“It’s most costly in the wasted human energy and time that goes into things that people in the end don’t care about. That is what’s the most frustrating to me, seeing people pour their energy with the hope that it’s going to pay off, and then in the end, when people shrug, it’s just so demoralizing.”- Jake Knapp

In this episode of the Facilitation Lab podcast, host Douglas Ferguson converses with Jake Knapp, co-founder and general partner at Character Capital, and a former Google employee instrumental in developing Gmail and Google Meet. The episode delves into Jake’s extensive experience in product development, emphasizing the importance of understanding customer needs and market differentiation. Jake shares insights from his early coding and game development days, highlighting the value of iterative testing and customer feedback. They discuss the “foundation sprint” and “magic lenses” techniques for refining product ideas and making informed decisions. The episode underscores the necessity of clarity and alignment in successful product development.

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About the Guest

Jake Knapp cofounder and general partner at Character Capital and a New York Times bestselling author. Previously, he helped build Gmail and Microsoft Encarta, cofounded Google Meet, and was a partner at Google Ventures.

About Voltage Control

Voltage Control is a facilitation academy that develops leaders through certifications, workshops, and organizational coaching focused on facilitation mastery, innovation, and play. Today’s leaders are confronted with unprecedented uncertainty and complex change. Navigating this uncertainty requires a systemic facilitative approach to gain clarity and chart pathways forward. We prepare today’s leaders for now and what’s next.

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Transcript

Douglas Ferguson:

Hi, I’m Douglas Ferguson. Welcome to the Facilitation Lab Podcast, where I speak with Voltage Control certification alumni and other facilitation experts about the remarkable impact they’re making. We embrace a method agnostic approach so you can enjoy a wide range of topics and perspectives as we examine all the nuances of enabling meaningful group experiences. This series is dedicated to helping you navigate the realities of facilitating collaboration, ensuring every session you lead becomes truly transformative. Thanks so much for listening.

If you’d like to join us for a live session sometime, you can join our facilitation lab community. It’s an ideal space to apply what you learn in the podcast in real time with peers. Sign up today at voltagecontrol.com/facilitation-lab. And if you’d like to learn more about our 12-week facilitation certification program, you can read about it at voltagecontrol.com. Today I’m with Jake Knapp, co-founder and general partner at Character Capital and a New York Times bestselling author. Previously, he helped build Gmail and Microsoft Encarta, co-founded Google Meet and was a partner at Google Ventures. Welcome to the show, Jake

Jake Knapp:

Douglas, thank you so much for having me on. Great to see you as always, and pleasure to be here.

Douglas Ferguson:

Yeah, it’s so good to be in conversation with you again. I want to start off with the first story in the book, and as someone who spent countless hours on a Commodore 64 at a young age that story really resonated with me, and so I just thought it’d be a fun way to kind of open up the podcast to you.

Jake Knapp:

Well, yeah, I started with the Commodore 64 as well, although I could never quite make anything happen on it that I wanted to. When you remember the cassette tape drive, I mean, that seems wild today that the data was stored.

Douglas Ferguson:

Yeah, I mean, I even remember coding with a go-to command and just the thought of that makes my brain hurt nowadays.

Jake Knapp:

If you’re listening to this and you’re wondering when we say cassette, what we’re talking about, it’s literally the kinds of cassettes that you’d make, like a mixtape on, an audio cassette. But the story at the beginning of the book is about when I was in middle and then high school and got into coding and making computer games on the Mac computer, and this is the black and white Mac. If you think of the first Macintosh computers, that’s what it looked like. And I spent just ages working on this game.

It was a castle adventure kind of thing. Go in the castle, you get a sword, fighting monsters. And I was trying to do this first person perspective, but it wasn’t like it was rendered by code, I was hand drawing the artwork for each view that you had. So if you turn left, then all of a sudden I had to draw that screen too. And as you move through the castle, I just couldn’t get very far. And anyway, I’ve finally felt like, okay, it’s ready to show to people.

I’ve been working on it for, I don’t know, a year and a half or something, and I bring it to school and on a floppy disk, and I show it to my friend Ian. And I didn’t tell him where it came from, and he’s just starts playing it, and he’s like, “I don’t know.” And my other friend comes in and he’s like, “Matt, do you want to turn on this game Jake found?” And Matt starts playing it and he’s like, “Yeah, you guys want to go play basketball?” And I was just like, “Oh my God.” I’m.

Douglas Ferguson:

Crushed.

Jake Knapp:

I’m crushed. I’ve spent so long working on it, and my hope was, “Oh, I won’t tell him.” And they’ll be like, “Whoa, what’s this cool game? Where’d this come from?” So the thing that happened though was I was just dead set on making something that my friends would play. And so I went back home and I started trying different games, but this time I thought, I can’t wait a year and a half every time before I show them, or I’m going to be graduated from high school before this gets done.

So I would just make the beginning of the game and to try out the mechanics a little bit. So I’d spend about a week on it and I’d come back and I’d show it to my friends and see what happened. And I tried all different kinds of games and finally I hit on this one. It was a mouse going through a maze, and each maze was really fast. You could get through it in like a few seconds. And in fact, there was a timer that would count down. So it was very fast-paced. And I got a bunch of sound effects from Ren & Stimpy and The Simpsons and Beavis and Butt-Head, all the stuff that I was watching and enjoying at the time.

All these little sound effects that would play and kind of make fun of you as you went along. And finally, my friends, they started to get into that and it clicked. I remember watching them play and lean forward and get into it and talk trash to each other. So that experience, yeah, it was the genesis of the way I think about products to this day. You’ve got to find something that clicks with your customer and above all else, that is the most important thing.

Douglas Ferguson:

So I’m really curious, with that lesson learned so early on, were you able to avoid making stuff that didn’t click or did you still run into those moments where you thought you had it figured out only for other people to show you otherwise?

Jake Knapp:

Right. That sounds like it should be the origin story of… And then I went on and created blizzard, but that’s Minecraft. But that is not what happened. I went to work at Microsoft, actually, was the first big software company I’d worked at. I worked at Oakley, the sunglasses company briefly beforehand on their website, their online store. But when I got to Microsoft, I was like, “Okay, now I’m building software and this is a continuation. This is my dream to make things that people love.”

And I was working on the encyclopedia. And in the early days that I was there, so 2000, 2001, 2002, I mean, this was still a product that people really did love and we would work on it and build a new version of the encyclopedia each year and launch it. And there were a lot of really enthusiastic fans of that product. Kids used it to study and it was really cool. But Wikipedia came out right around that time and started to just explode and so it was pretty evident a couple years in that the internet was changing the way people looked for information.

And we, with our CD ROMs that you had to swap in and out of the drive were not on the fast track to long future. So yeah, the thing is, it took us a year to make a product and put it out in the world. And I kept thinking, “I’ve got a new idea, this is going to change the game.” And it would take us a year before it got out there and you know, it wasn’t moving the needle and it wasn’t moving the needle. And this is a thing that can happen far too easily, especially if you’re in a large organization, especially if you’ve had success in the past, but it also happens to startup founders.

So I mean, if we fast way, way, way forward to today, I’m an investor with a fund called Character Capital and we invest in early stage startup founders, and it can happen to them. It can happen to folks who are just getting started just in that garage phase, so to speak, that you can have this idea and be convinced that once you get it right and get it out to people then it’s all going to work and you can talk yourself into just as I did in high school, just as I did at Microsoft, spending a year, a year and a half building something that in the end people see it and they’re like, “Ah.”

Douglas Ferguson:

It’s also making me think about how you can make something that clicks, but then the market can shift and it can unclick. And so it’s about being just super conscious of how things are evolving, what’s new, what’s fresh.

Jake Knapp:

That’s right. And a big part of the message of the new book is getting in touch with your customer and getting really crisp about what your belief is, about what the customer needs, what the customer’s problem is, how you can solve it in a special way, get really crisp about that. Put it into the form of a hypothesis, and then test that hypothesis. And you always have to test your hypothesis about the customer because it does change.

The world is constantly changing people’s expectations, their hopes, the solutions available to them, they’re always changing. And that first started to become clear to me at Microsoft as I was working on Encarta. And when I went to go work at Google in the mid two 2000s it was reinforced for me because we were building products there that really were on that edge of changing the way people did things. I worked on the Gmail team and then co-founded the product that became Google Meet.

And as we were doing these new things you’d find that something that you tested one week and it didn’t make sense to people and they’d never try it, and if you kept at it and tried to make it clearer and clearer, and as the world changed and people got more used to new things, hey, you know what, a couple of months later, maybe they were open to it, maybe you got it right and their world changed. And getting that intersection right requires a constant awareness of and experimentation with your customers.

Douglas Ferguson:

So I’m thinking about the Foundation Sprint and even the book itself, Click, what was the moment that sparked for you that this is necessary? Because there was a lot of talk of know, is Jake going to do Design Sprint version two? Is it going to be like a newer, bigger, better Design Sprint or whatnot? But you went to the thing before. And so what was the moment that you said, “Okay, I need to go figure this out and write this book because that’s what’s needed next.”?

Jake Knapp:

Well, it’s probably overdue for there to be a Design Sprint 2.0 book because I’ve learned things, Douglas, you’ve learned things. It’s been a while that we’ve been running these and we know there are improvements over what’s in the book, but at the end of the day it’s a lot of work to write a book. Having done it a couple of times I wouldn’t do it unless I knew that there was something that is just driving me crazy to not share it with people. That’s getting a little ahead though.

To go back to that moment when I realized something was missing. So I had worked at Google and created the Design Sprint in around 2010. I ran the first one in 2010, and it was starting to think about it in 2009 based on some experiences with Google Meet and with Gmail where I’d run these one week prototype sessions and then tested it with people at the end of the week and saw how powerful that was. Created the Design Sprint, started to formalize it, went to go work at Google Ventures, started running these with founders and startups and did that for five years, wrote the Sprint book.

I left Google and then together with my co-author John Zeratsky and our friend Eli Blee-Goldman, we founded this venture fund Character Capital, and we started working with early stage founders. And at Google Ventures we had gotten further and further away from the early stage as our reputation grew and as we were able to invest more money in later stage companies, that was always the strategy with Google Ventures, was to put a lot of money to work. But that means later stage companies and those companies don’t have what for me is really the heart of it, the cherry on top.

The most fun part is the earliest moments when you’re shaping the direction, you’re trying to figure out if you can find product market fit in the first place. So with Character Capital, we fast-forward to 2020, 20 21, and I’m starting to work with early stage founders. Again, it’s so fun. And I started to notice occasionally we would do a brand sprint with them or just have a conversation a sideline conversation in the Design Sprint and started to realize that there were some really basic fundamental things that all founders think about and have some sense of, but rarely have made crisp.

And let me be specific about what those are. It’s rare that on the founding team, every person on the founding team, let’s say there’s three people in an early stage startup, it’s rare that all three people will say the same thing if you say who’s your target customer, but they’ll all define it in the exact same way. It’s rare that they’ll all three tell you what the customer’s problem is that they’re trying to solve. It’s rare that they’ll have an immediate list of here’s our top three to five competitors and this is the one who’s the most important.

It’s rare that they’ll be able to quickly rattle off for you, here’s our advantage that we have, the insight, the special capability that the competition doesn’t have. And they all have a general sense of those things, but it’s rare that all of that is super crisp. And unfortunately it’s also rare that they’re really crisp about their differentiation. What’s going to make our solution so much better than those alternatives, those competitors, the ways people are doing things today? What’s going to make our solution so much better that it’s going to make the alternatives look like junk and people will switch to ours?

So they may have thought about differentiation in terms of industry or technology, but it’s rare to have this crisp vision of the customer perception that we’re trying to create. And so it just came up from these conversations, and I remember starting to think we don’t have a good tool for getting at this. The brand Sprint was actually almost the closest tool that we had. And the brand Sprint is all around figuring out how do you want to express yourself through visuals, through language? How do you compare yourself?

You think about car brands and are they more friendly or more of an authority or whatever. And so it’s not the right tool. And so that was the genesis of this first notion that there’s something missing before the Design Sprint. People need to get crisp about what their hypothesis is. And if you look at the teams who have had the best Design Sprints that we’ve worked with, they had clarity about their hypothesis, and it made the results of their sprint better because they knew what they needed to get at, they knew what they needed to assess when they prototyped and tested.

