometimes that was going to undo anything. So I could come in and work on something, but they would unknowingly be perpetuating something in their routines that was going to not make it work.

Douglas Ferguson:

In addition to these elements that might be detracting from the work, what other things are you listening for in these conversations?

Susan Wilson-Golab:

I’m always trying to understand the culture. Any place has a culture and you’re stepping into it. Many times when I was called in to consult and hired in, even outside of the system where I was working, I learned very quickly I was being called in because one, it might be too dangerous for anyone internally to do the work. Two, things were broken and I needed to understand really quickly, what were the dynamics going on in that context? What was the culture? Because how I designed also the learning and how I thought about who also were the individuals who were going to be coming into the room. I needed to understand what they were living in and how safe or dangerous it was for them to even push in certain directions with some of their instructional practices.

Douglas Ferguson:

So I want to talk a little bit about the transition you made from K-12 into embracing facilitation in more diverse context. And I’m curious if you could share a pivotal moment that signified to you that the transition was not just necessary but possible.

Susan Wilson-Golab:

I think that I started thinking about this in the last, I’d say three years before I ended my K-12 career. And I had been a part of some community stakeholder meetings, and Eric, your colleague and I had actually led some of these community stakeholder meetings. We were as a district going for a really large bond to totally overhaul almost every single building in the district. And so it was navigating working with community members, it was teachers, it was administrators, it was parents. And seeing that design play out and standing alongside Eric who we had done educational consulting work together, and now he was starting to make that straddling out of not just education but into industry. I think that was the moment that I was like, “Huh, I’ve been doing this in education, but maybe other people value it outside of education.” And that’s when I started getting involved in Voltage Control in workshops in the lab.

And I had great imposter syndrome the first, I’d say two years because I was in awe of the people I was meeting virtually around the globe. And when they would in breakout rooms, be really interested in what I had to say, I was always surprised. I didn’t really think I was going to bring anything that fantastic to the table here. I was an educator and my facilitation was all in that world, but I was finding that people were seeking me out who weren’t educators and who wanted me to be a thinking partner with them. And through those conversations, it was like for me, I felt like I was gaining more than I was giving because I was like, “Oh, I guess I really do know something here and I do think it can translate and I need to explore this.” And so that’s really the road I’m on at this point, is seeing how I pivot what I’ve learned into a non-education based audience.

But also, it never stops. You have to continuously be learning. So I certainly don’t feel like I climbed the mountain. I’m at the top. As AI has come on and ChatGPT, a lot of work is gone to all online. And so doing really impactful facilitation in a digital world, those are all those new stretch points for me. And it’s exciting. It’s exciting to really keep growing.

Douglas Ferguson:

It’s interesting you brought up imposter syndrome because I was going to that next, because you had mentioned earlier in the episode about wringing your hands over the talk at the summit, and this came up in your alumni story too. And so I wanted to come back to clearly you experience it like many people, myself included, but you’ve overcome it. And so I’m curious, what strategies or mindsets did you find to be the most effective in overcoming these barriers?

Susan Wilson-Golab:

I think for me, I’ve been blessed with having some great mentor and shoulder partners who are always confirming, you really do know something that’s valuable. But honestly, I put my hand up to facilitate at the summit because I was like, this is the moment I have to push myself to lead a group that is not an education-based audience. And so that leading up to that session, I was continuously designing, redesigning, designing, redesigning. My internal voice was talking back to me saying, “Susan, what are you doing? You don’t usually need this much time to put a session together. What is going on?” And it was my constant fear of am I not going to know the audience? And that’s where I realized, I really rely heavily on knowing my audience when I designed facilitation and I was really questioning if I knew them well enough.

And so by living through that experience and having people give me positive feedback after, that was the ripping the bandaid off moment for me. Like, “Okay, I’ve done it. I can do this.” And even though I’ve been involved in some other facilitation with Voltage Control, that summit was probably the most pivotal turn for me because I had to on my own stand up and do that work. I on my own designed it. I didn’t have any scaffold crutches in that process. So thank you for allowing me to facilitate the summit and make that big growth leap for myself.

Douglas Ferguson:

Happy to do so. And it’s by design. We pivoted the summit to focus on students and alumni and really provide these opportunities for practice and growth. And I was hopeful it would be transformative. And it sounds like we’re doing a decent job there. So I’m thrilled and we’re happy to have you. And it makes me think of something else I wanted to bring up with you, which is this idea of embracing vulnerability and stepping outside of comfort zones and how crucial that is for growth. And so I’d just be curious to hear how vulnerabilities played a role in your facilitation practice as a core, and especially when dealing with unfamiliar audiences.

Susan Wilson-Golab:

So in my writing project background and in the teaching of writing, I really developed my own ability to be vulnerable with others because writing is really many times brings up vulnerabilities for people. And also in the work that we were doing through our writing project site, those four-week institutes were transformative where you were really working on making some deep shifts for people. And we learn to handle many times deep emotions. So I don’t get afraid anymore when I see some emotions bubble up for people in a session, I can lean into it. And so that background experience really helped me. So it taught me to turn a switch. So when I know that I’m hosting and trying to create that experience for others, I allow myself to be very vulnerable, to be very open because I know I’ll grow in it, but I know it also helps them step into being vulnerable alongside me.

So going into the summit, I made a decision to be pretty vulnerable in that room because I knew I was designing something that could potentially make them feel very vulnerable. So I knew I had to right off the bat, have a voice of connection with them, and this is me, the sincerity, the honesty, me without putting on any facade, and I’m willing to share these struggles I have in the invitation that they may also be bringing up their own. So I have to say it was really a background from the writing project that helped me do that.

Douglas Ferguson:

Isn’t it interesting how some of these moments through our career and our life journey can just stick with us and inform all the future things we do? It’s quite cool. I did want to touch on your doctorate really quickly, and when we were talking about it at the summit, you told me about how the work you were doing was based on going through and cataloging and analyzing your journals throughout your life. I found that really fascinating, and especially in this conversation around vulnerability and how writing can bring up emotions. And there’s a reason people lock their diaries, they don’t want their older brother reading them. And so here you are, this future version of yourself going back and reading these things and going through them in a very methodological way. And so I’m curious, how did that feel peering back at yourself? Did you notice a vulnerableness to that?

Susan Wilson-Golab:

Oh yeah. So it was an auto ethnography approach to the research. And so yes, I am a proliferate hoarder of my notebooks. I’m eclectic too. I grab a notebook and sometimes it can have multiple things in it. It’s not just for one purpose or one group. So I had journals from my undergrad college days all the way up to present day. And what I was looking at was the impact of being a teacher leader, but being a leader of for other adults is really at the heart of teacher leadership and how that had impacted my identity evolution across 20 plus years. And I had to suspend, it wasn’t about me coming to what I wanted was the conclusion. I had to see it as data on the paper. And there were errors. I started seeing phases. And so I started creating timelines. And there were times in my life that as I was reliving them in the notebook, I was like, “Can this please be done again?” I was a lot to take back then.

And it was also very vulnerable for me to choose that as my dissertation because I had to use some very personal information and I was talking about me. And a lot of the data excerpts that I put in my dissertation are extremely vulnerable pieces about me struggling in some way with who am I, where am I going, what am I doing? And my committee chair and committee members were even commending me for the courage to do what I did because they chose not to do an auto ethnography themselves. They wanted to keep it distant from them. So I don’t know why that is. As I said, I’ve been an introvert, a really quiet person, but I also feel like these authentic connections are so powerful. And so I, when I feel like I have sincerity with the person, I will be very vulnerable and open up. And so that dissertation definitely was a journey, and there are definitely some errors of my life that I’m glad are done.

Douglas Ferguson:

It’s interesting your point you made about you were a lot to take at that point, and it reminded me of the point we were making about patience, and you had to be patient with yourself as you were reliving that. And wow, what a profound thing to experience. Because if you can be patient with yourself, this part of yourself that you don’t appreciate a lot or that you’re like, “I’m glad that I’m not that anymore,” I imagine that can be a great tool for being more patient with others that are maybe not cooperating with whatever we’re trying to do.

Susan Wilson-Golab:

Well, I think one of my favorite phrases in the last few years is about giving grace. Giving grace to those who you see that they’re having a struggle. They might not even know that they’re in midst of some conflict, internal conflict, but outwardly it’s coming out. And many times as that’s become a thread in education as well, is like instead of the quick reaction of jumping to conclusions and negative conclusions, how can you give grace more frequently and really step back and try and understand where are they at? What is going on in their lives at this point? And I feel very blessed that I was surrounded by a lot of mentors who gave me a lot of grace in some certain parts of my life professionally.

Douglas Ferguson:

Well, we’re reaching the end here, and I wanted to end by just peering into the future a little bit. And so you’ve achieved a significant number of milestones in your career and have gone through this transition, are now looking at a diversity of different facilitation environments. So I’m just curious, what new horizons and challenges are you looking forward to exploring?

Susan Wilson-Golab:

I think of Eli Wood. When I had a conversation with Eli, one of our Voltage Control colleagues, and I hadn’t quite made that leap yet. I hadn’t retired from my K-12 to go into full-time consulting. And he said one of his wise mentors that says, “You’ve got to get hungry.” And I have constantly come back to that phrase of like, now’s the time to take the leap and to really to dig in and to make facilitation a full-time part of my life, and for it to be beyond an educational based audience. I think my heart will always be somewhat tied to trying to grow future teacher leaders who in essence, what I am probably growing is them as facilitators. Because a lot of your leading is about facilitating and your peers as a teacher leader. And that was what my dissertation was really around.

But I really want to branch out into just audiences who it’s not about what industry they’re from. You’re creating some transformative experience for them. And to design into multiple kinds of situations, I really am excited. There are days where I’m a little bit, not scared, but it’s not a path I know. So I’m learning tremendously every day. How do you make this happen? This isn’t a K-12 or higher ed education endeavor now. This is like edupreneur, like an entrepreneurial educator who’s branching out, and it’s exciting and it’s daunting at the same time. But I’ve made it to this point, it’s time to take that plunge and persevere and make it happen.

Douglas Ferguson:

It’s exciting. Well, I hope that maybe some listeners out there are on the same precipice, and maybe this gives them a little bit of confidence and encourage listeners to check out Susan’s good work, and maybe she can inspire you to make that leap that you need to make. And Susan, it’s been a pleasure chatting with you today and hope to talk to you again soon.

Susan Wilson-Golab:

Thanks Douglas.

Douglas Ferguson:

Thanks for joining me for another episode of the Facilitation Lab podcast. If you enjoyed the episode, please leave us a review and be sure to subscribe and receive updates when new episodes are released. We love listener tales and invite you to share your facilitation stories. Send them to us on LinkedIn or via email. If you want to know more, head over to our blog, or I post weekly articles and resources about facilitation, team dynamics and collaboration, voltagecontrol.com.

The post How Can Facilitation Transform Professional Learning in Education? appeared first on Voltage Control.

“Delight is actually a combination of multiple emotions; it is joy coupled with surprise. So, I’ve really been thinking about how I can bring in more of that delight with very small tweaks to our everyday rituals at my company.”- JJ Rogers

In this episode of the Facilitation Lab podcast, host Douglas Ferguson speaks with JJ Rogers, Director of Product Design at Watermark and a facilitation expert. They discuss JJ’s facilitation journey, from his early career to his current role, emphasizing the importance of engaging activities and setting clear expectations. JJ shares his strategies for combating disengagement, particularly in virtual meetings, by creating novel experiences and incorporating user feedback. They also touch on the scaled agile framework and the significance of preparation in facilitation. The episode concludes with JJ’s focus on bringing joy into everyday meetings and his successful mentorship program at UXPA.

Show Highlights

[00:01:31] JJ’s Introduction to Facilitation
[00:08:01] JJ shares notable experiences and lessons learned from conducting workshops, including the importance of setting expectations.
[00:16:27] JJ reflects on his journey from following a formula to customizing activities and tailoring content to individuals.
[00:21:06] Discussing the challenges of getting upper management to adopt facilitation techniques and the impact of leading activities in broader team settings.
[00:27:26] The significance of marking team transitions and celebrating achievements to maintain team cohesion and culture.
[00:33:07] The importance of pre-planning and preparation in facilitation to ensure effective outcomes in collaborative activities.
[00:38:53] Exploring the concept of delight in user experience and the vision of incorporating delight into everyday rituals through small tweaks.

Links | Resources

JJ on Linkedin
JJ on X
JJ on Voltage Control

About the Guest

JJ is the Head of Product Design at Watermark and leads a team of 8 product designers focused on building engaging, delightful & accessible product experiences for higher ed. His background includes teaching User Experience Design at General Assembly and designing digital experiences for ICANN, Stanford University, and Dotdash Meredith. He received his BA in Design from the University of Northern Iowa.