Douglas Ferguson:

It’s making me think about how you mentioned that even the simple stuff is not easy, these seemingly obvious basics that teams consistently struggle with. And so I’m curious, why do you think they find them so challenging?

Jake Knapp:

I think it’s hard because it’s like you’re a fish and there’s water all around you, or we don’t think about the air we’re breathing. It’s just there are so many things to do when you’re starting a company. There’s so many things to figure out. You’ve got to think about incorporating your company and making payroll and all of these millions of things. Can we get the domain name that we need? And there’s just a million things. You’re trying to talk to customers, you’re trying to get customers, you’re trying to build something.

And so of course you thought about what you’re doing, you thought about who your customer is and what kind of thing you’re building, but it’s that difference between being at the 100-foot level and being at the one-foot level and being really specifically crisp about it. I think people talk about it and then they move forward doing those first early steps of a project. And if you’re in a large company, the same thing happens. You start off and you say, “Oh, I think this would be an interesting opportunity for us to go after.” And pretty soon you’re building your team.

The engineers are chomping at the bit to write code. You don’t want to slow them down, you’re writing a PRD. And in all of this we have a lot to do. We have to create big documents, we have to create lines and lines and lines of code. We’ve got to do all this stuff that the simple kernel gets obscured. And something that I believe is true about the most successful products that we’ve ever seen in the world is that they have clarity about that simple kernel and they don’t lose that clarity. And so the thing that they set out to do in the beginning is, we’re going to solve this problem for people in a radically differentiated way.

It’s so different from what anyone else has seen before. It’s a cliche to talk about the iPhone, but it’s a clear example of this. So much easier to use, so much more powerful than the products that had come before. And they set out to do that and then that’s what they build and that’s what they talk about when the product comes out. And great products, great solutions do that. And it is actually hard to keep clarity about the simple basics of what you’re offering and to nail it in the right way. And so yeah, I think, I think it’s just true that it’s difficult.

Douglas Ferguson:

Let’s talk about differentiation. What are some of the mistakes that startups make when trying to differentiate? And how can the two-by-two and clearer project principles help them?

Jake Knapp:

The biggest mistake, I think, is just that we don’t realize how hard it is to stand out in the market and to make a compelling case to people that they should spend any time even thinking about what you’re doing. And so I think the more we go along in life and we have the experience of creating things and offering them out into the world, the more we’ll get the experience of that not going the way we hope. Sometimes just as that happened to me in high school and it happened with Encarta and I’ve seen it happen with all kinds of things over and over again.

Quite often we come up with what we think is going to be a lovely idea, something people get really excited about, we show it to them and they shrug. And it’s not that people hate us, it’s just that there’s so much going on in everyone’s life. And we have limited time, we have limited energy so to spend the calories even thinking about adding something new into your work world, your life, whatever, it’s something we don’t want to do. We don’t want to do it unless it’s really compelling and really catchy and really just, gosh, I’d be crazy not to try this thing.

So even to listen to the sales pitch is a lot. Even to look at your marketing page is a lot to ask. And then you get past that to try the thing that’s a lot. Gosh, this untrusted thing from the startup I’ve never heard of, I’m going to sign up for it, oof, that’s tough. Even if you’re talking about early adopters, tough to get them to make that step. There’s so many things being offered all the time. And then to get people to truly adopt it, that’s tough too.

So I think the mistake that we all tend to make about differentiation is to undervalue just how fantastic something has to sound to penetrate through our natural armor against trying anything new, against listening to any new pitch, against all of the constant messages and shouting that’s coming at us all the time from our inbox, from the news, from wherever you go, everybody’s trying to grab your attention. And to get through that it’s just got to be really, really special. And you should not stop experimenting with your differentiation until you’re extremely confident that I’ve got a message now that’s getting through the noise and people are excited about it.

Douglas Ferguson:

Do you ever find that startups will claim a differentiator that their competitor might claim or put them in a bucket that a competitor would never say or the market would never perceive them in that way just because it’s an ideal way of looking at it? And if so, what are your tips for helping them break out of that way of thinking and being more authentic maybe?

Jake Knapp:

I think it’s quite common that if we set out to differentiate ourselves, our products ourselves, you know, individually or whatever, and we say, this is what makes me special, that we might not actually have the right viewpoint on what we’re offering. Let’s use the example of speed. You might think that, gosh, the way our product delivers something it’s really fast and that’s going to catch customers attention, but we might find that when we actually offer it to customers, when we run experiments that they’re not moved by that. That doesn’t matter to them.

They’re like, “Well, the alternative is already fast enough.” I’m not excited enough to change my approach by speed. And actually, I’ll give you a concrete example of this. So we worked with a company called Orbital Materials. They’re in our portfolio. It’s a startup who was founded by a guy from DeepMind who had worked on this really cool project where they developed an AI to analyze X-rays for trying to detect breast cancer. And they were able to beat radiologists at diagnosing breast cancer from X-rays.

And so this guy’s a great mind and a great computer scientist, and he thought, “I would love to apply AI to designing molecules so that we can find replacements for jet fuel and cobalt.” And things that are hard to develop today, or rare, expensive. If we could design molecules, he thinks we can solve a lot of problems that the world either faces now or is going to face very soon in terms of shortages of items or high costs items. So he starts off this company, builds an amazing team of chemists and computer scientists. And then to make this business actually work, to make this vision actually work, they’ve got to be able to work with the chemical manufacturers.

And so to go and set up a pilot program to get a design partner who will work with you as you’re designing these chemicals and hopefully finding some that work and actually be willing to say, “Okay, now we’re going to go through and manufacture some of these and see if they scale,” he’s got to make the case to these companies who have been coming up with their products in the traditional way, which takes years of trial and error through traditional chemistry. They’ve been doing it that way for 100 years.

And the promise that this new way of doing things is faster or higher tech or smarter, which on the surface, if you listen to the story, the way I tell it seems, yeah, well this new way has got to be faster, it must be smart and high-tech, but if you’re a chemical manufacturer and you’ve been doing it a hundred years the same way and it’s working for you, well that doesn’t sound. The old way of doing things I don’t have to change anything to make it keep working that way, it’s reliable, I trust it. So how do you reframe the world and make this new way of doing things sound appealing?

And so they had to try a bunch of different differentiators before they hit on this is the thing that’s actually compelling to people. And it was that they were going to be able to produce higher quality products and that those products would actually be more reliable. That it would be a more reliable development chain. And then they had to prove those two points. But they had to first hit on where’s the sort of the in the armor? Where’s the gap where we might be able to penetrate through the defenses that we all have against new stuff?

And they thought those are the spots they first identified as being vulnerable and then they had to say, “Okay, now we’ve got to prove that we can do that.” And then guess what? Like that ends up shaping the product that you build because first and foremost, you’re now trying to develop a product that will deliver on that promise of reliability, that will deliver on that promise of higher quality products. So that’s why I think what it looks like in real life is that we often, our first guess what we think might be compelling isn’t compelling, and we have to keep experimenting and tweaking until we find the thing that breaks through.

Douglas Ferguson:

You first introduced the idea of work alone together in the book Sprint, and it makes a strong comeback and click. And so I’m curious, why do you think this technique continues to resonate and proves so effective for teams, especially compared to our default methods or brainstorming and the ways that people typically approach these challenges?

Jake Knapp:

Well, you’ve experienced it. You’ve done this work alone together thing I know a lot and it is a surprisingly simple and powerful shift when you have a group of people. There’s some fantastic magic that happens when you have a group of people together trying to solve a problem. You’ve got different viewpoints, you’ve got the sense of perhaps inspiration people will get from one another, you’ve got also a little hint of competition that Douglas is in here and he’s going to come up with some good ideas, I need to bring my A game if I’m going to have anything worthwhile to contribute.

It’s different for me being on my own now with no one watching. Now Douglas is watching I’ve got to do a bit better. And all of those elements are really healthy, but they actually get watered down and messed up by the unfettered group brainstorm. Everyone can talk, anything goes conversation that we will default into as just as humans. We’ll all default into just talking our way through a problem. And that talking our way through our problem is subject to people who are really great at making a sales pitch for their idea. Their ideas will tend to be overvalued.

Folks who are introverted or for whatever reason, just maybe don’t think well when other people are talking, and I put myself in both of those categories, they’re not going to do as well in the environment of a group brainstorm. And then we have all kinds of cognitive biases that come in. So like the last idea that somebody said well that’s going to have recency bias helping it out, or the more somebody pitches their idea, we’re going to start to have confirmation bias. We’re going to associate ideas with people rather than with the merits of the idea itself.

And we’re going to be limited to the verbal, the audio only description of the idea and not the content of the idea. So when we work alone together, I mean, simply what happens is you say, okay, everybody be quiet, here’s the prompt, here’s the question that we’re trying to answer first and now I want you to spend some time thinking about it quietly writing down your solution or your answer. It could be an answer on a sticky note, it could be a back of the napkin style sketch of something or a detailed solution as we do in Design Sprints.

And then we’re going to review all of those, but they’re going to be anonymous and we’re going to look at them in silence, and then we know we’re going to vote on those and then the decider’s going to choose and maybe she or he is going to say, “Hey, there’s a bunch of votes here and a bunch of votes there, but I like this one. Could somebody tell me why? What I’m missing here.” And so then maybe the kind of conversation you have at that point is so much richer, the contribution, everybody’s been able to contribute, they haven’t had to sales pitch and think at the same time, there’s more detail.

Just everything about it is better. And I know I don’t have to sell you on this because I think you’ve been doing this and modifying it and finding your own new ways to apply it, but it’s super powerful. For me, honestly, it goes back to writing code and procedural thinking, trying to break down a function into what are the steps that need to happen to make it work. And when you run a request, the computer, the processor, it’s got to do some work. Our brains are the same way. So it’s also partly about creating space where the brain can process and then return something back to you.

And it just makes so much sense and works so much better than the traditional group brainstorm. So yeah, I work alone together. I found myself coming to the point in the new book, which I have a finished copy of right here. I found myself coming to the point where I was like, “Gosh, you know what? I’m going to have to reintroduce that idea because I can’t assume that everybody else is already sold on that. And I got a little more into it in Qlik and drew some cartoons and tried to really drive the point home of why it makes such a difference.

Douglas Ferguson:

The decider role also came back for round two.

Jake Knapp:

Yes.

Douglas Ferguson:

How can facilitators engage the decider? That’s something I’ve always been really curious about, ensuring that the decider’s voice is influential without overpowering others, and how do we guide them toward making clear decisions?

Jake Knapp:

Yeah, if you’re facilitating the decider is your best friend. I mean, not that you have to cozy up to them in some way, but just that the decider makes it so much easier to navigate through a problem with a group of people because at any point that you need to, you can flip to the decider and say, “Hey, can you tell us which of these options is the best?” Or “Can you narrow this down now to a field of three where we can zero in on.” Whatever.

You’ve got a lot of possibility with a decider to snap out of what becomes an open-ended conversation or an open-ended debate at any point, the decider is your key to moving on to the next level, unlocking the door to the next room that you have to pass through to solve a problem. And in the structures that I set up, whether it’s the Design Sprint or now the Foundation Sprint, I’m very intentionally setting the decider as the lock opener into the next room as we go from one batch of activities to the next and to the next and to the next.

And if you’re a facilitator and you’re either running a Foundation Sprint or crafting your own structure, I think that’s the first, the simplest thing is just to use the decider when you’re at a point when it would be otherwise hard to make progress they make the call, they move things along. And you can call on them even before your process is ready for it if you need to break a tie or to tell us, “Do you feel like we should spend three more minutes talking about this or have we heard enough?”

I mean, anything goes. The thing about the decider is that the method has to create enough space for everyone to contribute that it doesn’t just become a decider monologue going all the way through. And so for me, it’s a balancing act between now if I think about a small startup and we think about, hey, there might be three, five, 10 people in this early stage startup, the CEO’s usually the decider, although not always, depends on the content of the sprint, but the CEO’s voice is incredibly important here. We don’t want to make a decision that subverts the CEO, what she wants.

We shouldn’t have the group’s decision, a democracy subvert what the CEO wants to have happen because it’s her company, her role to make those decisions. But at the same time, we should provide her with as many tools as possible to make the best decision possible. And that means getting something good from everybody that she can evaluate and getting some sense of the group’s evaluation of those options. So as we talked through the work alone together structure, it’s everybody comes up with their own proposal in silence, everybody reviews and votes in silence.

Sometimes even people will write down their decision or their proposal on a sticky note in silence, and then the decider makes the call and she’s encouraged to draw out those conversations. As the facilitator, you can intercede there and when you see that maybe the decider hasn’t paid enough attention to this stuff, you can slow things down or speed them up, and I think that’s one of the key powers of the facilitator. But the structure itself also should always elevate competing opinions for the decider, should always give pause to the decider before she makes a decision.

But you also have to be really careful as a facilitator that you don’t let that methodology overwhelm the decider’s intuition. At the end of the day, the most important thing about the way that I work with teams, the Foundation Sprint where you’re creating a hypothesis or the Design Sprint where you’re testing that hypothesis, is that we need the decider’s intuition to get great. It may not be great in the beginning, but we need it to get to the place where it’s great because the deciders ultimately are predictor of what’s going to work.

They’re going to make a prediction and we’re going to follow executing on that prediction, and then we’re going to hope it comes true in the end. There’s a pot of gold at the end of the rainbow. So in these sprints we’re trying to zero in and identify the decider’s intuition. We’re trying to tune it and give it every advantage of the team, but ultimately the deciders forming the hypothesis and then the decider saying, “This is the form of solution, I think will prove that hypothesis.”

And every time we run an experiment and test with customers we’re showing, well, here’s what the world said. It said, “You’re wrong.” And when that happens that’s a powerful moment for the decider to get better, for their intuition to improve and improve and improve. The success of our product ultimately will be the result of how well we can inform and improve our decider’s intuition or how strong it is to begin with and how much we can isolate and clarify it. So anyway, that’s a lot, but as a facilitator, that’s what I see my job is doing.

Douglas Ferguson:

I love the callback to the swords and sorcery games and the decider unlocking the next room.

Jake Knapp:

It’s a quest. It’s always a quest.

Douglas Ferguson:

That it is. Maybe there’s another book title in the future.

Jake Knapp:

It could be. It could be a good one. I like that word. I always a big fan of a tribe called Quest and so the word quest is just always a special.

Douglas Ferguson:

So let’s talk about magic lenses for a moment. You talk about it being an activity or a way to explore conflicting opinions, which I think is really important when we’re bringing groups together and harnessing the power of diversity. So how can facilitators burst guide teams through this process?

Jake Knapp:

Magic lenses is an activity that if I do say so myself, I’m really proud of it. I think that for the past, I suppose 15 years, you could kind of boil down what I’ve been doing with Design Sprints and now the Foundation Sprint, you can boil it all down to helping people make decisions about things that are hard to decide on. And part of that is time boxing, so you accelerate those decisions, but part of it also is evaluating multiple paths, making sure we’ve clarified what those paths are and identifying them in a Design Sprint that’s sketching different solutions that we might prototype and build in a Foundation Sprint.

On day two of the Foundation Sprint, it’s about identifying the approaches that we might take to solving this problem. So not the specific solution, but like are we building a plugin for somebody else’s software? Are we building standalone software? Are we building a dashboard? Are we building a chatbot? There’s all these different broad paths that we might take and then in a Design Sprint we’ll get really detailed on, okay, what’s the form of that thing look like? And making a choice like this, when I thought about it for these early stage founders, it’s you have the opportunity to pre pivot.

Often you’re a founder and you start building something, it’s just not working out, and like me showing my friend Ian, this computer game, I realize I’ve got to go in a different direction. I’ve got to pivot. Well, if you could have that moment of thinking, so what are my other options? If you could do that first, you might either have more conviction about the path you’re already on or you might say, “Gosh, this other one, when I evaluated in the context of my differentiation and everything I’ve been thinking about with the basics of my project, I actually think I have a better shot at this other path I’m going to pre pivot.”

Anyway, that’s a huge decision to make. And even though in a Foundation Sprint we’re only forming a hypothesis, we’re going to experiment right away with a Design Sprint and if I haven’t made it clear already, the idea is you run this two-day Foundation Sprint and then you go right away into five-day Design Sprints to test it, to run the experiments. But even if it’s just a week at a time experiment it’s still a big decision. We want it to be very carefully considered. So the idea with magic lenses is to use two by two charts, that old business school, standby to plot out different viewpoints on our options.

So let’s say we’ve got three different options for how we might approach this problem, option A, option B, option C, we’re going to look at those through the customer lens. What solves the customer’s problem in the best way possible? And plot that out on a two by two. Think of the two factors that for us are most important for the customer solution. And which of these is the easiest to use and solves their problem in the best way? And that’d be in the top right. Maybe option A is in the top right there. And then we think about the money lens. Well, we’re going to need to turn this into a business.

So which of these has the highest long-term value to a customer? What do we suspect people would pay for the most? Which has the largest possible audience of customers? And now maybe option B is in the top right. And option A in this one maybe it’s in the top right quadrant, but it’s not pegged right into the corner there and option C is somewhere in the mix. And now we look at growth. Not only what are the most potential customers, but what do we think is the easiest to adopt? And now we look at the pragmatic view, which of these is the easiest to build, the fastest to build?

We look at our differentiation. If our differentiators are reliability and high quality, which of these approaches best delivers on those factors? And then there are always other lenses particular to a company. So people can create their own two by two charts. What happens if we’ve color coded option A, option B and option C? You can imagine these charts side by side by side, we zoom out on those and we look at where the colors are, you can often see a pattern often the same option is in the top right in every chart. That actually happens a good amount of the time and you think, well “Gosh, clearly we can feel good about pursuing that option.”

Sometimes it’s a mix. And that’s actually helpful too, because if we’re feeling conflicted about proceeding on our project, it might be that it’s because it’s just not clearly as good at growth as it is at the pragmatic view or as it is at differentiation. And so now we know growth is going to be a challenge, but maybe we still have conviction. Maybe when it’s mixed we’ll say one of these lenses is truly the most important. And even though we don’t have consensus among all the lenses, this one is so important. That’s the way that we’re going to make this decision. For us, it’s all about the customer.

We’re just going to deliver the thing that is best for the customer and trust that the rest of it will work itself out. Any of those is a viable way to move through magic lenses, make a decision on an approach and graduate to having your founding hypothesis. If you’re the facilitator helping teams to move through that is a really special moment. There is just mechanics of getting people through plotting charts, and we can talk about that if you like. It helps to do one axis at a time and to have the decider or one person who’s an expert on each domain talk about those charts.

But what’s really special about this activity is that you make a very complex situation, visual. You capture it in a way that the brain can parse, whereas when all of these factors are in our heads, it’s very hard to have clarity about what’s going on through all these different lenses. As a facilitator, your guidance to the decider about what you see, about where you think they should give a little bit of extra care, if it’s consensus, it’s easy, but when there’s not consensus deciding, okay, is it the best idea here if I have the whole team vote on which lens is most important?

Will that give the decider the sort of pause that they need to consider this? How do I make sure that the democracy of the team doesn’t outweigh the intuition of the decider? And this is an area where your judgment, your expertise, your experience, your gauge of human nature and interaction and what’s going on all become really important. It’s a very powerful moment. And it’s just potentially, I think, a super tool that you can use not only in the Foundation Sprint, but in any situation where people face a complex decision. And the stakes are pretty high for getting that decision right.

Douglas Ferguson:

You have a gift for simplifying complex decisions, whether it’s exploring these conflicting opinions or selecting what to prototype into these clear step-by-step recipes.

Jake Knapp:

Well, thank you.

Douglas Ferguson:

I’m super curious, what’s your secret for turning these tough, abstract decisions into straightforward processes anybody can follow?

Jake Knapp:

I was talking to my son, Luke, recently about, you know, life and careers and work and he was talking about there’s a piece of advice that folks sometimes give which is follow your bliss, and I am actually a bit of a skeptic of that advice. I think that following what’s completely your bliss is telling a startup founder to like, “Well just build whatever like sounds fun to you.” And that could work out you. There are certainly examples where that does work out, but it really only works out if there’s a market for your bliss.

And so I told him, I thought perhaps a different way of thinking about it is, you should be aware of your bliss, you should make time for your bliss to plug another book of mine. Your bliss may be a hobby, but you must find a way to become obsessed with the thing that you do. If you can become obsessed with it, if there’s enough interest and excitement that you can really, for the long haul, dig into this thing and be obsessed with getting it right, then that’s I think a more likely predictor of both your satisfaction and happiness as an individual and that your work will find a market of people, an audience of people.

That it’ll matter to people. And for better or for worse, I became obsessed with the beginnings of projects and those decisions that people made and I just can’t stop thinking about it. And it drives me nuts when I’m in a conversation and we start to make a decision and sometimes it’s me who’s screwing it up, but I can tell that in some way we’re screwing up the way where we’re processing it. We’re taking too long, we’re not considering enough options. It just feels like, “Oh man, something’s going wrong here.”

Maybe I’m not naturally even like the most decisive or naturally the most analytical or rational person, part of this has just been trying to decode what’s going on in my own brain and try to make those meetings and those moments go right. And I would have thought that I’d be done with it by now, but it just seems like I still am uncovering parts where I’m like, “Oh, I want to fix that too.” So I’m just obsessive and gosh, if it’s helpful for folks that’s fabulous because I at this point can’t stop.

Douglas Ferguson:

Amazing. I’ve got a few rapid fire ones here to end on, so here we go. Beyond the example in the book, have you ever used a funny or memorable eject lever message to carve out focus for a good emergency?

Jake Knapp:

I have migraine headaches and I don’t have them very bad compared to a lot of people who have them, but if you have migraines, you might know that there’s a pre migraine part and a post migraine part, they affect your whole body and your whole brain in a way that goes beyond the headache. And in fact, for me, often there is no headache. I’m really lucky in that way. There’s often no headache, but there’s still a mental fog that happens and body aches and I mean, it’s wild.

I may have overplayed the effect of the mental fog at times to buy myself time to think something through, to list out my options, analyze them, to perhaps work with folks. And that’s an eject lever that I have used from decisions in the past might, if you are talking to me and I need to make a decision about something and I say that I have a migraine now when I would need to get back to you in a couple of days, it might just be that I need time to think. And actually, now that I say it, I don’t know why I’m not just honest about that.

Douglas Ferguson:

Yeah. Just you can never confirm nor deny that you have a migraine. Amazing. Well, okay, this is a fun one. So you compare differentiation to pizza toppings, and if the founding hypothesis were a pizza, what are some essential ingredients that always belong and what are some questionable toppings that teams insist on including?

Jake Knapp:

Yeah. Well, I talk about it because differentiation is something that if you get it right, it’s still probably not going to be the thing for everybody. Not everybody agrees on the perfect pizza. So we talk about the iPhone as this product that’s such a huge success story. And yet lots of people choose not to get an iPhone, they get something else. And so pepperoni pizza is not for everybody. Some folks are like, “I need a different flavor.” And so part of differentiation is getting the ingredients right.

And when we talk about the founding hypothesis it’s if we solve this problem for this customer with this approach, then they’re going to choose it over this competitor because we’re going to be different in these ways. So you’ve got some variables there. The customer, the problem, the approach you’re taking, the competitors and the differentiators, and each of those ingredients they are important, but you might be wrong about them. So when you form your founding hypothesis, you might be sure that your customers have this problem.

And then you might start talking to customers and realize, “Man, the people we’re talking to, actually, they’re not the right people at all.” And so that’s almost like the cheese. That’s the thing that seems the most basic, well, who’s the customer? And you start talking to people and you’re like, “Oh man, these people are lactose intolerant.” Or these people they like feta, whatever. You’re off base with this thing that you wouldn’t even considering it. You’re just like, “Everybody loves mozzarella.” And well man, maybe they don’t or maybe your mozzarella is not good enough or whatever.

And so any one of those, actually, I can think of examples with any one where we’ve seen startups go out and realize, oh, the customer is right, but the problem, this is not a problem that’s a big enough deal for them. It’s not painful enough for them to warrant trying something new or we have the competition wrong. We thought it was this and actually it’s just that they’re doing nothing. They’re not aware of all these solutions that exist because they just really don’t care, again, which could be back to the problem’s not that important. The differentiators is one that I always harp on because it’s so commonly missed and it’s something you have to work at to get right. But any one of those things could be a bit off, which is why we test. That’s why we experiment.