About Voltage Control

Voltage Control is a facilitation academy that develops leaders through certifications, workshops, and organizational coaching focused on facilitation mastery, innovation, and play. Today’s leaders are confronted with unprecedented uncertainty and complex change. Navigating this uncertainty requires a systemic facilitative approach to gain clarity and chart pathways forward. We prepare today’s leaders for now and what’s next.

Subscribe to Podcast

Engage Control The Room

Voltage Control on the Web
Contact Voltage Control

Transcript

Douglas Ferguson:

Hi, I’m Douglas Ferguson. Welcome to the Facilitation Lab Podcast where I speak with Voltage Control certification alumni and other facilitation experts about the remarkable impact they’re making. We embrace a method agnostic approach so you can enjoy a wide range of topics and perspectives as we examine all the nuances of enabling meaningful group experiences. This series is dedicated to helping you navigate the realities of facilitating collaboration, ensuring every session you lead becomes truly transformative. Thanks so much for listening. If you’d like to join us for a live session sometime, you can join our Facilitation Lab community. It’s an ideal space to apply what you learn in the podcast in real time with peers. Sign up today at voltagecontrol.com/facilitation-lab. If you’d like to learn more about our twelve-week facilitation certification program, you can read about it at voltagecontrol.com.

Today I’m with JJ Rogers. JJ is the Director of Product Design at Watermark, where he is all about elevating the user experience in higher ed. Recently, he led the charge on a mentorship program at UXPA in Austin, connecting early career designers with seasoned pros. And he’s also a founding member of our Facilitation Lab. Welcome to the show, JJ.

JJ Rogers:

Hello, Douglas. Thank you for having me. Very happy to be here.

Douglas Ferguson:

It’s great to have you. Per usual, let’s get our start hearing a little bit about how you got your start. How did you get introduced to facilitation, start getting curious about this work and diving into the art of facilitation?

JJ Rogers:

Good question. I think I became interested in facilitation through, well, naturally being in design, in product design. There is a level of facilitation I think that’s needed to present and share your work and get feedback on your work from various stakeholders. My first job out of college was at a software company, very kind of old school software company called Meta, pre-Facebook’s Meta. It was actually Meta, it had a longer name, Meta Communications, et cetera, but we all called it Meta. I worked with a bunch of Russian engineers in Iowa City, Iowa. Lots of black tea, dark chocolate, and scotch. Scotch was used for both celebration and if the engineers were really pissed off.

It was my first design job, I would say, I didn’t think I was doing much facilitation. I was simply just kind of a heads down in my cubicle, creating designs, creating interaction designs. I did a little more marketing design at that time and sort of transitioned into software, prototyping software, wireframing the interfaces, and I think I failed a lot. I think I wasn’t able to get a lot of my ideas across that I wanted to. I wasn’t maybe managing stakeholders properly. I was very reactive in how I was sharing my work, and I worked there for a couple years. I learned a lot, but I definitely knew I wanted to…

At that time, I think UX as a term was starting to emerge, or maybe it was becoming more popular. I was really looking for careers or job titles that were really not just thinking of design as an afterthought, but really were fully focused on building a better user experience for the customers. And I was looking for a job outside of Iowa, so I came across an agency called Four Kitchens in Austin, Texas. I was really excited because, I don’t know why, but I think maybe in college you hear about agencies or consultancies and you’re like, “That is where I want to work.” They get all the good business. There’s definitely a variety of projects to work on, so you don’t really have to be honed into a particular domain or project for long periods of time.

I was really excited about that, and that is probably where I was really introduced to facilitation as I know it today. The leader of the company of Four Kitchens, Todd Nienkirk was very adamant about having all of our project kickoffs on site. While we were mostly a remote company where we did the work out of Austin, Texas, and we had clients all over the US, we would always have an on-site kickoff. I remember attending a couple of those, just kind of as in a very passive role and being very excited about the activities that we did, how we got to know the different clients and understand their pain points. He was a really big Gamestorming lover. Gamestorming was our Bible. I remember him walking around the office and if he couldn’t find the Gamestorming book, he was freaking out, “Where’s that book?” And then he ordered multiple copies because people kept stealing it.

That kind of kicked off, piqued my interest, and then after a while at the company, I started to lead activities. They needed more people to go in and do these project kickoffs with clients. I think the first activity that I did was a pre-mortem for a university out of California, Monterey Bay, which is a beautiful area of California. I remember I went up to the whiteboard and I started drawing this graveyard and trying to make it look really cool and started leading this group of strangers through an activity of, imagine if this project failed, why did it fail, what killed it? Here lies the name of the project. It was really fun. It was very interactive and it was definitely, I think, a turning point to how I saw how I could really influence a group of stakeholders to get to whatever outcome I was trying to achieve.

So that was really fun. From there, I sort of slowly grew my arsenal of mostly design thinking activities, personas, empathy maps, journey maps, and that sort of became my wheelhouse, my job as I grew as a designer at this agency. I worked there for four years. Really, really great partnerships. For me, I think it was a wonderful learning experience because of exactly what I said of why I wanted to go to an agency or consultancy, is you just got to work across such a variety of different clients and projects and we’re able to try new things and experiment quite often. Contrast today in-house where we’re really trying to set up processes that can be repeatable over and over and over. A little different there. That’s how I got my interest.

Douglas Ferguson:

Wow, really cool. I love the story of the boss looking around for Gamestorming constantly and copies disappearing and more appearing. And certainly the pre-mortem’s a fantastic activity. What a fun way to start. Are there any other workshops in those days that come to mind that are notable for whatever reason?

JJ Rogers:

Yeah. Notable? Let’s see. Gosh, there was one time we had a client come in who they had to come in on a weekend because they couldn’t come during the week or whatever. Everyone had to come in on the weekend and do this workshop. It was a little bit of a curmudgeon. I remember from the opener we did two truths and a lie, not having it. Not having at all. It was very clear from the beginning, like, “I did not fly here from wherever to do this, to spend time getting to know you on this personal level and having fun. Let’s get down to business.” That was kind of a scary moment, but an excellent learning experience around setting expectations and what we’re going to do and why we’re going to do this activity and how important it’s to build trust at the beginning of a project so that as we’re working together and problems are going to arise, that we have a little bit of that kind of psychological safety already established and know each other as humans.

Douglas Ferguson:

That’s so critical, setting expectations ahead of time. How do you think that moment shaped your thoughts on setting expectations?

JJ Rogers:

Well, good question. I think for me, it’s made me more mindful about explaining what we’re going to do, not just what we’re going to do and how we’re going to do it, but why we’re going to do it. Just making sure I’m inserting that why. Maybe not even ahead of time in an agenda or anything, but during that intro explanation to any sort of activity of just giving a little snippet on the why. Maybe not giving everything away, because sometimes you do want to reflect on the learning afterwards, and then you don’t always know what the outcome’s going to be.

Douglas Ferguson:

Yeah, that’s so critical. Often we’ve talked about, if you can’t ask the group why we just did that after doing anything with a group and it not erupted into a really pithy conversation, then we should be asking ourselves as facilitators, why did we just do that?

JJ Rogers:

Yeah. There were definitely lessons like that. I think at the consultancy it was just a lot of practice and repetition, draw your homepage, co-designing, those sort of activities, which really led me into… So after Four Kitchens, I went into teaching. I taught at General Assembly and was teaching the user experience design immersive, which is a ten-week bootcamp, really re-skilling adult learners going from a former career in anything or sometimes coming fresh out of a degree, like a bachelor’s degree or master’s degree, not being able to find a job, so taking a bootcamp to transition into tech. We’re teaching adults, and I think that having that background and facilitation helped me be more successful. One, I had to teach these activities. I had to teach design thinking, but there’s definitely parallels between teaching a classroom, which may seem like more traditional kind of format.

With General Assembly, we really tried to be very… Well, it was very immersive, within the name. It was smaller classes. Maybe our classes ranged from 12 to 18, maybe sometimes we had 20. They’ve probably grown. But with teaching adults, you had to learn how to add some checks for understanding, if you’re teaching a concept in there. So making sure that you are including the class for some sort of feedback that you can incorporate into maybe rephrasing something or realizing you have to re-explain something or teach it again. I think the one thing it really taught me was the art of repeating myself or just repetition. Repetition with instruction, changing how you do it, and not taking that personally. When you have a classroom full of people, a certain percentage just aren’t going to get it the first time you explain it, so making sure you’re building on that until everyone has a better understanding.

Douglas Ferguson:

And when we think about cross-functional teams too, that need to collaborate and work together, not everyone’s always in the same meetings. So repetitions is a critical leadership skill that people don’t talk about enough.

JJ Rogers:

Or I run across people who get frustrated because they’re like, “Well, I thought we shared this out. I thought we explained this.” It takes a while, especially I think with Zoom these days. There’s a large percentage of folks are distracted constantly, so it’s really even less than that. In the classroom at least we could really control for that variable because we were all in one room and it was great. We could do a lot of in-person sticky notes on the wall. Gosh, I don’t really use sticky notes anymore.

Douglas Ferguson:

Yeah. What are you using instead of sticky notes nowadays?

JJ Rogers:

We’re using Mural, so I guess the virtual version of sticky notes we’re definitely using. I’m using sticky notes for maybe what their original intention was, just to write little notes to myself and stick them on my desk.

It was really great. I loved it. That was a great time in my career. It was also located within WeWork, downtown Austin, and the environment, the bustling energy of WeWork at that time, I don’t know why I look at it now and think of that as like, oh, those were the good old days. There were so many startups and you would meet people. Every day you’re meeting new people just bumping into them having coffee. I was able to get a number of freelance jobs out of it. A lot of people were really interested in UX design, and it was a really good environment for learning and collaborating.

Douglas Ferguson:

Well. How did this transition from being in a consultancy to then now teaching, how did transition impact your perspective on facilitation?

JJ Rogers:

Well, I think even at my consultancy, I don’t know if I use the word, I don’t know if we use the word facilitation even that often. It was kind of more around leading this activity, doing this kickoff. We thought about it more project based, even though that is what we were doing. When I transitioned into teaching, I think the biggest difference is that I knew I was leading and I was being very intentional about whatever I was trying to teach or whatever activity we were trying to complete. Even if we weren’t teaching something, but we were doing an activity to craft the classroom values, and we needed to get input with everybody and maybe break up into small groups and then come together, I think I was just much more intentional about designing activities for the classroom. Whereas with the consultancy, in my mind back then, and maybe it was my maturity with facilitation, I was kind of just, oh, I’m just going to follow this playbook that’s already kind of pre-written, right?

Douglas Ferguson:

Mm.

JJ Rogers:

We have these design thinking activities. We’ve done this sort of ceremony before. We’re going to start with an opener, this icebreaker, so I’m just going to do it. I wasn’t as maybe creative about tailoring the content to the individuals. There definitely were people that I worked with that were doing that, but I think I was early in my stage where I really just kind of wanted to follow a formula.

Douglas Ferguson:

Yeah, that’s interesting. I think that is a pattern that we see with a lot of folks when they start out, the formulas, the patterns, the structures are really valuable. Then over time, as people get more comfortable, they tend to customize more. They tend to lean into the emergence or adapt to whatever’s happening in the space a little more fluidly. I’m curious, it seems like you’re kind of echoing that journey, that arc that I’ve seen before. Is that resonating to you?

JJ Rogers:

Yeah, that definitely is. I think I’m at a place now at Watermark where that is what I’m seeing is… Well, and I would contrast being in-house too, to being a consultancy where you have a lot of variety of clients. And there’s other variables that you have to account for because they’re new stakeholders that you’ve never met before, new clients, their projects might be very different. The content shifts a lot, whereas being in-house, it can get more mundane. I want to intentionally try new things and change this, even if I can just tweak it slightly. You kind of need that variability to hold people’s attention. Otherwise, we’re just going through the motions and we’re doing this same sailboat retrospective again.

Douglas Ferguson:

What’s your go-to approach to mixing it up so you’re not just going to the same metaphors or same activities over and over again?

JJ Rogers:

I guess my approach would be just to make it different. Like I said, I think the biggest hurdle is kind of playing with novelty and variety, so no one gets bored with the same thing. When we have rituals, I think it’s important to have rituals to create some structure, but I don’t know. I mean, definitely playing around with whatever’s topical. Whatever’s going on, either, I don’t know, with the company at the time, or maybe there’s some sort of seasonal thing, making it celebratory towards something like Global Accessibility Awareness Day is something we’re going to celebrate this week, so how can I incorporate that into the all hands this week or bring in some sort of game that also is a learning activity for the team to learn a little bit about accessibility? This actually came from General Assembly where we’d play a version of Jeopardy Bingo, a game, a learning game. Bringing that over to my team to learn a little bit about accessibility was one way that I brought that over. That was fun.