Douglas Ferguson:

That’s why it’s a hypothesis.

Jake Knapp:

That’s why it’s a hypothesis. Exactly.

Douglas Ferguson:

If you could wave a magic wand and instantly grant every facilitator or startup founder one essential insight from Qlik, what would it be?

Jake Knapp:

I think that the most essential insight is you cannot take for granted the basics of your business, of your strategy, of what you’re doing. In a startup, in a big project, in any organization, even in things that we do in our lives, we very quickly become blind to the simple core underlying things. And we can very quickly forget that the most important thing for a startup for a big project is that in the end that people care about it, that it clicks, that it does the thing we hope it will do for people.

And it’s worth taking time to reexamine those basic obvious things, get them really crisp. And so if you’re a facilitator, you should never hesitate to ask the dumb questions. And this book is full of dumb questions that I was embarrassed to ask. And so I wrote a book and created a framework to help me ask those dumb questions. And there’s this set of dumb questions, but there are a lot of dumb questions out there that if you’re a facilitator you’re actually in a really special and unique situation where you can ask those.

You’re coming in as an outsider and you can say, “Hey, look, I know nothing. So could you explain that acronym you just used? Could you tell me why we’re doing this thing?” You can ask those almost rude basic questions. And I promise you, 80 to 100% of the people on the team who should know the answer to it, they’re going to thank you for asking those, for clarifying the basics. You should never be shy about asking the simplest questions. And it’s always wise to rewind and get those basic questions nailed first. The assumptions we make are often where we fail.

Douglas Ferguson:

It’s such a gift to a team when you can shine a light on some of those things that maybe they’ve been afraid to bring up because it’s like, “I think we’re supposed to have this figured out, but I don’t know if I want to admit that we’re so far off base here.”

Jake Knapp:

Yeah, absolutely. Absolutely. And there are just far too many situations where those oversights, not through any malice on anybody’s part or even really malpractice, it’s just our human nature that we’re like, “Okay, good, we know what we’re doing, let’s go.” And those oversights end up being the thing that makes it fail in the end. And what’s a bummer about that, I mean, sure, from a Machiavellian perspective as an investor or a capitalist perspective, I guess, I’m just hoping that if we get those things right, your business is more likely to succeed and if I’ve invested in your business, then I’m going to make money in the end so I’m very self-interested in getting this stuff right.

But it’s most costly in the wasted human energy and time that goes into things that people in the end don’t care about. And that is what’s the most frustrating to me, is seeing people pour their energy with the hope that it’s going to pay off. I’m putting all of this time in, but in the end it’s going to be worth it because we’re going to solve this problem for customers, and then in the end when people shrug, it’s just so demoralizing. You’ve lost all that effort. You can’t 100% solve that, but if we get the basics right and we experiment to prove to ourselves to every extent possible that they’re right we have a chance of saving a lot of human effort, and that is very worthwhile.

Douglas Ferguson:

Very well said, sir. And I think that brings us to our end. And I just want to say thanks for the conversation, Jake. It’s always a pleasure being with you, and I look forward to our next time.

Jake Knapp:

Always a pleasure to speak to you as well, Douglas. And listeners, if you made it this far, check out the clickbook.com and see what you think of the book. We’d love to hear what you think after giving it a read.

Douglas Ferguson:

Thanks for joining me for another episode of the Facilitation Lab Podcast. If you enjoyed the episode, please leave us a review and be sure to subscribe and receive updates when new episodes are released. We love listener tales and invite you to share your facilitation stories. Send them to us on LinkedIn or via email. If you want to know more, head over to our blog where I post weekly articles and resources about facilitation, team dynamics and collaboration, voltagecontrol.com.

The post Finding The Click appeared first on Voltage Control.

“You can talk the talk all you want, but the group is going to know if you’re not walking the walk. As the facilitator, you have to be the one that’s ready to lead in what you’re asking them to do.”- Caterina Rodriguez

In this episode of the Facilitation Lab podcast, host Douglas Ferguson converses with Caterina Rodriguez (Cat), a facilitator consultant and strategic leader at ADL. Cat shares her journey from anti-bias education to organizational effectiveness, emphasizing the importance of authentic connections in facilitation. She discusses the challenges of adopting a new facilitation style and highlights the transformative power of collaborative group experiences. Cat stresses the need for facilitators to embrace uncertainty and model genuine engagement, advocating for a method-agnostic approach. The episode underscores the value of building trust and fostering inclusive, change-ready cultures within organizations.

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About the Guest

Caterina Rodriguez is a facilitator, consultant, and strategic leader dedicated to helping organizations build inclusive, change-ready cultures. With a background in program and learning design, facilitation, and organizational change, Caterina specializes in designing experiences that foster collaboration, co-creation, and meaningful outcomes. As the Director of Strategic Initiatives & Continuous Learning at ADL, she leads learning and capacity-building initiatives to strengthen organizational effectiveness. In her consulting work, Caterina designs and facilitates experiences that foster collaboration, co-creation, and strategic alignment to help teams navigate complexity and drive lasting impact. From guiding executive teams through complex change to developing large-scale programs, facilitating high-stakes conversations, and equipping teams with facilitation tools and leadership skills, Caterina enables organizations to build capacity for alignment, collaboration, and long-term success.

About Voltage Control

Voltage Control is a facilitation academy that develops leaders through certifications, workshops, and organizational coaching focused on facilitation mastery, innovation, and play. Today’s leaders are confronted with unprecedented uncertainty and complex change. Navigating this uncertainty requires a systemic facilitative approach to gain clarity and chart pathways forward. We prepare today’s leaders for now and what’s next.

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Transcript

Douglas Ferguson:

Hi, I’m Douglas Ferguson. Welcome to the Facilitation Lab podcast where I speak with voltage control certification alumni and other facilitation experts about the remarkable impact they’re making.

We embrace a method-agnostic approach so you can enjoy a wide range of topics and perspectives as we examine all the nuances of enabling meaningful group experiences. This series is dedicated to helping you navigate the realities of facilitating collaboration, ensuring every session you lead becomes truly transformative.

Thanks so much for listening. If you’d like to join us for a live session sometime, you can join our facilitation lab community. It’s an ideal space to apply what you learn in the podcast in real time with peers. Sign up today at voltagecontrol.com/facilitation-lab.

And if you’d like to learn more about our 12-week facilitation certification program, you can read about it at voltagecontrol.com.

Today I’m with Caterina Rodriguez, a facilitator, consultant, and strategic leader dedicated to helping organizations build inclusive change ready cultures. Cat serves as the director of strategic initiatives and continuous learning at ADL, where she leads learning and capacity building initiatives to strengthen organizational effectiveness.

In her consulting work, Cat specializes in designing and facilitating experiences that foster collaboration, co-creation, and strategic alignment, helping teams navigate complexity and drive lasting change. Welcome to the show, Cat.

Caterina Rodriguez:

Thanks so much for having me, Douglas. Excited to be here.

Douglas Ferguson:

So great to have you. To get started, let’s hear a little bit about how you started your facilitation journey.

Caterina Rodriguez:

Yeah, so I’ll go back to right as I started working after I graduated grad school, and I had just started as a program manager at ADL. And I was in charge of both managing some of our anti-bias education programs locally, but I also would sometimes go out and facilitate them myself.

And that was the first time that I had ever facilitated, not presented, or given a training or a talk, where the majority of the program was actually focused on creating discussions, walking the groups through really interactive activities. And I remember getting onboarded to deliver these programs, and it blew my mind a little bit. I had never, not just not facilitated, I had never been in a session that was facilitated up to that point. Every experience I had had, had been very much kind of the talking at you, presenting at you style,

Douglas Ferguson:

What blew your mind the most?

Caterina Rodriguez:

Honestly, seeing the difference in the amount of engagement from participants, and the fact that by the end of the session, they had done just as much, if not actually a whole lot more talking than I had, and something inside of me clicked. I just went, that felt right. It wasn’t, I’m here to teach you what I know, but rather all of a sudden I kind of noticed this shift of, I’m here to help you uncover what you already know and what you’ve experienced, and then start to become a little bit more aware of, okay, then how do I continue growing from where I’m currently at?

And so all of a sudden it became less about me and more about the group that I was working with. And that felt super right, because I had never thought about learning being this co-creative process, versus the more traditional style of learning, which is more, there’s one or two people, right? They hold some kind of expertise, and you just get all the knowledge that you need from them.

But I think when it comes to anything like whether it’s, you know, anti-bias education at the time, or now a lot more, you know, learning and development or organizational effectiveness work that I do, a lot of that is really around the messiness of people. And so it’s really not nearly as effective to talk at people about that messiness rather than actually helping them explore that messiness, if that makes sense.

Douglas Ferguson:

It does. I want to come back to your point about it feeling right. When did you first notice that feeling? Was it when you were in the training, and learning these techniques, and how they were going to structure the time with students? Or was it when you were facilitating it for the first time? Or like when did you notice that?

Caterina Rodriguez:

Yeah, so during the onboarding when I was getting trained, I think it was just a whole lot of anxiety. So that was definitely not the moment that it felt right. It was just a totally new approach to me. So I was absorbing. And we had tons of space to practice, but I think that always an onboarding always feels kind of like, okay, well this is artificial, so of course it’s going to go in a nice way.

For me, it clicked the first time that I actually got out into the field, where I was working through my agenda with the students, and all of a sudden I noticed that it became a group conversation, and things were starting to surface that weren’t necessarily directly related to the question I asked, but rather things were building up and up and up and people were responding to what other people were saying, and digging a little bit deeper and asking questions of each other. And so for me, it was the first time that I actually got out on the field and worked with the group.

I’m painting a very idyllic picture. It did not go perfectly right at all, but just the drastic shift in experiencing that was really wild. And so after that first time I was hooked. I was super hungry to really start to take facilitation more of as a craft versus just, you know, this is just a particular style in which I deliver this specific program for this specific organization. And so I started to, kind of, start to pay attention to facilitation is something more than just how to do something, but rather a whole, you know, mindset shift, approach shift, externally. I hadn’t quite yet, because now in my current role, I’m fully internal at the time, right? I was still associating facilitation with this is how I work with external stakeholders. And it hadn’t quite sunk in that this is just in general an approach to working with people regardless of whether they’re on my team, outside of the organization, so on and so forth.

So yeah, I would say the first time I went out in the field was when it clicked, but it was also when I very quickly realized I had a whole lot more to learn and practice.

Douglas Ferguson:

Coming back to those feelings of anxiety during the training and prep, how much of this new way of working, or the mystery of like approaching training in this way, how much did that have an impact in the anxiety or the uncertainty?

Caterina Rodriguez:

I mean a whole lot, honestly. It really leans into all the skills that, I think traditionally they’re called soft skills, when honestly they’re just leadership skills, right? And so the unfamiliarity with facilitation as a style, as an approach, as a practice was a big part of it. Because it was two things that I was learning. It was the content and the kind of the subject matter piece of the programs while at the same time learning how to deliver it in an entirely different way.

And for me, the subject matter, that’s easy, right? You study, you learn it, you’re good. But learning an entirely different way to engage groups, that takes time to craft and to kind of find your authentic voice. Because that was another piece too, that because it was so new to me and I was immediately implementing it on the ground at the same time, I was still looking at some of the other facilitators I was working with because we always did it in a co-facilitation pair. And so, I was trying to pull from the best things that I was noticing, but I hadn’t quite found my own authentic facilitation style and voice. I was still mimicking for a long time.

Douglas Ferguson:

What helped you move past the mimicking? Were there steps that led to something that felt more authentic?

Caterina Rodriguez:

Yeah, honestly, a lot of trial and error, and this is going to sound really funny, trial and error with actual groups of participants. So one of the things that, you know, I’ll come back to that I so appreciate now about voltage controls or community of practice, but I didn’t have that back then. There were no spaces to practice, to unpack, to ask questions of facilitation as a practice.

I just got out there a lot in my role as a program manager. I didn’t necessarily have to be out in the field facilitating that much. We had a core group of independent contractors that we would deploy, but I liked getting out there. And so I would co-facilitate quite a bit.