I would say, yeah, some ways to break it up. Okay, so now I’m thinking. One way is spreading the responsibility around. Even though I am in charge of this team, I don’t have to be the person to lead every single activity. In fact, I don’t want that to be the case. I want to make sure that I’m upskilling my team in their facilitation skills as well. While I may lead an opener, icebreaker type activity initially, now my team does that and we take turns and everyone gets to practice that opener. Same with critique sessions. That’s led by the person that needs critique, or we have a learning forum. This week we have a representative from our design system who’s going to run that forum. Finding ways where, one, it’s not all on my shoulders, but also that does provide more variety for the team. Then they have an opportunity to learn and hear from someone else and watch someone else practice.

Douglas Ferguson:

That practice is so key. You even mentioned earlier that the consultancy gave you lots of opportunities to practice, and I love that as a leader, you’re passing the marker, or at least the spotlight on others so that they can have a moment to either pick the warmup, run the up, or even just schedule in a spot that’s variable from time to time. I think that shows a facilitative style to leadership, not necessarily having to be the one to facilitate, but encouraging others to adopt the skills. Then that has a way of proliferating through the organization more largely.

JJ Rogers:

Yeah, that’s a good point. Speaking of through the organization more largely too, that’s something that with my role, sure, I can practice these facilitation techniques with my team, but how do I then get my boss to want to maybe make a meeting better? And so some ways that I practice that would be if I have an opportunity, for example, we have an all hands, which includes everybody on our product team, product management, scrum, masters, multiple roles, and I might volunteer and say, “Okay, I’m going to lead the opener of this,” or, “this activity, I’d really like to do breakout rooms.” I’ll go ahead and lead that portion of it because my manager isn’t as comfortable with those sort of skills. Anything that I can do to, one, practice those skills on a broader team that maybe I’m not directly leading, but also I think I have seen then a natural appetite start to arise for more collaborative sessions that aren’t just the status quo of what it’s always been.

Douglas Ferguson:

Yeah, it’s interesting how infectious this stuff can be when folks attend sessions that are more inclusive, that are more fun, frankly, but also get better outcomes where we’re not left with more questions than we started with. Everyone appreciates it, and so it has a virality to it.

JJ Rogers:

Yeah, definitely. I think there’s something too I think I mentioned earlier about Zoom, like people on Zoom being distracted. I read a quote, I don’t know, I think it’s by Adam Grant, and maybe you’ve read it too, about Zoom fatigue, and it’s not really fatigue, it’s actually boredom. Or it’s not burnout, it’s bore out. When meetings are virtual, it’s not that we’re overwhelmed, we’re understimulated, which leads us to actually do something else, look at my phone, or I’m in a multitask on Slack, and it’s because of this boredom with what’s going on right now. That only emphasizes the point of really trying to create these novel, fun engagements to combat that. You’re constantly trying to combat that.

Douglas Ferguson:

The other key is that we have to ensure people are connected to it because it’s easy to come in and try and dazzle people with something a bit different and novel, but if they struggle connecting to it, and it comes back to your point around the expectations too, the why, but also why is it important to them? How do they connect to it in a meaningful way? If they’re not, that’s another source of disengagement.

JJ Rogers:

Yeah, that is true. The novelty doesn’t last.

Douglas Ferguson:

What are some things that you found useful in your work, whether it’s connecting to the values or something that the team finds really motivating? In fact, you mentioned already educating folks on not only bringing a theme in, but educating them on the importance of it or educating them on how it works. Has that been really effective or are there other things that you lean in on to get people really engaged and connected to the concepts?

JJ Rogers:

I think for user experience design, one of the themes that I think is kind of the most effective that I’ve seen time and time again is when they can be connected to an individual or they can be connected to somebody that they’ve talked to that is actually using their product. I think whenever we get direct feedback from a client that is very specific around a certain feature or an area of a product that we had a designer or product team member work on, that positive feedback is just so rewarding. It’s so rewarding because we can tell them they did a great job all day every day, but when you actually hear it from an end user, it’s very rewarding. That isn’t something that we’re always able to solicit even. We can try and solicit it, but we’re doing research to kind of learn, not necessarily just tell us what we did.

I would say just keeping that customer’s story, keeping the user’s journey top of mind, I think is a natural motivator. This leads me to another thing too, related to just celebrating. Making sure that we are taking time to celebrate these moments when they happened, otherwise we’re just moving on to the next thing. We’re not taking the time to stop and think. Related to celebrating, you know the stages of teams, like forming, norming, storming?

Douglas Ferguson:

Mm-hm.

JJ Rogers:

I don’t even know them all. Anyway, the last one is adjourning, and I’ve never focused on the last stages of team, like adjourning? That’s a thing? Well, I had a team transition. We were moving a teammate from one to another, and I don’t know, I just had this idea of like, “Well, why can’t that be a ritual? The adjourning. I mean, this person isn’t leaving the company. They’re literally just going to be doing different work.” But we created a ritual, a ceremony, an adjournment ceremony, and we really celebrated this person’s accomplishments and really the team’s accomplishments with this person because they’re all contributing towards the same goal, marking that moment of time of this team is really no longer going to be the same. With every person that leaves, the culture changes a little bit. With every new person you add, the culture changes a little bit. We just wanted to mark that in time.

It’s a really fun team. They have their team mascot and their team song, and they’re really into donuts, so we ordered everyone donuts and we had a donut toast. I found it really rewarding. I got really good feedback from the team too, just really, really grateful that we were able to take the time to celebrate and mark this moment. Also, I think Priya Parker says this too, “Those moments of transition are very important for anyone who’s going through them, so you need to make sure you’re taking time to mark those.”

Douglas Ferguson:

The transitions can be just as important as the destination and your starting point.

JJ Rogers:

Yeah.

Douglas Ferguson:

I wanted to just echo back something you were talking about with the end user being that focal point and those stories that come from the user. Sometimes those stories can be positive and we can celebrate the things that we accomplished and the good work we did for the end user. Also, it seems that as a group that’s focused on improving user experience and adding new user experiences that help them address their needs, these user stories around needs and what they’re going to and bubbling up that voice of customer and putting them at the center of our engagements, by nature is going to be a strong source of commitment and connection because that’s the entire bedrock of what drew people into the profession to begin with.

If we’re here talking about a new feature or talking about analysis or doing some critique and that voice is left, that’s a real opportunity to bring in a unifying force, something that everyone values. Even for folks that aren’t in user experience, there’s probably an analog for their team. What’s the values that they share that drew them to the role, drew them to this work in the first place, and how can we bring that into our meetings to center ourselves?

JJ Rogers:

Yes, to create that kind of connection with the content. Yeah, and really use that in your why, I guess. Well, I’m really interested. I know Teresa Torres is coming to speak, and her book has been out for a few years now, but she does have a number of different activities to help bring the customer voice or keep it alive, keep it memorable to the team. Anyway, I’m excited that you guys have her on Facilitation Lab.

Douglas Ferguson:

Absolutely. A big fan of her work. If you have questions that you’re wanting me to ask her during the fireside chat, please pass them along.

JJ Rogers:

Okay, sure. Yeah.

Douglas Ferguson:

I wanted to talk about SAFe as a software startup or as a software company. You practice agile through the scaled agile framework, and one of the rituals with SAFe is PI planning. I know that comes up a lot with folks that are practicing SAFe as a moment where Mural, Miro, these digital tools show up as really important because it’s very facilitated. It’s a cross-functional dialogue where we’re exploring these things together. I’m curious how that shows up in your work, how you facilitate it. Are there any tips for folks that are starting this for the first time or even veterans of PI planning that might help them facilitate it better?

JJ Rogers:

Yes, we definitely use sticky notes to come up with the work, track dependencies. The ceremony is a really big deal. With Watermark specifically, we have a number of different products, and one of our goals is making sure that these products are working well together, like they’re integrated, they’re using a consistent design language. The dependencies that come up can be quite a few. It’s really great for tracking when you have a lot of interdependent teams. I think another great aspect about it is assigning the business value, so you’re really looking at… You’re writing these higher level objectives for what you plan to accomplish over this next quarter. I think that is really fantastic because that kind of forces higher level leaders to think about the objectives from a value perspective, like what is the end user expecting to get out of this? What is in it for the client?

So it’s not just we’re going to build this feature, it’s really how are we trying to change their work life or improve their lives somehow? But yeah, your question around process and facilitating SAFe, from the design side of it, we do a lot of the preparation work to get ready for this big ceremony. So making sure our engineering teams have groomed a number of the features that we’re going to build ahead of time. We’re definitely working earlier to ensure that the teams can have a successful, safe planning ceremony.

Douglas Ferguson:

That makes sense. I think it’s an important aspect of facilitation is that pre-planning and preparation, making sure that we’re well-crafted in our approach so that when we do get together, things are as effective as possible.

JJ Rogers:

It’s been really valuable in terms of having a kind of quarterly deadline to shoot towards. I think SAFe, they throw out some number. They want, I think, it’s like 75% of the work that’s going to go into that PI to be quote unquote solid, like somewhat figured out. I don’t know where they got this number from. It does give us something to shoot for because we want to make sure that we have done our job on the design team to have we prototyped a number of items, have we tested these? Certainly the stuff that’s going to go in earlier in the iterations, I should say, because they don’t use the word sprint, are going to be mostly baked, mostly crafted and ready to go. The things later on, those are the things that are going to be a little squishy still that we have time to work through. It really helps us sort of evaluate our design backlog and making sure we’re working just enough ahead, not too far ahead, and also not too close to the actual development timeline.

Douglas Ferguson:

I’ve always found design orgs… That’s a big question typically, is how far ahead should we be operating? It sounds like that process is helping you dial in that cadence.

JJ Rogers:

Yeah, definitely. It’s definitely been fantastic and really, I think, forces the company to get organized because we’re going to have this ceremony.

Douglas Ferguson:

Before we wrap up, I’m really curious to hear a little bit more about the mentor program and how that came about and the good work you’ve been doing there.

JJ Rogers:

Sure. I was Director of Mentorship and Career Development at UXPA, so that’s the User Experience Professionals Association, the Austin chapter, for a few years there. One of my goals was to create, and this is related, having come off of teaching general assembly, there’s a number of junior designers looking for roles and not that many roles, so we wanted to set up kind of another pathway or avenue for them to just learn about the industry and hopefully make more contacts, help them get jobs. It wasn’t designed only for junior designers. We definitely mentored anybody no matter where they were on their career journey, and tried to find somebody a little more senior so that they could get some advice, but by and large, it was heavily skewed towards that junior population. We created a mentor matching service, just put out the word on LinkedIn targeting specific, I would say, design influencers in the community.

I think we had 60, close to 70 mentors sign up that first round.

Douglas Ferguson:

Oh, wow.

JJ Rogers:

It was pretty high because we really hadn’t had anything like that formalized in Austin before. This is even before ADP List, which is a national mentorship program. This was before that was developed. So there was definitely an appetite for it. Then we had a ton of mentees sign up too. Some of our mentors mentored multiple designers. We just did kind of a manual matching spreadsheet. Everything was very manual, but we tried to target specific, if they had similar career goals, if they… Because it was actually in person, we even matched them depending on where they lived in Austin, if they lived north of the river, south of the river, east, whatever their kind of preferences were to meet. Anyway, there was a lot of thought that went into it that created a lot of work for our team actually doing the matching.

And then we just connected them via email. We didn’t have a whole lot of check-ins initially. It was just kind of, here’s maybe some advice on how you can be a good mentor, just to see how it went, see how it experimented. The pandemic happened during it, so we really had to transition a little bit. I mean, not a lot because everyone was just easily transitioned to Zoom it seemed like. But going forward, we were able to grow the program. We tried not to grow it too much beyond Austin because we were still the Austin chapter, but we could include some more rural communities outside of Austin since everyone was meeting remotely. It was really rewarding. I think it was something that the community definitely… We identified a need. We hit on something and tried to fill that gap.

Douglas Ferguson:

Wow. Super cool. Is the program still going?

JJ Rogers:

The program is still going. I’m no longer the director, but yeah, UXPA is doing mentorship, so if anyone is interested, we’ll just look up UXPA Austin and we’ll see when they run it. It is something that they do run, there’s a start date and an end date. It’s not ongoing, forever. We do a kickoff. I think we say you’re going to meet with your mentor at a minimum once a month during the program. Then at the end of the program we do something where we all come together and talk a little bit about what we learned and try and improve the program. It was really great.

Douglas Ferguson:

Amazing. We are running out of time here, so I wanted to end by giving you an to reflect a bit on where you think things are going. How do you plan to lean into facilitation in the next year or two or five, whatever vision you have as far as how facilitation might adapt in your role in your work?

JJ Rogers:

Well, I recently read a definition for… So in design we often use the phrase, we’re trying to delight the user. We want to add delight, want it to be a delightful experience. Well, what does that mean? Delight is actually a combination of multiple emotions. It is joy coupled with surprise. It’s not just standard joy, it’s something kind of surprises. You weren’t expecting something, and that really delights the person. I’ve really been thinking about how I can bring in, I think this goes back to what we were talking about, variety and novelty, but how we can bring in more of that delight with very, very small tweaks to our everyday rituals at my company.

In doing so, I think it’s more attainable for, we were talking about bringing in other members of the team to facilitate. It’s an easier ask to just kind of tweak something slightly than to completely redo and redesign a regular ritual or meeting that you have. Really encouraging the team to just tweak something small, and in myself too, that’ll add delight so that no two sessions are the same. No two days are the same. Why should the sessions be exactly the same? Mark those fleeting moments of time with something a little unique.

Douglas Ferguson:

I love this, and I think what a perfect way to end the show. Maybe everyone can take up this challenge, to dial up the delight. I would have to say it’s been delightful chatting with you today, JJ, and look forward to talking to you again sometime soon.

JJ Rogers:

Thank you, Douglas. It’s been a pleasure. Yes, anytime.

Douglas Ferguson:

Thanks for joining me for another episode of the Facilitation Lab Podcast. If you enjoyed the episode, please leave us a review and be sure to subscribe and receive updates when new episodes are released. We love listener tales and invite you to share your facilitation stories. Send them to us on LinkedIn or via email. If you want to know more, head over to our blog where I post weekly articles and resources about facilitation, team dynamics and collaboration. Voltagecontrol.com.

The post The Impact of Delightful Facilitation appeared first on Voltage Control.

“I am a poor participant when I am poorly led, but when I’m well led through a process, I’m really willing to play along.”- Rebecca Sutherns

In this podcast episode of the Facilitation Lab, host Douglas Ferguson talks with Dr. Rebecca Sutherns about her journey in facilitation and the nuances of group work. Dr. Sutherns, with 27 years of experience and authorship of three books, including “Elastic Stretch Without Snapping or Snapping Back,” shares her early discomfort with group work and how it influenced her interest in facilitation. She discusses the importance of well-structured and skillfully facilitated group processes and the potential of collaborative activities. The conversation touches on the challenges of group dynamics at various stages of life and the benefits of providing structure to group interactions to enhance efficiency and reduce awkwardness.

Show Highlights

[00:04:00] The importance of well-structured group work
[00:09:30] Creating containers for creativity
[00:15:40] Navigating through challenging group decisions
[00:16:39] Embracing the messiness of the process
[00:22:41] Value of Silence
[00:35:00] Authenticity in Facilitation
[00:43:25] Facilitators’ role in creating safe spaces

Links | Resources

Rebecca on Linkedin
Rebecca on Twitter
Rebecca on YouTube
Rebecca on Instagram

About the Guest

Dr. Rebecca Sutherns is an insightful and high energy collaborative strategist and world class facilitator who has served as a trusted advisor to hundreds of mission-driven organizations, across Canada and internationally. Rebecca brings intellect, enthusiasm and varied experience in strategy development and adaptability when speaking, writing and mentoring. She is a skilled communicator, with a particular gift for helping leaders make wiser decisions faster. Rebecca is a Certified Professional Facilitator and is the Regional Director for North America on the Board of Directors of the International Association of Facilitators. She is a frequent keynote speaker and author of the books Nimble: Off Script but Still On Track. A coaching guide for responsive facilitation, Sightline: Strategic plans that gather momentum not dust, and ELASTIC: Stretch without snapping or snapping back. Learn more at rebeccasutherns.com.

About Voltage Control

Voltage Control is a facilitation academy that develops leaders through certifications, workshops, and organizational coaching focused on facilitation mastery, innovation, and play. Today’s leaders are confronted with unprecedented uncertainty and complex change. Navigating this uncertainty requires a systemic facilitative approach to gain clarity and chart pathways forward. We prepare today’s leaders for now and what’s next.

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Voltage Control on the Web
Contact Voltage Control

Transcript

Douglas Ferguson:

Hi, I’m Douglas Ferguson. Welcome to the Facilitation Lab podcast where I speak with Voltage Control certification alumni and other facilitation experts about the remarkable impact they’re making.

We embrace a method agnostic approach so you can enjoy a wide range of topics and perspectives as we examine all the nuances of enabling meaningful group experiences. This series is dedicated to helping you navigate the realities of facilitating collaboration, ensuring every session you lead becomes truly transformative.

Thanks so much for listening. If you’d like to join us for a live session sometime, you can join our Facilitation Lab community. It’s an ideal space to apply what you learn in the podcast in real time with peers. Sign up today at voltagecontrol.com/facilitation-lab. If you’d like to learn more about our twelve-week facilitation certification program, you can read about it at voltagecontrol.com.

Today, I’m with Dr. Rebecca Sutherns from Sage Solutions. Rebecca has been facilitating for twenty-seven years and is the author of three books. Most recently, she published Elastic: Stretch Without Snapping or Snapping Back. Welcome to the show, Rebecca.

Dr. Rebecca Sutherns:

Thanks, Douglas.

Douglas Ferguson:

It’s great to have you. I’ve been looking forward to chatting. In fact, we got to chat just yesterday because we’re planning a little workshop for the Never Done Before Festival.

Dr. Rebecca Sutherns:

Which we have never done before, fittingly. I am looking forward to that too. It’ll be fun.

Douglas Ferguson:

Absolutely. As I always do in the podcast, I would love to hear a little bit about how you got your start. You’ve been facilitating for quite a while. What was that first moment when you remember just getting turned on to this idea of facilitation? Even if you didn’t have the word for it. Sometimes people go all the way back to kindergarten. What was it for you? What was that moment?

Dr. Rebecca Sutherns:

It makes me think of almost three different things, and I’ll be super quick with three, but one of them is when I was younger in that I was often the person in school, say, that didn’t, ironically, that really didn’t like group work because I really found it inefficient. I didn’t want to, I don’t know, hug the microphone in a sense, but I was often the one that was moving quicker than some other people in terms of my ability to either grasp concepts or wanting to, I don’t know, whatever the nicer term for being bossy was. That was probably me that I got on my report cards all the time. I was a bit awkward when it came to group work because it didn’t really suit me very well at that time, probably still doesn’t. I wonder if part of my interest in this was that I really didn’t like being in the equivalent. Whatever the elementary school equivalent of bad meetings is, that was my school experience.

Then later, in my early part of my career, I was involved with in international development, and so had an opportunity to do a lot of facilitating and hosting of various kinds of events. Was asked, again, as you said, didn’t have the words for it, but was asked to do some internal team leadership and facilitate some processes inside the organization that were outside of my normal job description because somebody there had seen skill in me in that way, and I hadn’t really thought of that being a separate skill set.

Then fast-forward later to when I started my consulting business and was taking on whatever work I could get, anybody that phoned me. If it sounded interesting and I could find childcare, I would take it. But then when I looked in retrospect at those early years of that and went, what is it that I love about the parts of this that I really loved and what is it that people are calling me for specifically, it was my own clients saying, “Hey, this seems to be a bit of a superpower of yours.”

I think over the course of multiple chapters of my life, this particular skill set of managing group process and helping a group of people structure their conversation to get to a set of objectives has become something that others have identified in me.

Douglas Ferguson:

That point around the early days of not loving the group work, I can totally relate to that. I hadn’t really thought about it in that term or from that perspective, but it reminds me of how Liberating Structures talks about how ineffective open discussion, or even, to use their term, the goat rodeo can be.

Dr. Rebecca Sutherns:

It’s true. Especially, I mean, give it to a group of kids or teenagers and we don’t know what to do. You’re playing with all of your, just like adults are, you’re negotiating your social world too at the same time. You’re paying attention to, I don’t know, reputation management, impression management. You care a lot what other people think of you. You’re behaving weirdly anyway trying to manage all of that, and then trying to get this task done under time deadlines or whatever it might be at a stage where I cared about the marks I was getting and was trying to figure out if we were all getting the same mark or if I was going to end up doing all the work. Having now parented four of my own kids through that same journey and they have that same affliction I had, it’s really hard to do a good job in groups.

I thought of myself for a long time as a really bad participant. The irony of that expertise is not lost on me. But I realized lately that I am a poor participant when I am poorly led, but when I’m well led through a process, I’m really willing to play along. For me, that really has to do with being skillfully facilitated and being given activities to do that make sense and that matter and are purposeful and sequenced well and paced well and all that stuff. If that’s my experience, I am all about it and quite okay with group work, and in fact, am now a huge proponent of collaborative activity even in areas where we think it might be more traditionally a solo activity.

For example, when I was writing Elastic that you mentioned a few minutes ago, I write in there about imagination and I write about curiosity, and those are typically things we think of as happening in individual people’s heads. My suggestion is that they’re even more powerful when we do them collectively. I’m a fan of group work now, but only group work that is well-structured and facilitated, which I guess is also an occupational hazard.

Douglas Ferguson:

Well, it’s so fascinating to think about how often the group work in elementary school, high school, even college, it’s like, oh, here’s your group, but there’s never any rules of engagement. No one’s been taught how to lead the groups, and there’s no roles being assigned. Just think about how much it could influence the way that folks collaborate and work together if we just started assigning some of these roles and best practices, if you will. I’m loathed to even say best practices, but at least distilling some essence of how to do better collaborative group work versus just saying, “Okay, here’s five people, go work on this project.”

Dr. Rebecca Sutherns:

Exactly. I notice it even now when, I don’t know, perhaps put people in breakout rooms in a Zoom meeting, I’m trying to get in the habit of giving them a little bit of structure that will just speed things up and take out some of the awkwardness. It could be something as basic as, “Each of you in your group of three is going to share blah, blah, blah. Start with the person whose first name is closest to the alphabet,” or some little thing that helps us avoid that awkwardness at the beginning going, “So, do you want to start? Do you want to start?” It’s no different than middle school. We’re still the same awkward social creatures that we are when we’re younger. I think if the person structuring the experience can provide just a bit of guidance, it just makes it less awkward for everybody, in addition to being more efficient.

Douglas Ferguson:

Well, we’re perhaps more awkward now because now we’ve got these weird rules layered on top that’s like, oh, now who has certain power and who has this rank and where are the people? You had to go through this whole protocol to even understand it, and it’s not explicit. Folks are trying to feel those things out. To your point, if you just say, “Who most recently ate green vegetables,” that’s much easier to figure out.

Dr. Rebecca Sutherns:

Absolutely. Those unwritten rules exist in school and they exist as adults. Peer pressure is not limited to when we’re 13. I think just being given some edges, and I think of it as creating containers for people. If we know that our creativity is enhanced when we have limitations on it and parameters and edges to it. I love the story of how kids in a playground will, if they’re in a big playground with no fences, they will play really close to the school when they’re let out outside. But if you give them a fenced area to play in, they will play all through that whole area because they understand where the limitations are and they feel safer there.

I think I see that in adult interactive activities as well, where if we know the edges of the assignment or the roles are clear, we are much more likely to be exploratory and experimental and probably more creative and interesting and take few more risks than we would. Because we really play it safe when there’s not clarity, we get a bit more cautious. If we want people to be a bit more edgy, we need to give edges to them.

Douglas Ferguson:

I always find that there’s a lot of interesting things to learn at the edges. When you go to those edges, why do those edges exist? Who created this edge? Is this a physical phenomenon or is it manmade? Because there’s so much to learn there.

Dr. Rebecca Sutherns:

That’s such an interesting, I don’t know if it’s a tension, but it’s something that I’m learning into in facilitation where I’m doing people a favor by providing a container, but I also am really, most of the time, open to them testing the edges of that container and trying to expand it and question it and say, “Actually, I don’t want to be in this container. I don’t want to be in any container.”

I want people, on the one hand, conceptually or philosophically I say I want that. Yet as a facilitator, I know there are times when I want to exert too much control over the nature of the conversation that I want to have, partly because I see how it fits into the structure of an overall experience that I’m trying to create. That not being too much of a control freak in it, but also wanting to provide the structure that I’m being asked to provide is always a challenge.

One of the earlier books I wrote is called Nimble, and it’s really about if you tend to be someone who likes to highly orchestrate things and develop really detailed agendas and do all your research ahead of time, you probably need to hold that script loosely and loosen your grip on your plan because chances are you’ve really over planned and you’ve grown to love your design so much that nobody else in the room feels like it’s theirs or that they have any opportunity to influence it.

But it’s also true on the other side. If you’ve got a really improvisational, spontaneous personality, you may need to provide more of a roadmap or an agenda to your client, or whatever it might be, than you feel that you need. Because if you ask people of the opposite preference, if they are loving your style of your improvisation or your heavy detailed planning, if they’re not somebody like that, they’re hating it actually. Your happy place is not everybody’s happy place. I feel like that creating those edges, but also making them a bit stretchy is a really magical sweet spot for really skilled facilitators.