And it was through a lot of trial and error and feeling and seeing the reactions of the groups to me, that kind of started to cue me in on that I wasn’t bringing my authentic self into it. And that is a very hard realization, all of a sudden, to notice that the group you’re working with is kind of almost calling your bluff a little bit.

I started to just kind of take a little more risks in terms of just showing up as myself. I wasn’t trying to be as gentle as maybe the facilitator that comes off as almost like a super caretaker. I wasn’t trying to be the most boisterous, like hilarious comedian in the room. I wasn’t trying to be the most elevated of subject matter experts. I just kind of showed up as Cat, and all of a sudden I started to realize that participants were responding to me entirely differently. They were starting to feel like they were making genuine connections with me. And I noticed that in the work itself, it started to lead to much more interesting conversations, because all of a sudden they noticed that I wasn’t performing. They noticed that I was just there to connect with them and help them connect with each other, if that makes sense.

Douglas Ferguson:

It does. And you know, it’s much easier for people to connect when we’re able to model what connection is like.

Caterina Rodriguez:

Definitely. That is, honestly, the biggest thing in facilitation across the board. Whether it was previously leading anti-bias education programs or now doing a lot of organizational effectiveness work, it is about authentic connection across the board, because that is going to be what kind of… You can say that you’ve designed a container or a space for people to come in and you know, build up that trust and do these things together.

But you can talk the talk all you want. The group is going to know if you’re not walking the walk, essentially. And I do think as the facilitator creating that container, you have to be the one that’s ready to lead in what you’re asking them to do, at the end of the day. So for me, modeling that connection is huge.

Douglas Ferguson:

You know, I was thinking about the comment you made earlier on the shift between anti-bias to org effectiveness, and I’m curious what led to that shift? What gave you the inspiration and confidence and what were the bricks that were laid to get you there?

Caterina Rodriguez:

So I had started to get a little bit involved with helping deliver our Train the Trainer, which is our internal onboarding program when we hire new staff or new independent contractors for our programming. And so I became part of the behind the scenes team that helps people learn about facilitation, and I absolutely loved it.

Quickly thereafter, I shifted from being on our regional team to our national education team, and that’s when I became the director of our anti-bias programs. And half of my job was around the program management piece, but the other half became very quickly a lot of this internal onboarding and capacity building for facilitating our programming. And that was my favorite part of the job. Like, I absolutely adored starting to work more internally to teach people about facilitation and create spaces for them to practice, start to bring to the team new designs and methods that were out there. Or in the anti-bias field, you’re leading really fraught conversations that have only gotten more polarized with time.

Starting to think about how do I help staff and contractors be able to lean into the inevitable conflict and uncertainty that’s going to come up in those spaces, with practices like how do we ask curious questions, how do we reframe, how do we actually throw it back to the group? And use the wisdom of the group, things like that to help the group probe deeper as opposed to constantly having them turn to you. Like you hold all the answers, so what do you think?

I fell in love with teaching people about facilitation. And that part of my portfolio, although it wasn’t my primary role at the time, kept expanding and expanding. So first it started with helping with the Train the Trainer. Then I started leading the Train the Trainer, Covid hit, and I completely redesigned it to be delivered virtually once Covid hit.

And that then kind of stepped me into a completely different echelon of thinking about facilitation, because I’ve been remote since 2018, but there wasn’t a lot of that being done virtually. I was still traveling to help lead Train the Trainers, and then Covid hit and I was like, oh, I now have to reimagine this craft that I absolutely am in love with, into doing it completely virtually. And that’s a whole different beast. That was a really, really fun process to basically have to redesign from the ground up, how do you train people on facilitation, which a lot of people have this concept, oh, you got to be in person and you do the cool things with the sticky notes on the wall, right? To at the time, not just going virtually, but teaching people how to be interactive on Zoom, and how do we do breakouts and this and that. So it took on a whole different technical meeting.

At the same time that I was redesigning this program, I was also having to teach myself a whole lot more about technology than I ever knew. And I’m very much a person that learns by doing. So it’s funny because at the time I look back and think about my biggest anxiety was not even around training facilitators, it was around the virtual piece. And now a majority of the facilitation I do is virtual. And that has started to feel a whole lot more natural to me, because there’s some interesting things around the virtual settings and dynamics that are at play or not at play. But all that to say, I think I started to, the biggest building block was starting to go from helping out with our Train the Trainer to leading it to then redesigning it.

Organically I just started to get more involved in kind of the learning and development side of things. So if someone in our department writes some part of our team released a new piece of content or updated one of our programs or things like that, I would often work with those stakeholders to think about, how do we bring that to our staff in a way that’s engaging and interactive. We don’t just sit them down for a 45-minute PD or professional development session, where we just talk at them and say, here’s the things we updated, or here’s the new information now go do, right? It would be okay, how do we think about you present bite-sized pieces of information and we have an experience, to experience the impact of the thing that we’re going to be asking them to then take to their stakeholders, to the schools, and the campuses, and the community organizations that they partner with on the ground across the regional offices.

So I slowly started to get more involved with the learning and development side of things. And that kind of just continued to grow until last, about almost a year ago now, I really shifted into a fully internal role and stepped away from my program director role where now I sit at this really cool intersection of learning and development program design and organizational effectiveness facilitation. And so it’s fun because I am still housed in my education department with a team that I adore, but I kind of almost act as a consultant to the other departments across the organization, where I basically bring them my expertise on facilitation to help them either deliver information to the organization or recreate their own programs where they’re engaging different stakeholders externally.

It’s been really neat to kind of become this internal, almost like a capability builder, where we’re really trying to help the folks across the organization engage whatever stakeholders they work with in much more effective and interesting ways.

Douglas Ferguson:

What’s been the reception across the organization to this kind of capacity building or even this consultative approach to where you’re providing these abilities? What have you been noticing as far as the reactions and how willing they are to embrace this as an alternative?

Caterina Rodriguez:

I think that at first, people were, no one was ever really resistant. It was more of like, I don’t know what to expect of this. So I think it was just more a little bit of uncertainty and curiosity, and also on my end too. So it’s a brand new role that has never existed, kind of building it as we go kind of deal. And so it also just required a lot of flexibility and nimbleness, to kind of see what comes of it.

As I’ve been working with teams, it’s been really fun because once we’re on the other side of it, they’re like, holy crap, that was really cool and really amazing. And once I’m on the other side of it, I’m like, holy crap, I had no idea that this is what you were doing. We always hear just very high level readouts from different departments. I mean, it’s an organization of I think about 500 people, so it’s not a small one.

And then there’s the other piece too, that in like any good nonprofit setting, we are all probably juggling two to three roles at once. And so, at the end of the day too, anyone is always really happy to get extra capacity or help to do something or help them think about something in a different way. So it’s been really neat.

It’s still a very new role, and we are still very much figuring out how does it show up in different spaces across ADL. But my favorite part of it is that it truly is like this internal consultant. So every project is different. It’s a different puzzle piece to solve, not just because it might be either a different team or different content. Sometimes it’s the same team, but because it’s more about enabling people to do their work better together, it just becomes a whole different beast, right? Like it’s not repetitive, it’s not monotonous. There’s always something new bubbling to the surface to work through or to think about or get curious about.

I would say that that’s been my favorite piece, is just that it is not boring. It’s never the same week to week, which I love. And it’s also one of the things that I love, I think, about consulting as well, is that every project is different because everyone has a different messy human challenge to solve.

Douglas Ferguson:

Yeah. Your point about there not being a lot of pushback and that it was people seeking more clarity or more certainty around what it is. I’d say that most of the time when I see pushback from individuals, it’s because they lack the clarity and certainty of what the thing is.

And so that might, how they show up for you as more curious versus more just blatantly pushing back, I think might be culturally or an impact of the culture there. But I’m just kind of curious what advice you would have for folks wanting to grow or offer up a service like this with inside of their company. Like what were some of the things that were successful or that you would just recommend people will tend to as they’re thinking about setting something like this up?

Caterina Rodriguez:

Yeah, definitely. Once, I’ll take one step back. I think a couple pieces. One is definitely the culture too, is I had been there at the time back then for already seven and a half years. So I’ve also built a ton of trust across the organization. And so I think, having those trusted relationships. Now, fast forwarding to your question about what are some tips or pieces of advice I may have for folks that want to do more of this internally, is first, especially if you’re not new to a place and you don’t have relationships developed, start building those relationships, not just within your team, but outside of them.

So join those optional calls that are hosted by other departments, or come to critical cross-departmental conversations and offer up ideas or offer up hard questions that we need to explore. And I would say probably one of the biggest things in my journey, where I noticed a really different shift in how our own leadership team started to look at the value that I brought to the organization, is when there have been really sticky challenges that have come up internally and there’s disagreement in how to solve for them, or how to move forward.

I went from being reflective and a little quieter and going like, okay, this is how we’re going to do things, regardless of what I think too. I started to become pretty vocal, but I did it in a very solutions oriented way. So I would step into these spaces with my peers or with leaders and say, you know, I’m not so sure about that and here’s why, but I’m curious though what you think about this instead. Or, you know, I don’t know if that would work or not. Honestly, here’s where my head was at instead. And like, let’s explore, you know, where the delta is and why we’re thinking about this differently. And I started to engage in conversations.

I think there’s an interesting balance to strike between just being a “yes” person and being, you know, just completely negative all the time about things that you’re not in a hundred percent alignment with. I guess what I’m trying to say is I really started to practice, I think one of my key mantras for myself and facilitation is commitment over consensus. So I started to unpack conversations and push back and suggest and recommend things, not because I wanted everyone to think the same way as me, or I felt like I should think the same as them, but because I wanted us to understand all the different perspectives where we might have room to learn from each other and then start to create this path forward that made sense for everyone, right?

Everyone may not be a hundred percent in alignment or agreement about everything, but we’re all understanding where we’re at, where we’re headed, why we’re doing it that way. And so now you really lowered the barrier of resistance and you have buy-in for people to commit to those decisions, to that strategic path forward. And so that would be, for me, probably one of the biggest pieces of advice is to start strategically inserting your voice into critical conversations, both inside and outside of your team.

And then the other piece too is just getting curious in your conversations with people. So asking a whole lot more questions than you are, kind of making statements at, or telling people things. I think that also really helped shape the ways in which people expected me to show up, where I think all of a sudden I start entering spaces and people almost expected me to want to probe deeper, have these discussions, or explore and answer questions.

So yeah, I would say build relationships outside of your team, not just inside of your team. Start to build that trust, show up to spaces and use your voice in them, but use it strategically, right? And model the kind of effective curiosity that leads people to start to behave in a way where they’re starting to ask more questions and eventually starting to see, you know, how do we commit, despite the fact that we’re not all agreeing. Because especially in large teams, you very rarely are going to have a hundred percent consensus on sticky challenges.

Douglas Ferguson:

You know, I think that that’s an interesting phenomenon, because you know, consensus means agreement. And we can decide as a group what agreement means for us, and rarely does unanimity serve us well, right? And I think a lot of people hear agreement and they hear consensus and they think unanimity, when really there might be other protocols that might serve us better.

Caterina Rodriguez:

Yeah, no, that’s honestly so true. And it’s been, I think when I work, whether it’s internally or consulting, when I work with groups of people where there’s been some kind of breakdown along the way, oftentimes it’s because people are expecting unanimity in order to move forward. And I think that’s one of the most critical pieces or differentiators of facilitation, is the fact that we are not actually trying to achieve unanimity versus right.

When you do more like a presentation, you know, a speaking engagement kind of deal, or you approach it more in that way of a trainer style of, I have the right way and I’m going to equip you with that one right way. I think that’s when you start to allow for a whole lot more of the gray instead of the black and white. And that’s when you start to see a whole lot more nuance. And I think that’s the biggest piece is that we need to get people outside of the binary thinking of everything is a yes or a no, and realize that oftentimes most things actually lie somewhere in between, and that it’s okay for them to be there.

Douglas Ferguson:

You know, coming back to your model, your advice of building relationships, crafting a perspective, and you know, speaking up, sharing that perspective, as well as being curious. If you think about it, those things all layer on each other pretty well because it’s hard to have a perspective if you haven’t gotten really curious and have a lot of understanding about how things work.