Douglas Ferguson:

It’s also important to think about the participants, not just the sponsor. You mentioned the agenda and the design, and do they feel they’re getting enough structure or explanation around the plan. Sometimes it’s literally just understanding that no matter what we’re doing, there may be folks in the room that maybe don’t enjoy the decisive part of the session because they really love the more exploratory parts of the session. That’s fine. It doesn’t make them a bad person, it doesn’t make you a bad facilitator, but coming to the realization that that’s okay being comfortable with it, I think that’s a part of maturing as a facilitator. I see a lot of new facilitators really struggle with that.

Dr. Rebecca Sutherns:

I noticed that too. I think that if I can do the quick eye test vertically down my agenda, if I have, say, I have a one-day workshop or something and I’m looking at the plan that I’ve written out, even if I’ve written it out literally on the back of an envelope or something, if there’s no variety in it, not only does it seem like it’ll be boring, but it also risks losing a big chunk of the room for too much of the time.

I do find myself saying out loud to people, and I did, in fact, just a couple of days ago in talking to people in a session I was running, I said, “Look, we’re going to do four different activities here. There’s a good possibility there’s going to be one of them you’re not going to love, and probably the other three will be fine. It’ll be a mix as to which one is the favorite or least favorite in the room, but hang in there long enough to understand that not every part of this next experience is going to be amazing for all of us. But that by providing some amount of diversity in that experience, I’m hoping I will hit everybody at some point with something they really love.”

That’s a trade-off. I feel like facilitators are always making trade-offs in their head and guessing if they’re making it in ways that your participants would make in your place.

Douglas Ferguson:

Now, the listeners may have keyed in on this, but I really want to underscore a really critical part of what you just described is when you’re making it okay for folks to feel that they don’t enjoy one piece. You already sowed that seed, and so when they feel it, they say they’ll think for themselves like, oh, she knew this would happen. It’s not like she’s making me suffer through this. It’s just a fact of life. Now, it’s just something that we’re moving through together. I think that changes things quite a bit psychologically for the team or for the group.

Dr. Rebecca Sutherns:

Yeah, I do too. I think it can happen to the level of preference. I don’t like this kind of activity, but I like this other kind. I think it can also, in a related way, happen in terms of the nature of a process sometimes. If I’m doing strategic planning with a group over a period of time, I will often say to them, “Hey, we’re at that trudge through it stage that this is often the place where a group can get frustrated or get stuck or progress feels like it slows. That doesn’t mean we’re doing it incorrectly or that we’re way off track, it just might be that this particular stage of the process is hard slogging a lot of the time.” That’s another way to normalize it for people. Because I can’t always make it easy for them, and it’s not even desirable to do so all the time because I find that group decisions that are hard won are often the ones that have the most traction later.

We think that that’s part of why diverse teams are stronger teams. If we think of the work that was involved at Google with Project Aristotle a few years back, for example, they found some of the things that make teams function best. High diversity is one of them. They took a while to figure out why. I think that part of it, and part of the evidence that’s coming out, is that diverse teams can’t just make assumptions about what everybody thinks. I mean, people are thinking very different things. If you can come to some measure of agreement or consensus in that space, you’ve worked for it.

That’s not a terrible thing. It’s as much as facilitation means making things easier, it may not always be that. It might be I’ve created a clear container for this conversation to happen, but the conversation itself might be tricky. I think part of the learning process for me has been sorting out when that’s really okay and when to help a group, I don’t know, find more solid ground if they’re feeling like their feet are slipping a bit.

Douglas Ferguson:

I love this idea of this thing is hard and helping people understand that, hey, it’s hard, it’s messy. There’s no right way to do this. If you’re doing it, you’re doing it right. I think a lot of times people are worried about are they doing it wrong. Are we messing this up? Are we going to fail at this? The fear of failure is deeply rooted. It’s really traumatizing and scary to a lot of people. Just allowing people to realize that, no, this is messy. It’s going to feel clunky. It’s sideways, it’s totally fine, but just the fact that we’re here going through the mess together means we’re doing it right.

Dr. Rebecca Sutherns:

I love that. I find sometimes that if I can find a metaphor that people can relate to, it helps them. The one that I find myself frequently drawing on is the idea that when you’re cleaning out a closet, for example, you pull all the crap out of your closet and put it on your bed. Then, your doorbell rings and then it’s time to make dinner, and then you got to walk the dog, and then you realize it’s bedtime and you go to bed and you’re like, I should have put all this stuff back or I forgot to or whatever. It would’ve been better to just keep it messy inside the closet with the door closed than to put it all out here on the bed, and now I can’t even go to bed and I still haven’t cleaned up my closet.

In that moment, it’s a mess. It would’ve been better not to start. I think partway through a conversation or a process, whatever it is, it’s messy. If I know, for example, I’m involved in a multi-day, multi-touch point kind of process, I might say to people, “Look, we’re right at that place where all the mess of our clutter is literally out on our bed and we have to go to bed and we have to leave it and find a way to step over it and shove it onto the floor and whatever, because it’s not going to be all finished with nice, neat new labels and containers and a shiny bow on it today. But by the end of the process, next week, next month, whatever, I’m hoping that this newly cleaned out closet will look fabulous, but right now we’re right in the messy part.”

Then when that happens to them, we can go, “Oh yeah.” I will often have the participants feed that back to me, “Oh yeah, this is when all our junk’s on the bed.” It’s like, “Yeah, that’s exactly where we are.” I do find sometimes giving people a bit of a visual image is also helpful.

Douglas Ferguson:

100%. I love that. That’s super cool. It just conjures up that experience perfectly. This is making me think about something that we spoke about in the pre-show chat, and that was your desire to have more spaciousness, or this moment you’re examining more spaciousness.

Dr. Rebecca Sutherns:

I am. I am someone who has a word that guides my practice for the year, and I’m not super disciplined about it, but this year my word that I’ve been thinking about and seeing everywhere is spaciousness. Not just space, but literally spaciousness and what that’s like.

It came for me from not having a lot of it in my life for at certain seasons, and then finding myself now having more of it in certain parts of my life. We’ve got four kids that have now moved out and gone away to their lives, and my house is much more both physically spacious, and my calendar is much more spacious than it used to be in some ways. Yet my work calendar, less so.

I think it came out of that personal experience, but where it has me thinking in my facilitation work now is, particularly as we navigate whatever this stage of our broad cultural moment is, how much spaciousness people in groups crave in their work and how to gauge that pretty quickly. Because I’m often someone who comes in from the outside to design and run processes with a team that I have not worked with before, and trying to get a sense from them what they most need.

Because my experience is that if we do things digitally, say on Zoom, we can be really productive with that. It’s a very efficient, productive space if well-facilitated, but we don’t … There’s not a lot of informal spontaneous, organic interaction there. In-person gatherings tend to have those hallway conversations, chats at the buffet line, just the between the cracks conversations that Zoom isn’t good for.

Yet, if people are looking for something efficient, if they’re looking for something where they don’t need childcare, that they don’t have to sit in traffic, there’s something really appealing about the efficiency of a digital experience. I feel like if we’re going to ask people to come in-person to anything, we’d better make it worth it. It has to be worth the drive. It has to be worth, whatever, the childcare expense or the logistics that it took to get there.

Here we are in this, I don’t know, maybe I hope a beautiful venue together as opposed to some generic airport hotel meeting room or something, and we’re creating this moment together that is actually worth the hassle that it took to get there. If so, part of what makes that beautiful is often having some breathing space in it.

There’s this tension in me of, okay, I’ve been brought in here to help this group get somewhere, get something done, meet some objectives. But maybe one of the objectives that I need to make more explicit in my own practice is that they have a relationship building objective or a relational currency building objective that I need to honor, even though my personal need for a relationship with them is temporary or low, theirs might be really high. Sometimes that requires more informal unscripted time.

I got talking with a colleague. I was actually, speaking of beautiful venues, I was actually two weeks ago in Fiji for work, which has never happened to me before, so I’m almost embarrassed to say that out loud. But I was talking to someone, a colleague from Australia who gets paid an awful lot of money for what she does and she does it beautifully. One of the things that she does is she might ask a group a question and send them off to reflect on that with their journal and pen and whatever for an hour and gives them lots of time to sink into that question and reflect.

I was saying to her that I think, in my head, I might have this inner critic that is creating a bit of monkey brain for me going, “Hang on, they’re paying you a lot of money. You can’t just send them off to do their own thing for an hour of a four-hour experience. That’s not delivering value.” She pushed back and she said, “Maybe that’s exactly the value they need. You are getting paid for value, not by the word that you speak. Keeping your mouth shut for an hour and letting them spend some time either together or in their own heads might be exactly the value they need. That is the magic of facilitation in that moment because they have not had an hour of quiet with their own thoughts for months, and you’re providing exactly the gift that they need in that moment. That is skillful facilitation.”

I am living with that idea and realizing how sometimes what I have in my head and what the group actually needs isn’t only about achieve the objective. Sometimes the objective is to catch your breath, and is there something that I can be doing to adjust the pace and what I would consider the density of my agendas to match what that group needs and still be able to feel that I am delivering high value to a client to whom I’m accountable?

Douglas Ferguson:

Well, there’s a lot surfacing for me here. One is this idea of explicit needs so that this is the productivity, this is the outcome they’re able to articulate. Sometimes, they actually tell you connection. I just got back from DC where we were working with a group and collaboration and connection. They hadn’t met in-person in five years because they were overdue, and then the pandemic hit, and so they knew connection was a big part of it. But what are the implicit needs that haven’t been communicated that if we as practitioners can surface and understand and attune to and provide, then we’re going beyond expectations? Talking about delivering value. I mean, that’s the value that will create awe and wonder.

Dr. Rebecca Sutherns:

I love that. It’s true. When it’s a group that we don’t necessarily know well yet, we have to find ways to be able to attune to that quickly. Because I would love it if a client says to me after the fact, “You gave us what we knew we needed and you gave us what we didn’t know we need.” I think of that as known, spoken problems and also unknown, unspoken problems. Maybe not problems, but just needs that they have in that moment.

The faster that I’m able to tune into that, and also the more adaptable I’m able to be in the experience I’m creating for a group to respond to what I’m picking up on, the better. But it’s a bit risky because it’s quite possible for us to read that incorrectly and/or to facilitate out of our own preferred style. Or to, not to put to fine a point on it, but to basically believe the group when they say what they need, even if we are then getting a sense that what they need is something different. It’s one thing to add to the list of objectives. It’s quite another thing to actually, in a sense, cross out one and replace it with one we think is better. That’s harder. Where the group says they need one thing, and in fact, I might find that I think they need something actually quite different, not additional, but opposite to what they said.

I had that happen last week where I had a group where it was quite divided and they said, “We don’t need this time together on this thing. We need to do this other thing.” Part of the group was saying, “No, we have …” Like you said, our group was the same. They had not been together in four years, and the group had changed in the meantime. Some of them had actually never met. I think we are in such a treadmill of productive, efficient, short meetings where you just click a button and join, and click a button and leave, that I think that some of the group had actually forgotten how important those relational ties are, and that those relational ties sometimes can’t be rushed.

I am someone who thinks that we can build connection digitally. I’m not someone who would say, “Oh, it was on Zoom and therefore we haven’t got any connection.” I run courses on how to build connections digitally, I know you can. But we build them differently and at a different pace in-person. I sometimes need to push back on what the client is saying for in-person designs to say, “I think we need to remove a couple things because the group is going to need some time.” Whether that’s something as basic as make the lunch break a bit longer, or I was a participant in a course last week where we started at 10:00 and ended at 4:00, and starting at 10:00 felt ridiculous to me from a facilitator point of view. I was like, oh, you’ve missed the first whatever hour and a half of good content you could have been involved in.

But as a participant, it was amazing. I loved it because I could start my day with some measure of sanity. I could exercise before work, and I could get a few things done before showing up for the thing. The trainer, he would show up at 9:00, so he said, I’m going to be here from 9:00 to 10:00 if you want to come have a coffee together, happy to do that. He just started it with a really relaxed, sane pace. We were able to enter into the space and probably got more done on the efficiency scale in that shorter time period than we would’ve if we had extended it out.

I’ve come home from that experience thinking about redesigning and changing my start times on things and just doing things differently to honor the breathing room that I think people really appreciate.

Douglas Ferguson:

You’re getting hip to my game. I love the 10:00 to 5:00 workshop. It’s an amazing schedule. To your point, you can hit the gym, people can check their emails and get that stuff out of the way. Especially if it’s a multi day workshop, because it’s whole idea of leaving that stuff behind and not bringing phones and distractions into the workshop. It’s much easier for people to do that if they can knock that stuff out in the morning. To your point, you get so much more undivided attention if we concentrate that stuff in there.

Dr. Rebecca Sutherns:

I love that.

Douglas Ferguson:

There’s something else I wanted to hit on. That was, you mentioned what are people asking for versus what they need. It’s the classic product conundrum. Product managers are always on the search to understand users, but then to really look beyond what they’re asking for and going, “What’s the real underlying thing, the real need here?” I think facilitation has this extra nuance, which I guess in the product world it exists as well, but this idea of what are they ready for?