And then also, if you’re building up relationships and trust and getting to know folks through curious questions, then you start to understand their perspectives and you can become an advocate for their perspectives as well. Maybe even elevate them at times. So you know, it’s interesting, those things you laid out all kind of feed into each other, and if you use them together, they’re kind of self-reinforcing versus kind of independent pillars.

Caterina Rodriguez:

A thousand percent. And honestly, when you use them all together too, you start to realize that you become very well aware of people’s motivations in the room, even though they may not know each other. So because you’ve gotten really curious and you’ve built these relationships, and you start to shut them up to these spaces and lead in ways that engage rather than dictate, all of a sudden, I know that this person who constantly pushes back is because they are fearful that any change is going to be at the detriment of our impact with our stakeholders, right? Or I know that this person is consistently quiet and doesn’t engage, not because they’re uninterested, but because oftentimes they feel like they don’t even have the space to think and process. And so they just kind of sit back trying to catch up on everything that’s happened.

And all of a sudden you start to, as you build these relationships, you start to be able to understand a lot of the personalities that come into the space and their motivations behind it. And so you’re able to, it’s kind of like you said, as you build these relationships, as you lean into these spaces more, and you build this trust, all of a sudden I’m able to follow up with even more curiosity, but that’s tailored at helping each other see these different motivations and realizing we’re all actually committed to the same thing. We’re just coming at it from very different places. And none of those places are right or wrong, they just are.

And it’s very similar to in consulting practices where I may only work with a group for a very short period of time, or sometimes it’s like a one and done kind of deal. And even though I may not have the time to build relationships with everyone that’s going to be in the space, because of my experiences and practices internally, I’ve become really attuned to the fact that I’m not making assumptions about anybody. And so I’m going to get really curious, right? If something comes up in the room, if there’s some kind of reaction, or some kind of interesting statement or question or a non-reaction, I’ll get really curious and I’ll dig into it and I’ll ask that question.

Because I think that when people start to see that you are not just trying to take them through a process, but actually you’re taking the time to see them as people, they become a whole lot more willing to enter that space and to engage in that space. I think it honestly is about the fact that a lot of people aren’t used to the practice of being seen in a professional setting, right? It’s like, I’m heard, or I hear you, and that’s it. But to actually see someone and go beyond just kind of the surface level, we’re here to achieve this outcome and this is how we’re going to get there, versus, oh, but you may or may not be ready to completely go all that way because there’s something unresolved here, right?

It forces you to have to see people in their wholeness and not ask them to check themselves at the door, right? I think that’s the other big piece in professional settings is we’re expecting people to leave 75% of themselves at the door. You just bring like your brain with you to professionally engage versus actually know the space is meant for you to step inside of it fully and whatever surfaces is part of the process. I don’t expect you to check your emotions at the door. I don’t expect you to keep your disagreements to yourself. I don’t expect you to keep your fear or anxiety about what might be changing in the space to yourself.

I think when you invite people wholly, you start to see that they’re engaging wholly. But without that invitation, it’s not the norm. It’s not how we’ve created spaces in a professional setting before. And for me, that’s been one of the biggest pieces in being very intentional when I work with groups as a consultant versus internally, because like I said, internally have those relationships built. So when it’s groups that I don’t have those relationships with, how do I off the bat based off of my design, so how I’m designing the experience, how I think about the container I’m building, design becomes a whole lot more intentional there. And the decisions that I make around it before I even step in the door or in the virtual Zoom room.

Douglas Ferguson:

It’s all making me think about a comment you made earlier about the mindset shift versus just thinking about facilitation through techniques. And so, that’s making me more curious about that. What do these mindset shifts look like for you? What do you think is most important to acknowledge there?

Caterina Rodriguez:

Yeah, the biggest shift for me was, if I’m stepping into a space as a facilitator, right? Not a trainer, not a speaker, as a facilitator, I don’t have to hold all the answers. And in fact, I shouldn’t be the one holding all the answers.

And that was a huge shift for me for a couple of reasons. I think internally, one, it takes the pressure off. I think there’s a lot of fear around saying to someone, I don’t know, I’m curious what you all think about that instead, right? I almost think that people see that as a kind of failure instead of actually using that as a way to get curious and empower other people to be the experts of their own work or experiences.

So for me, it actually became way less high stakes when I didn’t feel like I had to have all the answers. But the other piece too is, it models for groups, the idea that if I don’t have all the answers, then you know, there’s a reason why we’re here as a group and I can start to rely on the wisdom of the group. I always love to say the wisdom of the group is great. It’s better than just myself.

That’s a big one. A big mindset shift was that, you know, I’m here to be a guide. I’m not here to be the expert. And then another big mindset shift is, you know, the fact that curiosity only leads to more curiosity. I think that, when I first started facilitating, I was very, you know, by the book of the activities or the methods that I was doing, it’s like, okay, so in this part it says, I do this for five minutes and then I ask these three questions and then we move on. It was very prescriptive.

And then as I started to shift in my entire mindset about facilitation, I became way less attentive to the steps and much more attentive to what was happening in the space, what was emerging. And so what that might have looked like is, yeah, I took them through these steps and I’m actually just going to ask him what’s coming up? And then I’m just going to start to riff off of the comments that come up. All of a sudden it becomes way less prescriptive, way less of a performance, and it becomes much more of a conversation.

So I think that’s the other piece too, is that I’m there to have and guide conversations. You know, I’m there to ask questions that help lead them to their own answers. I am there to help them work through the messiness that humans bring into a space versus, you know, my main goal is not to be an expert at what you all are doing.

So that’s kind of the other big shift as a facilitator, is that all of a sudden I, it’s not that I had to be a subject matter expert, it’s that I had to be almost like a gathering expert, if that makes sense. You know, it’s been fun because in my consulting work, there’s been some projects I’ve done where, and groups I’ve worked before. I’m like, I know nothing, absolutely nothing about what you do, but what I do know is people and how people work or don’t work when you bring them together into groups. That’s been another big shift, is shifting away from being a subject matter expert to really being kind of this, almost a human centered gatherer, if that makes sense.

Douglas Ferguson:

It absolutely makes sense. And the shift from technique to people is certainly, I think a growth edge, the maturity moment for facilitators. And some people don’t get out of it, some people stay in that mode of, I’ve got the tool and I’m going to go around looking for opportunities for this tool. And then it typically goes, I’ve got a tool, and then I’ve got a toolkit of tools, and then that longing for more, like how can I be more connected? How can I drive deeper outcomes?

And sometimes I see people coming to those conclusions when the tools fail them, when there’s a great laid plan and things go a little wrong. Or maybe they barely land the plane, but they feel like they were lucky to do so. And then reflecting, they think there’s something more here. So I’m curious, what do you think propelled you on this journey of making this shift from being about the process or the tools to being about the people, or looking for this meta broader, more holistic kind of look?

Caterina Rodriguez:

So I think obviously in addition to kind of just going out there, testing things, some going well, some going not great, learning from it, this is actually really taking me back to before I even got into this space, before I started at ADL, before even I was doing social work operations work, I actually got my start in the theological space. So I was actually training to be a hospital chaplain. And there is nothing certain about theology. There is nothing certain about chaplaincy. In fact, the only certainty is uncertainty, right? And the only ways in which you really engage with people are around big questions that have no answers.

And so it was interesting because it’s almost like there were these two separate sides to me, right? It was like the piece around like what I know and the piece around what I practice. And what I knew I was very comfortable with being in the messy uncertainty, but professionally, that was not the way that I was trained to practice. By the time that I got to ADL and the time that I have been a program manager and all these things, I feel like in professional settings, we’re very much trained to lean into the certainties and keep things as binary as possible.

I remember that at a certain point, right as I was facilitating and like I said, trying things, testing things out, learning from those experiments and refining, I started to also realize that I had kind of compartmentalized that side of myself because it almost felt like the things that I was practicing and the habits that I had formed in my theological practice or in my chaplaincy practice, were almost not at all something of value to my professional career. It was, and I think that actually came about because once I shifted, a lot of people would ask me, oh, so like, do you ever even use that? Like, I’m sure you don’t.

And it’s almost like, you know, people react to something weirdly enough that all of a sudden it makes you start to question, oh, so is that like a weird thing, I guess that’s not relevant, you know, and maybe I should kind of like table that or felt that, you know, it’s almost like you want to hide that part of yourself because it almost makes you an “other.” And it was really interesting that fast forwarding and getting more and more into facilitation, which meant I was getting more and more back into, I am literally choosing to stand in the messiest part of human collaboration as a facilitator.

It started to bring back the, almost the purposeness that I felt, around what was at the heart of chaplaincy, but in a very different way. And so all of a sudden I found it was, it was like a light bulb moment where I was like, that’s, that’s how this connects to this, because I have stood in the uncertainty. In fact, that’s all that I ever used to know.

And that’s where I saw that people needed me most, not me as Cat, but me as like what I brought to the space and how I might have guided them through that moment. And that realization is, I think what really ultimately propelled me from being practice focused to being people focused. And my facilitation is kind of bringing that part of myself back, that I had really hit and then compartmentalize like really deeply in a professional sense.

Douglas Ferguson:

So Cat, I think that takes us to a stopping point, because we’re nearing our end of our time here together. And I’d like to give you an opportunity to leave our listeners with a final thought.

Caterina Rodriguez:

My final thought, I would say, is to take the time to not just invite people, but expect people. So what I mean by that is if you are a person that works with groups in any way, right? Whether it’s you call yourself a facilitator, you call yourself a manager, you call yourself a cross collaborator, whatever it may be, whether it’s internal or in a consulting capacity, do not invite people into these kinds of spaces unless you’re ready to actually fully engage with people and their wholeness. There’s nothing more frustrating than being told, I want to invite you in, but I don’t want to see or hear you, or I don’t want to see or hear those parts of you.

What I would say is lean into the uncertainty and the messiness of what it means to be human and collaborate humanly. Because when you take the human piece out of it, all you have left is empty process, if that makes sense. And that’s when you get people who are not connecting, who are not committing, who also are just not included. I would tell people that the only certainty of facilitation is uncertainty. The only certainty of working with people is that they’re going to be messy and unpredictable. And as facilitators, we have a very unique opportunity to be able to step into those moments that no one else would, and help make some magic happen.

Douglas Ferguson:

I love that. And I think one thing to remind folks of is that in order to do this, you have to have some hard conversations about what makes you as a person uncomfortable.

Caterina Rodriguez:

Oh, yeah. And that all starts with you, right? So if you are not keenly aware of what makes you uncomfortable and how you move through that, you’re not going to be able to do that for other people. It’s kind of almost like the mantra of, you can’t fill someone else’s cup before you fill your own, right? Or else you’re trying to pour from an empty cup or the airplane thing of like before you try and help someone with their own oxygen mask, put it on yourself. It’s the same thing with facilitation. If you have not done the work for yourself, you are not going to be prepared to do it for other people,

Douglas Ferguson:

Or you might dismiss or ignore someone that you know is going to behave in a way that makes you feel uncomfortable or you find challenging. So you just find ways of engineering your process to avoid them.

Caterina Rodriguez:

Yeah, that’s so true. That’s the other thing about, there is such a thing as over-engineering, and it happens often in facilitation. And I think it happens because people are afraid of conflict, they’re afraid of tension, and oftentimes it’s in that conflict and tension that you’ll actually find the right path forward. Thinking about as conflict and tension almost being kind of your responsibility to actually tend to, versus something to ignore or dismiss or try to avoid.

And I think people will not be able to do that unless they see you model it first. I think that’s the other piece too, is as facilitators, we have to, like I said earlier, we truly have to be willing to model, to walk the walk. And so that’s the other piece around facilitation, is that there really is no destination point. It is truly an ongoing growth journey. There is no point in which I say, I’ve learned all the skills, I’ve learned all the methods. Every time that I facilitate, I’m learning something new. I’m taking questions back with me, and I am seeking out more wisdom from others, which is, I think the other piece too, that I want to leave people with is, if you are in this field of facilitation, find a community of facilitators to plug into.

Because there’s that really old proverb that goes, how does it go? It goes, if you want to go fast, go alone. If you want to go far, go together. And facilitation is definitely a craft in which you cannot go far without going together. It takes all types and it takes all kinds. And once groups see that, you embody that, they’ll understand that for themselves, and they’ll be able to start to work with people that think differently and show up differently from them. Don’t just invite people, expect people. Expect them in their messy wholeness.

Douglas Ferguson:

Amazing. Thank you so much, Cat. It’s been a pleasure chatting with you. I look forward to chatting again sometime soon.

Caterina Rodriguez:

Thank you so much, Douglas. It was awesome to be here. And yeah, look forward to many more chats to come.

Douglas Ferguson:

Thanks for joining me for another episode of The Facilitation Lab podcast. If you enjoyed the episode, please leave us a review and be sure to subscribe and receive updates when new episodes are released.

We love listener tales and invite you to share your facilitation stories. Send them to us on LinkedIn or via email. If you want to know more, head over to our blog where I post weekly articles and resources about facilitation, team dynamics, and collaboration, voltagecontrol.com.

The post The Greatest Shift appeared first on Voltage Control.

“I saw her facilitate and I thought, “Wow, she’s really drawing things out of the group instead of telling them what to do.” That was so powerful, and I thought to myself, “I want to do that. I want to be able to do that type of work someday.”- Dr. Karyn Edwards, PCC

In this episode of the Facilitation Lab podcast, host Douglas Ferguson converses with Dr. Karyn Edwards, an organizational psychologist and executive coach. Dr. Edwards shares her journey into facilitation and leadership, starting at Carlson Wagonlit Travel. She highlights the influence of her mentor, Julianne Wiese, and discusses overcoming imposter syndrome and challenges in leadership roles. The episode delves into the importance of “power skills” like emotional intelligence and adaptability. Dr. Edwards also talks about her current work, including writing for the Association for Training and Development and exploring organizational culture change programs. The episode underscores the transformative power of coaching.

Show Highlights

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About the Guest

Dr. Karyn Edwards, PCC is the founder and CEO of Abloom Coaching. In her work, she takes an evidence-based approach to bringing professional coaching and personal development to leaders so they can take control of their future. The work that she does is rooted in her experience working in organizations for 25+ years as a senior leader with the majority of that time in the talent management arena. She has a solid understanding of what leaders experience and what organizations are looking for in their top leaders.

Karyn earned a Ph.D. in industrial and organizational psychology, a master’s degree in organizational management, and certificates in business process improvement and professional and executive coaching. Karyn is certified in PROSCI’s model as a change practitioner and has supported the process of change management for many years in the roles she has held. Karyn is a member of the APA and of the Society of Psychologists in Leadership. As a speaker and expert facilitator, Karyn motivates organizations and individuals by focusing on leadership essentials, powerful storytelling, and practical strategies. Karyn regularly speaks at industry conferences and as a keynote for organizations. Karyn is a trusted advisor who connects the dots to help leaders and organizations meet the current challenges and those that lie ahead.

About Voltage Control

Voltage Control is a facilitation academy that develops leaders through certifications, workshops, and organizational coaching focused on facilitation mastery, innovation, and play. Today’s leaders are confronted with unprecedented uncertainty and complex change. Navigating this uncertainty requires a systemic facilitative approach to gain clarity and chart pathways forward. We prepare today’s leaders for now and what’s next.

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Transcript

Douglas:

Hi, I’m Douglas Ferguson. Welcome to the Facilitation Lab podcast, where I speak with Voltage Control certification alumni and other facilitation experts about the remarkable impact they’re making. We embrace a method agnostic approach so you can enjoy a wide range of topics and perspectives as we examine all the nuances of enabling meaningful group experiences. This series is dedicated to helping you navigate the realities of facilitating collaboration, ensuring every session you lead becomes truly transformative. Thanks so much for listening.

If you’d like to join us for a live session sometime, you can join our Facilitation Lab Community. It’s an ideal space to apply what you learn in the podcast in real time with peers. Sign up today at voltagecontrol.com/facilitation-lab. And if you’d like to learn more about our 12-week Facilitation Certification program, you can read about it at voltagecontrol.com. Today, I’m with Dr. Karyn Edwards from a Abloom Consulting, where she supports leaders and organizations as an organizational psychologist, executive coach, and leadership development expert. Welcome to the show, Karyn.

Karyn:

Thanks for having me, Douglas. I’m really excited to be here.

Douglas:

Yes. Fantastic to chat. It’s been a minute since we had a moment to sit down and talk about facilitation and coaching, and all the wonderful things that you do.

Karyn:

Yeah. It’s one of my favorite topics to talk about, so thanks for having me.

Douglas:

Yeah, absolutely. Well, let’s get into it. So, let’s start off with how you got your start. Could you take us back to that moment at Carlson Wagonlit Travel, where you first saw Facilitation in action? Gosh, am I remembering, was it Julianne Wiese?

Karyn:

Yeah., so I worked for Carlson Wagonlit. So, it’s a French company, part of it. So, it looks like Wagonlit, but it’s Wagonlit. I worked there for a long time and I met Julianne Wiese. Gosh, she was part of a merger that the organization did, one of many. And I was in a session that she was facilitating, and I thought I had done technical training for a long time. I actually started off in banking, was a bank teller during college, and then I started training for the bank. And so, I had done all this regulation and technical, how to use a computer and there’s technology systems.

But I saw her facilitate and I thought, wow, she’s really drawing things out of the group, that instead of telling them what to do, that I thought was so powerful. And I thought to myself, I want to do that. I want to be able to do that type of work someday. And she was really a role model for me. And actually, we’re still good friends to this day, so we’re actually colleagues now. So, she was a huge part of my career development.

Douglas:

Did you ever get to collaborate with her on designs or sessions before?

Karyn:

Oh, yeah. Yeah. Well, not in that job, which was funny. So, I left that role and I went to go work for a big utility here where I live in Arizona. And when I got into a leadership role, I called her because she was a coach. And so, she actually supported me as a leader, as I was learning how to do some transitions, and figuring out how do you get along with people and all that fun stuff. And then the present day, she actually helped me figure out that as I was deciding what I wanted to do next, what was my next act after working at Corporate America for 30 years. I got this PhD and she said, “I feel like you just really could do this on your own and you’d be great.” And she’s a super encouraging person, so she’s played a lot of roles in my career trajectory. She’s listening, shout out, because she’s an amazing coach and amazing person, too.

Douglas:

That’s fantastic. Isn’t it great to have those folks from time to time to just push you a little bit, push you out of the nest a little?

Karyn:

Totally. Yeah. She had to drag me out of the nest, but she did it.

Douglas:

So, you mentioned a moment there when her memory came back to you when you were finding yourself in that new leadership position. What was it like for you when you had that opportunity to step into leadership? What were some of the things you were noticing and feeling as that was fresh and new for you?

Karyn:

Yeah. So, I had been in leadership for a while. When I took that job, I had led people in different types of roles and different organizations and things like that. But what was different about that job is it wasn’t in my area of expertise. So, I had shifted. They asked me to shift. They were sort of doing leadership rotations out from a development role and into an operations role. And it was in a call center and it was customer service. And I was working with a lot of frontline leaders and just finding myself as a duck out of water, so to speak on, how do I motivate people? Because most of the time I was working with people that were trying to learn a job and they already had internal motivation. These folks already had their job, and didn’t necessarily need me to do their job and already knew what they were doing.

So, it was just a completely different experience. And I found myself kind of rudderless, I think as we were talking earlier about some things. And just sort of flailing about, trying to figure out what’s right and how do I empower people. I had some natural abilities, in terms of getting people to talk with me and that type of thing. But how do you lead people when you don’t even know what they do? How do you lead people when you’re not the expert at the thing? And so, it was a very unsettling experience. And so, I reached out to her and said, “Hey, I know you’re not only a great facilitator, but also a coach. And I could really use some help figuring out how do I navigate this space that I’m in.”

Douglas:

Yeah. So, what was the unlock for you that really brought things into focus, the rudder, so to speak?

Karyn:

Yeah. So, at the time I was having just this feeling of I didn’t know what I was doing. Sort of this imposter syndrome feeling of, pretty soon people thought I was going to be great at this job and now they’re going to find out that I don’t really have any idea what I’m doing. And so, working with her… And I’ve learned this too as a coach over time, is that it’s not so much about what people know technically about their job. It’s how do you work with other people. That’s really what at the end of the day is what trips up most people in leadership roles. So, they used to call them soft skills and I call them power skills. It’s all these skills of how do you appreciate, how do you get along with other people? How do you maximize their potential and basically get out of their way?

And so, she really helped me with really overcoming that imposter syndrome piece. And it’s funny, I just took a session the other day on the same topic. And it’s something like 70% of people experienced this at some point, so it’s very common. But at the time I didn’t know that. I thought I was the only one that was thinking that I was feeling that way. And so, that was a big rudder establishing, putting the rudder back in the water, so to speak, of, okay, you don’t have to know what they do. What you have to do is help them figure out where we’re headed and then how they can help us get there. And so, for me, that was sort of a light bulb moment.

Douglas:

Were there any specific techniques or tools, or even just things that clicked as you were starting to put that into practice?

Karyn:

I think watching people do what they do, and getting out of their way, and realizing that the solutions that they came up with were way better than what I would’ve ever thought of because they know what they’re doing. And that my job was to set a vision of where we’re headed. It wasn’t to be in their day to day or tell them how to do everything. Now, it’s not to say that there weren’t issues that came up from time to time that were in the weeds and they would ask me for help or that type of thing. But when I think of where I spent the majority of my time, it was on what are we doing next, not what we’re doing right now. And so, I think that’s a distinguishing piece as well of what I learned in that job.

Douglas:

At what point did you start to develop your experience in organizational psychology?

Karyn:

So, it was in the same role that I was talking about earlier. And I decided to go back to school and get a doctorate, because it’s pretty common in my field to get a doctorate. And around that time, as I was working on my doctorate, I was thinking, and so was the company, how are we going to use somebody with a PhD? And at first I was insulted. I was like, well, gosh, there’s a lot of things you can use someone for. But I’m not really an academic. I’m more of a practitioner style. And so, I decided to switch jobs and I wound up moving over to Choice Hotels. And in that position, I really got the opportunity to take all these things that I had learned plus all this experience, and put them all together and help with things like establishing leadership development programs, and doing succession planning, and coaching people internally within the organization.

I didn’t have the coaching credential that I do now at that time, but I was doing a combination of coaching, and consulting, and helping people figure out… And I really felt a natural attraction to that part of my work the most and really enjoyed it. And so, IO psychology or industrial organizational psychology is the study of people in the workplace. And it has a lot of different facets to it. There’s some parts around assessing leaders, there’s parts around how organizations are structured to make them successful. And the part that I gravitate towards is around leaders and leadership effectiveness overall.

Douglas:

And in your doctorate, was there a particular area of focus in your research?

Karyn:

Yeah. So, my dissertation was on the leadership style that leaders have and its impact on employee engagement. So, that was the overall, the 300-page document that you can go out and read if you want to. But Choice, I’m really grateful to them because they let me do the research at the company, which in an academic setting is very unusual, because a lot of research is done on college students. And they’re not necessarily representative of leaders and organizations who’ve been in their jobs for 10 or 20 years, so it was really nice that I got to do that internally. And the research that I found was that leaders who are servant leaders really have the biggest impact in terms of employee engagement. And so, that premise in terms of the different types of leadership was one of the findings, so kind of interesting.

Douglas:

Yeah. Were there any things that really surprised you or caught you off guard as you were conducting your research?

Karyn:

I guess how many people were interested in helping me. So, I put out a survey in the organization and asked people to identify their current leader’s leadership style based on some definitions, that we had three different definitions. So, one was the servant leader approach. The second was, I guess I’ll call it a line manager style. I’m not giving the academic terms, but somebody who is in the day-to-day, giving direction, constant. And then their last one is these hands-off leaders that maybe think they’re giving a lot of autonomy, but they’re really removed and distance from the people that report to them.

And the servant leader was the most effective leader. The distance leader was the least effective leader. And the people in the middle get some successes, but others don’t appreciate that style as much. So, anyway, I guess, how many people completed the survey of a 2,000 person at the time organization? About 900 people completed the survey, which is a pretty good survey response.

Douglas:

Oh, wow.

Karyn:

Yeah. So, I was really appreciative. And like I said, I’ll always be grateful to that group for helping me out with that.

Douglas:

Yeah. That’s super cool, that not only were receptive to you doing the work, but then also supportive of the research and the degree as well.