Oftentimes, I’ve been in situations where I’ve diagnosed something with a client and I know that this is what needs to happen, but they’re three steps before that. I have to be very careful about pushing them too far into a territory they’re not quite ready to go into. How do I nudge them because, otherwise, they could easily reject it like an antibody.

A lot of facilitators get rather dogmatic about, “No, this is how teams need to operate.” They go in and they push it too far, and then it does a disservice because the teams reject it because not, for whatever reason, culturally or they’re being conditioned and they’re not … We got to move them along at a pace where they’re comfortable with. With twenty-seven years of experience, I know you have some thoughts on this.

Dr. Rebecca Sutherns:

Oh, I do. I’ve got two. I love this idea of readiness. I hadn’t framed it that way before because I was thinking about the difference between need and demand in the product world and probably also in the group dynamic world. Where what a group might need or a person might need might not match what they’re asking for in the front-end, but it also might not match what they’re, as you said, ready for at the other end. I often, in my mentoring practice, I do a lot of mentoring with business leaders. Part of it is, especially solopreneurs or entrepreneurs, they’re like, “But people need this thing that I do or that I sell.”

“It’s like they might need it, but they might not be aware that they need it such that if there is no demand for it, you will not sell anything. You might be right that they need it. I’m not arguing with you whether they do or they don’t, but what I’m saying is they’re not asking for it. The demand isn’t there even if the need is there.” I really love this addition of the idea of readiness and sussing that out because if people aren’t ready to buy something or aren’t ready to enter into an experience or to face something, there’s not much point in taking them there.

If I can pick up on that, my second piece of this has to do more with the metaphor that my book Elastic is about, and that is that if you stretch, I think it’s really important that all of us be stretched a bit as facilitators and as participants. If you think of an elastic band that’s just sitting on your desk, it’s sitting on your desk, it is not doing anything. It’s not fulfilling the purpose for which it’s intended. It’s super comfortable sitting there, presumably, but it is completely useless. If you leave it there long enough and you go to stretch it, it will not stretch. It gets brittle and it’ll break. We aren’t very useful if we’re not stretching at all.

But if we’re stretching either too far, too fast, and obviously then snapping, or if we’re stretching slowly maybe, but staying stretched for too long, like stretchy pants during COVID or an old bathing suit or something, you don’t go back to the shape that you were before. Then you are also useless because you’re no longer fit for purpose either. I’m constantly playing with that metaphor as a facilitator because I want to invite my groups and myself to stretch appropriately, but not too much.

For example, I had one group I always think about on this where they had invited me to facilitate what they were calling a retreat. Well, I get to the retreat and the gentlemen are all in jackets and dress shirts, and the retreat meant that they’re not wearing a tie or that they had undone the top button of their shirt. Meanwhile, I’m picturing retreat being much more casual than this. Their definition of this was different than mine. I realized that some of the activities I’d planned that were more, I don’t know, camp game-like than I normally do, but I was thinking this was a retreat, like an offsite fun day. This was not the least but fun. It was in a very stodgy, paneled meeting room. It was not in a casual environment. Well, that was the morning of my day.

In the afternoon, I went to another corporate retreat and the client had given me an address and I show up, turns out it’s in the woods in this yoga yurt that is completely way more casual than I thought. What I had planned was completely inappropriate because they did not even want, I mean, there was no tech there, but there wasn’t even a flip chart or a marker to be seen. It was just sitting around a campfire in the woods.

It helped me. I was newer in my career and obviously had not asked enough questions in my prep for that day, but it’s become the symbol for me of what can I stretch a group to do? Because, in fact, I think my morning group that day, in their sport coats and paneled meeting room, wanted the forest. They wanted the fire pit. They wanted that experience. They were feeling pretty stifled in this very stuffy environment, but that was already a little bit of a stretch for them. Whereas the other group probably could have used a bit more structure in their day to get more out of it.

That’s become the experiential benchmark for me of am I willing to stretch a group. Because there’s certain activities as a facilitator, I just can’t pull off. Some facilitators can do crazy stuff that I would feel, I’d probably either roll my eyes or just be embarrassed, and other facilitators could totally do it. Similarly, I might push a group in directions that some of my other colleagues might feel were, I don’t know, more than they would be comfortable. I feel like there’s something about matching my stretch with a group’s stretch and what their objectives are that is another part of the alchemy of this whole experience, and that’s part of what makes it fun, I think.

Douglas Ferguson:

I love that. I always tell people to really tune into what feels authentic when you’re exploring new tools and methods and looking through libraries. Don’t force yourself to do some thing just because you’ve heard design thinking is popular. If it doesn’t feel authentic, move on to the next thing. Because there’s something about what is deeply true about how you’re showing up. It’s the same thing as getting a gift and not liking it and trying to pretend like you it. It’s like you don’t want to be doing that with your methods when you’re facilitating.

Dr. Rebecca Sutherns:

No. It’s true. And yet, we’re also always playing that off against the discomfort of learning something new. It’s going to feel inauthentic maybe, or at least uncomfortable when it’s brand new. And yet, it might grow to fit us. I don’t know.

I remember somebody who said to me fairly early into the pandemic, they said something about, “Well, I just don’t do digital.” I went, “Well, happy retirement,” basically.

Douglas Ferguson:

Welcome to digital.

Dr. Rebecca Sutherns:

You don’t get to opt out. There’s something about figuring out what you can learn, and it’s like a new pair of shoes that feels super uncomfortable at first and then becomes your favorite pair. But then there’s other pairs where you’re like, oh, I’ll break them in. Then you wear them and wear them and they still feel terrible and you never wear them.

I don’t know if we know right at the front-end, but I think we have to be willing to live through some discomfort to see if it fits us. I think that edge is not one that I … I need to make sure that I’m still living in that because I think I can rely on … I’ve got enough comfy pairs of shoes in my closet right now that I don’t always need to stretch myself into new areas. I’ve been grateful for some circumstances over the last few years that have forced me to up my game in ways that I might not have otherwise.

Douglas Ferguson:

I love this idea of comfy shoes. I’m going to have to walk around with that for a little bit.

Dr. Rebecca Sutherns:

Me too. I hadn’t thought of it till right now.

Douglas Ferguson:

As we come to a close, I always like to end thinking about the future. Something you mentioned to me in the pre-show chat was this idea of feeling that the pulse was gone. You mentioned that during COVID there was a real clarity around everyone’s focused on formats, everyone’s adopting digital. Even as the pandemic was coming to a close and people were coming back more online, there was this talk of in-person/not in-person. You were relaying a sense of, I’m not sure where are the pulse is.

I’ll also add in. This is something I was thinking about as we were talking, I’m really layering this up.

Dr. Rebecca Sutherns:

All right.

Douglas Ferguson:

One thing we talked about when you were last in Austin was some of the amazing dinner conversations you’ve had with your kids and how inspiring those are just from a … Because you have this basically reverse mentor, these kids that are seeing the world from totally different vantage points. Now that you’re an empty-nester, that’s also a pulse that has left. What is this pulselessness that you’re feeling, and where might it evolve to?

Dr. Rebecca Sutherns:

Oh, I love this. This would be worth a lot longer conversation than what you have time for right now. I love the connection you just made because I hadn’t thought of those two things together. But it’s true that we rely on signals all the time, and maybe the signals we’re getting are a little faint right now, and we have to find other ways to tune into a different frequency or bring in more intel in other ways.

Because during COVID, we knew that meetings were digital and we knew that people were doing poorly. It sucks that we’re doing poorly, but we didn’t have to ask. I’m a big fan of avoiding being the oblivious facilitator. If I had said to people during the height of COVID, “How are you doing?” People are like, “What are you talking about? Of course, I’m not doing well. Nobody is.” But as we emerged from that, people’s experience is … The data would show where I live in Canada, we had a sixty-forty split for a long time in terms of wellbeing, whereas about 60% of people were feeling pretty good, ready to get back out there, thriving, excited, and about 40% were still really languishing. There wasn’t much in between. Both groups felt some shame about that.

The people that were thriving felt badly because they knew there were some people that weren’t and they didn’t want to admit how well they were doing because we’d had a couple of years of not doing well. It felt a bit like you were bragging. The 40% were like, “Hey, there’s people that are doing fine. Why am I not? Why is it taking me so long to pull out of this?” But we knew that there was this bifurcated experience in the room.

Now, it is much more variable. I see it in terms of wellbeing and how people are doing. I see it in terms of formats of meetings. I had an experience just two weeks ago where I showed up and it turned out it was a hybrid meeting. I didn’t know that. They hadn’t told me that, but a couple people had COVID and they phoned in. It’s like, oh, I haven’t had that happen in forever. I’m out of the habit of that. I knew how to handle that a while back. Now it’s like, oh, are we going back into that? So I’m constantly trying to read the room in a big way, cultural way, in a societal way, not just a read this immediate room.

I appreciate what you were saying about the link with my family, because when you’re sitting at a dinner table with one other person, it’s very different than when you’ve got the whole crew around and you’re hearing all kinds of stories and all kinds of examples and getting lots of perspectives. I mean, I’m a collaborator by profession. I say that the collective is protective. Getting multiple perspectives eliminates blind spots much more effectively than doing something out of your own head.

My strategy in this is I’m walking into spaces and with groups asking lots of questions and trying to show up with a lot of curiosity right now because my own experience individually is not enough, never is enough, but the experience of my participants is not at all homogeneous right at the moment. I see it in polarization conversations and dynamics that we’re seeing around the world. I’m seeing it in wellbeing and burnout. I’m seeing it in formats that people want. I’m seeing it even in what we were talking about before about some people wanting high efficiency, high productivity experiences and others wanting a bit more space. I think we need to show up with lots of curiosity into that space.

Douglas Ferguson:

The thing that popped into my head as I was listening, right when you said it’s getting more important to read the room, it just immediately popped into my head, it’s actually forcing us to read the system.

Dr. Rebecca Sutherns:

Right.

Douglas Ferguson:

To your point, it’s like someone’s now having to dial in, they’re not in the room. The thing that caused them to have to dial in was not in the room, but there’s all these moving parts. It even comes back to your early lesson around the folks that were in the stuffy conference room, but trying to cut loose, and the folks that they were out in the crazy yoga forest, what is the system that they’re in? Not only am I tuning into the room and the setting and the space that we’re going to be in for the day, but what’s the system surrounding them and how might that influence the things that might unfold in front of us?

Dr. Rebecca Sutherns:

Absolutely. I think as facilitators who, as someone who is committed to justice and equity and diversity and inclusion, I think those kinds of considerations become very important. Because what it took for people even to show up and to be in that room is very uneven and not equally distributed.

There’s, actually, there’s some really good pieces of work in there in Adam Grant’s new book. It’s called Hidden Potential, just came out a couple of weeks ago. I just finished it last night. I run a book club every month of a bunch of new titles for people, and this month I’m only doing that book because it’s got so much in it. I absolutely loved it. He talks about a NASA selection process that has evolved over time, but that somehow we need to look not just at people’s end of their story and the accomplishments, the heights they’ve reached, but how far did they travel to get to that point. Because people who have overcome a number of obstacles to get there are probably more impressive candidates, even if they haven’t reached as high a peak. Look at their starting point, more than just their end point.

I think about that even in the room, as you said, the systems that people are navigating even to show up and what kinds of designs we need to be thinking about as facilitators to make sure that a space is more safe, more inclusive, more participatory in ways that are true to the systems that people are living in. I think it’s a really important skill set for facilitators to develop. That’s probably a conversation for another day, but I think it’s really important.

Douglas Ferguson:

Amazing. Well, I’d love to end on a note like that. It’s like there’s more to talk about. It’s been a great pleasure. I would love to continue the conversation, but we are at our end. I want to just say thanks so much, Rebecca, and I look forward to our next conversation.

Dr. Rebecca Sutherns:

Me too, Douglas. Thanks for the opportunity.

Douglas Ferguson:

Thanks for joining me for another episode of the Facilitation Lab podcast. If you enjoyed the episode, please leave us a review and be sure to subscribe and receive updates when new episodes are released. We love listener tales and invite you to share your facilitation stories. Send them to us on LinkedIn or via email. If you want to know more, head over to our blog where I post weekly articles and resources about facilitation, team dynamics and collaboration at voltagecontrol.com.

The post Embrace Discomfort to Adapt to New Ways of Working appeared first on Voltage Control.

“We need facilitators to create that room. There are very few and the scientists who are quite enthusiastic as well as the decision leaders, what they know right now is PowerPoint one PowerPoint after another. And which is quite boring but they don’t know what to do, how different, what other ways can we do it, can we pass on this information? Any sector that you talk about within Africa, they will need that, they will need facilitators because of the growth trajectory that we are looking at and the change that we need to bring about.”- Eddie Jjemba

In this episode of the Facilitation Lab podcast, host Douglas Ferguson interviews Eddie Jjemba from the Red Cross Red Crescent Climate Center. Eddie discusses his work in making African cities resilient to climate change and his journey into environmental education. He shares his experiences in facilitation, including the importance of adapting to diverse cultures and contexts. Eddie also talks about the financial barriers to facilitation training in Africa and how the Red Cross is addressing this issue. The conversation also covers the use of games in facilitation, the process of designing meeting agendas, and the future of facilitation in the context of climate change.

Show Highlights

[00:10:28] The importance of facilitation in the African context

[00:15:09] The need for facilitators in addressing climate change impacts 

[00:21:05] The use of games in facilitation

[00:25:15] Understanding cultural diversity in facilitation

[00:35:18] Embracing Facilitation at the Mid-level Management 

[00:37:01] Qualities of Senior Leaders Ready for Facilitation

[00:38:46] The impact of facilitation on meetings and gatherings

Links | Resources

Eddie on Linkedin

Eddie on Twitter

Eddie on Voltage Control

About the Guest

Eddie brings over a decade of dedication to tackling climate-related challenges, with a primary focus on climate change adaptation and disaster risk management. In his role as a Climate Change Advisor, he has actively facilitated workshops and conferences, demonstrating his commitment to both urban and rural areas. His expertise lies in developing practical strategies through collaboration with a diverse group of stakeholders, including practitioners, academics, and representatives from both the private and government sectors.

Eddie’s skills are not just limited to strategy development; he also excels in facilitating learning and effectively communicating climate risk management to a wide array of audiences, ranging from specialists in the field to the general public. His specialties include Climate Change Adaptation, Disaster Risk Management, and effective Risk Communication, along with a deep understanding of both policy and practice in these critical areas. His work has consistently showcased his ability to translate complex climate issues into actionable strategies, making him a valuable asset in the field of climate resilience.

About Voltage Control

Voltage Control is a facilitation academy that develops leaders through certifications, workshops, and organizational coaching focused on facilitation mastery, innovation, and play. Today’s leaders are confronted with unprecedented uncertainty and complex change. Navigating this uncertainty requires a systemic facilitative approach to gain clarity and chart pathways forward. We prepare today’s leaders for now and what’s next.

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Voltage Control on the Web
Contact Voltage Control

Transcript

Douglas Ferguson:

Hi, I’m Douglas Ferguson. Welcome to the Facilitation Lab Podcast, where I speak with Voltage Control certification alumni and other facilitation experts about the remarkable impact they’re making. We embrace a method agnostic approach so you can enjoy a wide range of topics and perspectives as we examine all the nuances of enabling meaningful group experiences. This series is dedicated to helping you navigate the realities of facilitating collaboration, ensuring every session you lead becomes truly transformative. Thanks so much for listening. If you’d like to join us for a live session sometime, you can join our Facilitation Lab community. It’s an ideal space to apply what you learn in the podcast in real time with peers. Sign up today at voltagecontrol.com/facilitation-lab. And if you’d like to learn more about our 12-week facilitation certification program, you can read about it at voltagecontrol.com.

Today I’m with Eddie Jjemba at Red Cross Red Crescent Climate Center, where he offers advice to make cities in Africa resilient to climate change shocks and stresses. Welcome to show, Eddie.

Eddie Jjemba:

Thank you very much, Douglas. Very pleased to be here.

Douglas Ferguson:

That’s so great to have you. Well, as usual, let’s talk a little bit about how you got your start in this work. I know that you had early ambitions to be a medical doctor, and that formed some of your thinking and some of your choices in your journey, but I’d love to talk about that with you today.

Eddie Jjemba:

Yeah, well, having been raised in a family where it was very important or it was known that anyone who is bright or who is able to pass science should automatically sign up to be a medical doctor. It was quite prestigious to be one. I had a couple of uncles who had gone ahead of me, so they were medical doctors, peers who were aspiring to be, and as someone who was performing well in science, everyone expected me to be a medical doctor, and I myself actually wanted to be a medical doctor. Well, because of financial circumstances… Number one, I couldn’t have fought to pay for the medical course at the university, and the government sponsored me for an alternative course, which was conservation biology. Well, because it was also science, I loved it. I chose to move on with a conservation biology course.

In there, among the many things that we studied was environmental education. And that caught my attention and I started following it a little bit, I mean with hesitation, but also with interest. Yes. So that became a line that eventually would land me my first job in a local small organization. We’re about, what, seven people working for it and my role there was an environmental educator. Those were the initial steps into the world of facilitation.

Douglas Ferguson:

And what was it about childhood education that really attracted you?

Eddie Jjemba:

Okay, naturally, I love children. I do. Anywhere you find me, you’ll find children somehow come around me. I am also, or at least I’ve been called playful. I now admit I enjoy playing. And in the African culture, playfulness is reserved for children. So I think I often find myself playing with the children. So that’s exactly how I gravitated towards children. I loved children. Oh, I was told that my father actually used to love children, that he would have children all around him. Early in my early childhood I had that. So probably that too influenced my inclination to children.

Douglas Ferguson:

And how do you think that impacts your work today? This kind of playfulness, this kind interest in children, this kind affinity to think and behave in those ways?

Eddie Jjemba:

So I remember one day, okay, as an environment educator responsible for teaching children to love nature and conservation in general, one day in my local organization, we received an invitation to go for games for climate. My manager at the time, she basically frowned at the invitation. She was wondering who on earth does playfulness instead of doing serious business, anyway. That was the first time I think I got exposed to playfulness in a professional sense. Now, coming back here, I realized that actually my facilitation style edges around seriousness and playfulness and a little bit of comedy and storytelling. So the interaction with children and the love for playfulness, I have learned to bring it into a room, whether it’s a meeting, a smaller one, big conferences, and I find that people connect, actually, it’s my way of connecting with the audience before we get into this too much business of life with whatever topics that we are addressing.

Douglas Ferguson:

So I’m really curious, you talk about bringing into play and the comedy and connecting with the audience, is there a story that comes to mind of how that happens?

Eddie Jjemba:

Well, I’m trying to dig into my mind, what the immediate thing that comes is imagine myself in my work, I tend to move around the cities, especially in Africa. And one of the most memorable time that I have is when I was in Windhoek, in Namibia, in a huge conference hall in there with politicians. The mayor is present, the councilor is present there, technical people from disaster risk management. Because of the work we do, which is humanitarian work, we always want to bring along local people. So the common man and woman community members basically. And we’re thinking about the climate change strategy for the city of Windhoek. It’s not time for soliciting for votes, getting the mayor to talk with the local community leaders and just a local dweller of informal settlements as we call them.

It’s challenging, so I often start with some very light joke maybe, very carefully selected, which makes people loosen up and laugh a bit. So for example, we are here to talk about the changing climate, but is it really changing? Has anyone seen it changing or something related to an African proverb? So I find a way of finding touch points with my audience that is not entirely scientific or it’s not entirely, how do I say that? Yeah. But anyway, something light that makes people is continuous on the first change. They’re not thinking about their professionalism in the moment, but they are thinking about being human together in the room.

Douglas Ferguson:

I love that. And what are some African proverbs that come to mind? Because I’m sure listeners aren’t familiar with many of them. So is there one that you can share with us, the kinds of things that you’re using?

Eddie Jjemba:

Yeah, there’s one which says, if you want to carry a baby, don’t wait for them to get dirty or to get muddy. And in a way that one directly relates to my work, because for the changing climate, we need to take action before things get worse. So when I offer that, then I invite my audience to offer me some proverbs from their own context. I mean, although we are all Africa, but the countries can be completely different. Even within the country, there can be a lot of difference because we are different tribes, different culture setting and background. So I invite them to offer me more, and as they do that, they feel like this is a different kind of workshop altogether.

Douglas Ferguson:

Wow, that makes me really curious when you say that if you want to carry a baby, don’t wait for it to get muddy. In what ways do you think you may have waited for things to get muddy in your facilitation practice before you carried them?

Eddie Jjemba:

Okay, I love that question. First and foremost, I never ever thought that facilitation can be work. I never had that facilitation. There was a profession called facilitation until I met people from the Red Cross who had invited me for a workshop, which was about climate change and games or games for climate. And they told me that I was good at facilitation, and I asked, “What’s that?” By that time, I had already been working as an environmental educator for about three years, I think. So the term facilitation was not there. That means that for those three years I did things ad hoc without any orientation about the basics of facilitation, the techniques of facilitation, in which way I think that that’s clearly I waited. I waited to carry the baby, but I didn’t know the baby existed. So in a way, while I waited to carry the baby, I wasn’t aware of the waiting itself. And later on, actually, I started, then I joined Red Cross.

One of the reasons, they really liked my facilitation skills, and they exposed me to various facilitation styles and techniques, and I was like, “Wow, I never knew that work could be fun like this.” Anyway, and then exposed me also to applied improvisation, liberating structures, all these amazing resources. And over time I have also learned that facilitation is kind of a craft. You get this piece and this and put them together and you get a blend. So if I get applied improv and then I add some liberating structure, I create this amazing thing. In my culture, in the African context, there’s a meal we call Katogo. Basically, it’s a mixture of things. You throw tomatoes there, you can throw other vegetables, leafy vegetables, you can throw various sources of protein and carbs, and you cook all together. So that’s my new perception of facilitation. Add several things together, come up with a flavor that is so blended, but very rich in test. Yes. Anyway, yeah. Right now I’m here. I’m immersed in facilitation, I love facilitation.

I notice though that it’s still growing in the African context. I’m privileged to be part of the community of facilitators from IAF, the International Association of Facilitation. But we are few, even within the African group, we are few. Anyway, which means there’s a lot of room for growth, given that lots of things are emerging within the African context to provide solutions to the changing climate, to the challenges in health, to the tech that is blooming, everything. So I tend to feel like there is a need to groom facilitators, to equip facilitators in the developing world, and that’s my new passion on my new discovered calling.

Douglas Ferguson:

Tell me a little bit more about that need. Why do you think that’s so important?

Eddie Jjemba:

Well, it is pretty important because, I mean, from my story, facilitation generally was never regarded as some sort of work. So if it’s not regarded as work, that means it’s not going to be prioritized in an organization. So if someone emerges and they come and they say, “Yeah, here I am, I need a job. I am a facilitator, a conversation facilitator.” They’d be like, “What are you talking about? We are here to do work, not to talk.” Then in my context, when we think about changing climate, while the worst is yet to be seen all around the world, Africa is in a very difficult place or it’ll be in a very difficult place.

We are at a time when we need to define policies that will help the most vulnerable people to be protected from adverse impacts of climate change. And to do that, we need to facilitate conversation between those who are most vulnerable, the scientists that are informing us, the local leaders, especially the cultural leaders who are highly treasured, and then the governments who are decision makers, the women and children, everyone has to be in the table, on the table to make this conversation rich. And so that the outcome is really informed by local experience. We need facilitators to create that room. There are very few, and the scientists who are quite enthusiastic as well as the decision makers, what they know right now is PowerPoint, one PowerPoint after another, which is quite boring, but they don’t know what to do. How different, what other ways can we do it? Can we pass on this information? Any sector that you talk about within Africa, they will need that. They’ll need facilitators because of the growth trajectory that we are looking at and the change that we need to bring about.

Douglas Ferguson:

What do you think the most promising source of facilitators are in that space?

Eddie Jjemba:

Source of facilitators? I don’t know where we can, because I don’t know where they are. But I think starting with executives, we have leaders all around, leaders in different sectors, leaders of campaigns, leaders of nonprofits, leaders. And I think because our setting is so much driven by top down, until we touch the leaders to appreciate the value of facilitation, it’s unlikely that they’ll be able to commit some of their human resources and financial resources to empower their teams to be facilitators within the entities. But even between bridging the gap between their entities and other entities. Here we keep talking. For us, the humanitarian workers, we keep talking, we need partnerships, we need collaborations, but these need to be facilitated. In order to bridge these gaps, we need facilitators on the table equipped with facilitation skills. Now, one day when I wanted to just sharpen my facilitation skills, trying to get a little bit more. I looked at courses. I feel like the courses offered were quite out of reach in terms of finances, they’re costly basically, and if they’re costly, that becomes a prohibitive factor. So level one, we have the executive buy-in. Level two, it’s going to be the financial access or block.

So we’ll have to overcome the financial challenge for more Africans to access like cutting edge facilitation techniques. Now, where I work from, we try to infuse and empower our own humanitarian workers with facilitation techniques. So we organize either online trainings or in-person trainings to offer that what we have learned over time, and of course we have to continue guiding the champions and coaching them, mentoring them as they hone their facilitation skills. I think that those are the small baby steps we are taking for us within the Red Cross and the Red Crescent Climate Center, but also for the Red Cross and the Red Crescent Movement in general.

Douglas Ferguson:

Your mention of the Red Cross reminds me of the story you were telling earlier about the climate games and how foreign and strange that was for some of your coworkers. I’m really curious, how did those games work? What was it like being there and attending these programs?

Eddie Jjemba:

So for that particular game that oriented me into the world of facilitation, it was about forward-looking decision-making, and it’s basically like a tabletop simulation game with cards and with beans and dice representing probabilities and the beans representing finances. So you have to make an individual decision, but with consultation from others. So it was a game about forward-looking decision-making into 10-year future, and you’d experience the results of your decisions over the course of the game. However, there are other several ones which are basically small games to infuse some energy within a workshop, within a conference, within a meeting. Those ones, we pick them from here and they are from all over and try them out, put them into context and some fly and others flop, which reminds me earlier in my career, having been exposed to these various games at the climate center, I got an assignment to go to Somaliland and to play a game.

So I had a deck of cards, these usual cards, playing cards, but I was going to use them to just simulate people’s imagination who are not playing cards actually. But the moment I pulled out a deck of cards and I mentioned this is a deck of cards, my co-facilitator stopped me and said, “Wait, wait, wait, wait, wait. Eddie, here in this context we never do gambling.” So anything related to gambling, I immediately noticed that look, while I was not there to gamble, but the cards are related, they are affiliated to gambling, this game cannot continue. So anyway, we try to get games and then we put them into our own context, but always trying to make sure that they remain relevant to the goal that we have of reducing, like understanding changing risks and then making decision in the moment which impact the future.

Douglas Ferguson:

Yeah, that’s always critical. No matter what we’re bringing into a session, just thinking about how can we make it applicable, how can we align it to our context, to our purpose? And when you tell me about the playing cards and gambling and the connotations there, it also reminds me of how just the importance of clarity and facilitation and how often cultural boundaries. I imagine from your perspective working in a continent that has many countries that are quite diverse, there seems to be a sense of unity around Africa in general, but also there’s so much diversity with all these countries and the cultural backgrounds, and so I can imagine it can be, to your point, these card decks are problematic because of gambling, but I bet there’s so many examples of just how the words we use and the metaphors and the symbols we use, we have to be careful about how people respond to those.

Eddie Jjemba:

Absolutely, absolutely. So they are 52 countries, and then even within the country itself, like one country where I am here in Uganda, they’re over 30 dialects, and some of which I cannot completely understand. So if I cannot even understand the language or the dialect, that means, is it called a steep slope? But it takes a lot of effort for me to understand the culture. That’s where storytelling and connecting with people comes in. And our culture is so much oriented. By starting a small conversation with a person with whom you are convening the meeting or the workshop or the conference, they can reveal to you or they often reveal to me lots of things through a story, short stories, long stories, stories in the corridor, stories across the table, stories when we are having lunch and tea. Through these stories, I practice active listening. I have to really listen carefully to pick out what are these cultural markstones that are coming up that are popping up as this person speaks. And later on I use them to design or to facilitate the agenda itself that I have at hand. Listening.

Douglas Ferguson:

I was going to ask you about that actually, because you were talking about being intentional about these touch points that you create so you can connect with them in a meaningful and personal way. And I was curious about your process for that. And so you touched on it just now a bit, but I’m really curious to know a little bit more on how that evolves. Is that stuff you’re doing? You mentioned that it influences how you think about the agenda, so it must be happening before the event. So how far ahead of time and are you just meeting with them in person, or are you doing this virtually? What’s your process like really getting to that clarity that you need to make those epiphanies to draw them in more?

Eddie Jjemba:

So often it involves both online and offline meetings. So the online to get check-in what is it that you really want to achieve with this meeting. And then after that, we follow up with another online probably, and then we get offline where possible in the preparations. That is if I’m within the country where the workshop is going to happen, sometimes I’m not, but even when I am not, I make sure that I add in a day before to review the agenda that we already discussed online. And during the process of reviewing it in person, often things emerge. Also, when I’m beginning to craft an agenda, I often talk to whoever has invited me or whoever I’m co-organizing with. Now this is a guide, but because it’s a guide, some details can change. Changing in the moment during the facilitation or just before or immediately during the time when we are reviewing a session. But look, talking about this process of trying to find out information before when we are designing the agenda.

I had never thought about it so much critically until I undertook the course from the Voltage Control. And when we’re doing, we had several books that we used, and one of my life-changing books as a facilitator was the gift from the Voltage Control, The Art of Gathering by Priya Parker, who underscores the reason to find out the reason for the meeting by asking so many whys. Why, why, why, until you get to the real desire. In my case, often that is it’s usually bringing together scientists. I’m bringing together these decision makers from government, and then the scientists, while they say, “We are here to design something.” At the bottom is of their hearts is, “I am here to offer you the information that you need and therefore I need a lot of time so that I can go through all my slide decks.” But because of this learning to ask the why of the meeting, I have been able to also help the scientists know that yes, you need to deliver this information, but you also need people to listen to you.

Now my colleague says, “Do you want people to listen to you 10% and then they lose 90% of your content? Or do you want them to retain 90% of your content and therefore they should not be talked to more than 10% of the time.” Okay. So anyway, the point is I finally found comfort in asking a lot of, why would you like this workshop? Why would you like this meeting? Again and again, especially trying to get to the point of do you like it more interactive or less interactive, and what is the value of having it less interactive versus more interactive?

Douglas Ferguson:

It’s always interesting what you learn when you start to dial in and even to your point around making the agenda ahead of time based on some conversations, but then that day before really walking it through with them. And it’s a great opportunity to build some familiarity with folks and the flow that you plan and make changes in the last minute. And I think that demonstrates adaptability and builds a lot of trust and confidence.

Eddie Jjemba:

Yes, absolutely. And I’ve learned to ask, what would you like your participants to see, to feel, to think, to experience? And by asking those questions, it has helped people, my co-facilitators or the co-organizers to try to think holistically about the experience of a participant and to craft an agenda that suits the participants and make them feel enthusiastic about the work that we are going to do or about the work that we are already doing.

Douglas Ferguson:

Yeah, I love that, it shows up in the workshop design canvas that we created and how we think about how participants are going to leave and how they’re showing up, because then that gap can be really visible to us as designers, and so we know exactly what we need to address.

Eddie Jjemba:

And talking about designing, I discovered that I used to think that the designing part of the workshop is daunting. It’s a lonely activity. It’s a soul-searching activity, so to say. And I would try to quicken it, do it, chap, chap, so that we get to the day of facilitation and delivering. But I have learned that it’s worth the effort to spend a lot of time in designing phase of the workshop because it’ll determine a lot how the actual delivering of the workshop conference or meeting will happen. And if you do it in a co-development process, it yields even much more better fruits and the results are well co-owned. If something didn’t go well, all of you as the facilitation team would be like, “yes, we would’ve improved. And it reduces opportunities of pointing fingers that probably it was you Eddie who didn’t give sufficient time for design.

Douglas Ferguson:

Yes. It’s easier for people to assume positive intent and think about how we can improve versus trying to cast blame. For sure. Well, let’s see. In our remaining time, I want to kind of shift maybe just reflecting a bit, and my first semi-reflective question here is about the leaders that you mentioned, and how important it was to start with the leaders and to build appreciation for facilitation awareness, and maybe even get them trained to be better facilitators so that they can influence the organizations that they’re a part of. And I’m curious, what do you think are the hallmarks of leaders that are going to be the most receptive to facilitation or ones that might be more apt to embrace it, learn it, and adopt it.

Eddie Jjemba:

In terms of embracing and learning, I think of the mid-level managers, I think about them as the movers, the senior managers, I think about them as those who just offer a blessing. They need to experience it once and be like, yeah, go. No go. Once they have given a go, then the mid-level managers, these make it happen. And I love in our facilitation trainings for leaders, usually we want the senior management to identify a person and they hand them over to us, and usually that is a person who is in the mid-level management that we offer the different facilitation techniques, expose them to various methods and then guide them going forward. Now, once we have guided the mid-level managers, then they are enthusiastic also to guide even the lower management levels. So I feel like the movers are the mid-level managers, but of course they have to first get the goal from the senior level management.

Douglas Ferguson:

And what do you think are the qualities of the senior leaders that are the most apt to give the go ahead and who are the people that are pretty much ready but maybe just aren’t aware just yet?

Eddie Jjemba:

That’s a difficult one to answer, but who are the most ready? I don’t know. It’s hard to find the most ready ones.

Douglas Ferguson:

And maybe not a specific person or a specific industry, but what are the qualities? What do you think is true about those people?

Eddie Jjemba:

Okay. There have to be some people who are enthusiastic about their work and about sustainable change. Now, the word sustainability, I think sometimes it’s misused, but a leader who would love to see change an impact for the kind of work that they do, they are likely to embrace because they’ll be able to see its capacity to drive change. And for the leaders who are not enthusiastic, it’s less likely, but also leaders who are probably young and energetic and young is relative, but those who are enthusiastic to learn new things, probably that’s the quality that I want to put forward. They’re the ones that are likely to appreciate facilitation and hopefully encourage their teams to have these facilitation skills. I also tend to think it’s not good to have this single person in an organization as our go-to facilitator, rather than everyone should have some level of facilitation because we are facilitating day in and day out. The scale differs, but we are.

Douglas Ferguson:

Yeah, it makes a big difference when even folks that aren’t positional leaders or aren’t hosting meetings, if they’re showing up with an understanding and appreciation of good facilitation skills, they’re going to be better meeting attendants. They’re going to help out and bring more people in. And the success of the gathering just skyrockets. I mean, imagine if every wedding you went to was attended by wedding planners, it’d probably be a pretty spectacular event, right? There’d be a lot of sympathy and empathy for what everyone’s going through, right?

Eddie Jjemba:

Absolutely. Absolutely. So yeah, this need for that diversity, diversifying facilitation, how do

Douglas Ferguson:

You think that facilitation will continue to shape the future of climate?

Eddie Jjemba:

Great, great, great great, great question. Look, I think actually it’s going to be very, very important. Number one, if you do a Google search immediately, you’ll find lots of meetings about climate, lots of workshops, and even mega conferences that happen like the one that we call the conference of parties, where big decisions happen, when these meetings are not well facilitated. There is passivity, passiveness in the attendance, passiveness in contributing great ideas, passiveness in owning the outcome. Now, I think we are going to need, and my hope is that we’ll have lots of skilled and even semi-skilled facilitators having these very interactive, highly engaging meetings starting from the lowest level of administration. In my case, it’ll be the village to the highest level of administration, which would be at the global level. Getting the voices of those who are most impacted heard, but also getting the voices of those who are best skilled at producing solutions equally hard in the same room to define the solution for climate.

And when it comes to cities, it is even going to be more important. The world is becoming urbanized day by day. We have already gone past the 50% of the world’s population living in cities, and it’s expected it’s going to rise into eighties. Some other places like the Latin America and the Caribbean have already also got there. But anyway, wherever we have a lot of diversity concentrated in the single place, and we need to make a decision or to come up with solutions that are co-owned, which is the case for the climate change, we need facilitation We need excellent facilitation. That is the force that will ensure adequate inclusion of older voices and which means acceptable solutions for those who are there. Yeah, I think that we will come to a place where we have even climate change specialists having facilitation as one of their job descriptions, I think. Yes.

Douglas Ferguson:

As we come to an end here, I’d love to give you an opportunity to leave our listeners with a final thought.

Eddie Jjemba:

One, facilitation is not designed. It’s a skill which can be learned. So it’s not only for extroverts, it’s not only for introverts. Anyone can be a facilitator, but it is an art, which means we have to be intentional as facilitators getting various facilitation techniques, crafting them together to come up with unique facilitation styles, which are also applicable for specific cultural contexts. The other one is we need to spread facilitation as a profession, especially within developing countries, both in Africa, in Asia and elsewhere. I feel like there’s a big gap in terms of facilitation skills in the developing world, and one, there has to be awareness and appreciation that it’s needed both by leaders, but everyone as well. And then two, to make it accessible, especially to remove the financial barriers that makes people not able to access facilitation skills offered in conferences, in trainings, elsewhere. And I think lastly, it’s so rewarding to facilitate a productive conversation.

Douglas Ferguson:

Eddie, it’s been a pleasure chatting with you today. Thank you so much for joining me.

Eddie Jjemba:

Thank you very much, Douglas. Thanks for hosting me. And yes, I look forward to seeing the panel of Facilitation moving all around.

Douglas Ferguson:

Thanks for joining me for another episode of the Facilitation Lab Podcast. If you enjoyed the episode, please leave us a review and be sure to subscribe and receive updates when new episodes are released. We love listener tales and invite you to share your facilitation stories. Send them to us on LinkedIn or via email. If you want to know more, head over to our blog where I post weekly articles and resources about facilitation, team dynamics and collaboration. Voltagecontrol.com.

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