Karyn:

Yeah. I remember when I went to one of the town halls after I had finished my program, and I was speaking about some business topic and I just stopped for a second. I said, “Hey, I just wanted to let you know you can now call me Dr. K, because I finished my doctor.” And I got this huge standing ovation, which was again one of those moments where I was like, wow. I think always appreciating there’s so many people that want to help out there, and sometimes you just have to ask.

Douglas:

Yeah, no doubt. It’s interesting that I feel like so many surveys are like self-assessment kind of surveys, or they take some sort of long evaluation and then it puts them in a bucket. Interesting that your approach was having the direct reports categorize their leaders. And I guess I’m curious, what were some of the qualities that people would use to distinguish between someone who’s more directive versus someone that’s more servant leader? Because the off hands is like, that’s kind of a very clear bucket. They’re just not present. But there’s some subtle differences I think, between the other two or there could be on perception. And so, I’m curious, what are some of those qualifiers that direct reports were latching onto, ways that they were differentiating?

Karyn:

Yeah. Well, what’s interesting, in the research, we gave them very specific academic definitions that are part of a leadership model. So, they didn’t really have a lot of latitude to give us like, “Hey, this leader has these certain traits.” But what we were able to tie it to was, once we had… We had the list of leaders in the organization, we had the people who responded, and then what we were able to do is look at the engagement scores for the organization of those leaders. And to see if there’s a correlation between, hey, this person’s been described by the majority of their team, that they’re a servant leader. And oh, let’s take a look at their engagement score and their engagement score correlated. And same thing with the hands-off leaders. Their engagement scores were lower in the organization’s results. And so, it was just really interesting to see them define it and then watch it show up in a completely different survey that another organization put out. And just correlate those two things together was fascinating.

Douglas:

Yeah. It’s hard to ignore when there’s definitive clusters. It’s like, okay, well, that’s there and what kind of meaning are we going to apply to it? So, in your mind, I guess for the listener, what are some of those qualities, or how do y’all define those academic definitions for the directive type leader versus the more servant leader?

Karyn:

Yeah. So, depending on which research you read and different models, some of these models have been in place for a long time. And when we’re doing a PhD, you have to lean on more academic definitions in order to get through that process. But I would say in practical terms today, what a servant leader is, is somebody who has the ability to put their own interests behind that of the person that they’re trying to help. And so, it’s a little bit of a ego definition, too, where you sort of have to say, “Yeah, I’m the leader, but my job isn’t to be the one to take all the credit or to stand out. But my recognition is actually going to come because of the way in which I support my team and the work that gets done through my team, versus the work that I do as an individual.”

And I think that’s one of the biggest distinguishing factors of people that move up successfully in organizations, is they understand that switch that you have to make when you go into senior leadership. So, you’re not getting the work done through your own self work that you do, but you’re getting work done through the people that work for you. And it’s a hard transition to make, because all through your career, all the way up, up until that point, you’ve been rewarded and validated for the things that you’ve done versus other people around you, or maybe you’ve been part of a team or something like that. But to actually have the recognition given to you based on how effective you are at helping other people is quite different and quite vulnerable. It’s a vulnerable position to be in.

Douglas:

Yeah. And are you finding most of your coaching clients are in this moment of transition where they’re needing to redefine their leadership style?

Karyn:

Yeah. I would say most of my clients are in some moment of transition. They’re either moving from a senior level position into an executive team, or they’re already an executive, and now they’re… The world is changing so rapidly that they’re finding themselves in, I don’t know what the right word is, complexities that they have never experienced before. And so, even though they’ve been an executive before, they’re now experiencing that imposter syndrome that we talked about earlier for themselves, because it’s untested, it’s net new challenges that have not been present. Like AI for most organizations is net new. There’s nothing like it that’s ever been before and it’s continually evolving. And there’s sometimes struggling with, “Okay, how do I integrate this new thing? And how do I show up as a leader while I’m leading all these people through this significant processes and times of change?”

Douglas:

What’s the most common transition? It sounds like, ultimately, you’re trying to help people get to that servant leader mindset or from that frame of reference. What sorts of positions are they? Are they exhibiting those behaviors but needing to refine them? Are they more stuck in the declarative type of leadership or hands-off? Or what are you finding that’s the most common transition folks go through?

Karyn:

That’s a good question. I think the common thing, if I were to boil it down, is transition. So, for some people, it can be being promoted and their scope is expanding. For other people, there’s something that’s been observed or noticed that they really need to change in order to be effective. And they have a blind spot and they’re not seeing it, but they need to transition in terms of behavior. Other people are buying a business or starting a business and they’re trying to figure out, “I used to work for a company and now I’m an entrepreneur.” And those are pretty significant transitions. Some people I’ve been working with are thinking about retirement. And okay, so, how do I get out of this identity? And maybe that’s the word, Douglas, is it’s an identity shift from, “Hey, I’m this person at work and then now what? Now that I’m not going to be working anymore or working in a traditional sense, what’s my identity?” So, a lot of work is around that concept of identity.

Douglas:

Yeah. You mentioned transitions. And anytime folks are changing or going through some kind of transition, identity is such a core part of that. The story I like to tell in regards to this is when so many companies were going through cloud migrations, digital transformations, there’s so many roles that had to shift. You were a sysadmin at a company that had a lot of servers inside of a data center. Now they’re migrating everything to the cloud. It doesn’t mean you don’t have a job at that company. But if you only think of yourself as a sysadmin, it’s going to be really difficult. And so, a big part of change is that identity component.

Karyn:

Absolutely. Yeah. And it’s hard. I mean, I think we all have this sort of self-awareness and self-perception of who we are and how we operate within what we know, what we’re experts in. And then somebody comes along and rattles that cage or puts a big change in place. I’ve worked in a couple organizations that have gone from waterfall to agile, and just mind-bending to people to have to work in these short sprints. And their jobs were completely changed in terms of how they operated. And that’s hard, because there’s the brain. A lot of neuroscience stuff here, too. We like to be able to predict what’s coming next.

Douglas:

Certainty.

Karyn:

And when that gets interrupted, it’s like you can go into the fight, flight, freeze mode of I don’t know what to do. And that’s where, as a coach, it can also be helpful to help people recognize, through either helping them just through the questioning process of what I call non-directive coaching. And actually comes from Clare Norman and her work. It’s called The Transformational Coach. And that process of, hey, you know the answer. It’s within you. We just got to clear all this clutter out that’s getting in the way of your clear thought process because you’re under stress.

And so, the other thing I like to talk about is we are both thinking creatures, but we also have chemistry going on in our body at the same time. So, when we have stress responses, your brain actually doesn’t work the way that it should. So, if you’re getting all these micro stressors all day long of, “Oh, my gosh, I don’t know what I’m doing. Oh, my gosh, they changed this again and ugh, I don’t like that.” Then you’re getting a lot of cortisol. Cortisol interferes with your ability to use your prefrontal cortex, and your center of clear and logical thinking is diminished. And so, as a coach, I also help people recognize these patterns that we get into of stress response. And then the third thing that I do is I use assessments to help them understand how they’re wired, because we all come into the world with certain personality traits and then we get raised in certain ways.

And so, the nature-nurture debate has been solved. It’s both. And then when you get into the workplace, you’ve made all of these compensatory strategies to be able to function as a leader. And some of those have worked. And now that you’re ascending into a new scope or a broader team, or a different job, some of those strategies all of a sudden aren’t working for you anymore. And you got to figure out new strategies. And so, working with someone to help think about all of that and then figure out what’s right for you and how do you want to show up, but with the fundamental belief that you are whole and capable and competent. And we all need sometimes for somebody to listen and then help us figure out where we go next. And I love doing that. It’s my favorite part of my job.

Douglas:

Yeah. So, when you think about these transitions and helping individuals work through it, even mentioned the agile transformation, similar to the cloud example I gave. People are having to go through identity shifts. Do you often find that when you’re doing the one-on-one coaching that opens up needs and conversations at the team level? So, in addition to one-on-one, it’s one to many kinds of engagements to help broader organizations start to grapple some of these transitions?

Karyn:

Yeah, absolutely. A lot of times in my work… And I just did the talk at the Voltage Control Summit. So, that was exciting to talk about how executive coaching concepts can be utilized in facilitation. So, oftentimes, I’ll work with an executive or a leader and they’ll say, “Hey, this is great.” And also, my team, they’re an extension of the leader, and so they oftentimes will bring me in to do leadership sessions or facilitate meetings, or that type of thing. First of all, one of the first concepts is that people are whole, and capable, and smart, and can figure out the things that they need to, is applied to the many as well as to the individual. So, the collective wisdom of the group.

But one of the things that we talk about in coaching is you have to let go of the outcome and you have to let go of being right or giving advice, which I also think applies to facilitation. I think you need to have a structure, and a framework, and you need to have an outcome in mind that the group is trying to get to. But how they get there and what they actually accomplish is something that can be applied from the coaching framework into facilitation. Because those skill sets of asking questions and helping people recognize what they want to do is really fundamental to facilitation, and it’s also fundamental to coaching.

Douglas:

That’s making me think about one of our recent facilitation labs. I was just in New York City. We were having a facilitation lab there at Muro’s office. So, I went in to help support, because I knew we’d have a larger audience and just excited support our friends at Muro for offering up the space. And so, I was assisting Noelle, our regional lead there in New York. And the person that was practicing was struggling a little bit. And I noticed it and Noelle noticed it at the same time. I also noticed Noelle starting to lean in to give him some advice and maybe even help the audience better understand the instructions.

And then I motioned at her and said, “Just wait.” And then once she understood what I was encouraging her to do, just to pause, then I leaned over and I said, “That’s going to be really great for the debrief.” Because especially in Facilitation Lab where we’re just practicing in front of a peer group and learning, it’s okay if things are rough. That’s what lab’s all about. But the learning is so much richer if we talk about it in the debrief versus if we correct it in the moment.

Karyn:

Absolutely. Yeah, it’s funny, that’s something that Julianne and I always talk about, too, when is the learning or the teaching, if you want to call it that from a facilitator perspective, comes and pointing out in the debrief. Which isn’t unlike coaching, where someone will say something and I will reflect back to them, “Hey, this seems really important to you. You’ve brought it up several times. What’s your reaction to that?” So, it’s inviting people to react to different parts of information that you’re noticing or observing, or pulling out along the way, but really letting of that I am the stage, on the stage or whatever everybody says. And that I have the all-knowing…

It’s like, no, you’re there to set up an environment where people can do the work that they need to do. And that’s another translation to coaching, is as a coach, my job isn’t to figure out what… I’m not a consultant as a coach. I can be, but I try not to be. My job is to set up an environment where people can do the work that they need to do. And a lot of that has to do with the preparation that you do and the questions that you ask. And so, there’s a ton of tie-backs to facilitation.

Douglas:

Yeah. I like to compare it to being a gardener versus a mechanic. A mechanic goes in with the tools and they put everything at the right to work. They make the engine work. But a gardener just sets the conditions for plants to grow. They can’t make the plant grow. They can’t tell the plant what to do. It’s going to do what a plant does. And so, I think humans are not like cars. They’re more like plants.

Karyn:

Yeah, I love that analogy. I might steal that.

Douglas:

Please do. I think more people need to understand that.

Karyn:

And it’s also, if you think about it and take that analogy one step further, the preparation, the soil has to have certain components to it and that you have to have certain sunlight and heat. And there’s just so many factors. And I think sometimes that’s where facilitators might get overwhelmed, is there’s a lot of variables in there. But if you set up an environment that you are pretty sure is going to create conditions that would be successful, that’s what your role is.

Douglas:

Yeah. And being prepared for some potential outcomes, but being willing to adapt if things don’t… If it doesn’t snow, then we maybe don’t need to put up the heat lamp or whatever. I think so many times folks get really excited about a design or their plans and they’re unwilling to let go of that. And to me, the real thing is just being willing to respond to what emerges.

Karyn:

Yeah. And I think that’s one of the things that I’ve noticed that learning to be a coach has really helped me do. And I often wonder if there’s a place in Facilitation, training around coaching, because I’m super comfortable now, more comfortable than I’ve ever been. And being able to handle any question from any level of person in any meeting that I’m in, because I don’t have to have the answer. My job isn’t to have the answer. And no matter how challenging someone can be or things that I’m not expecting, I can be okay with that because my job is to reflect, and to ask questions, and to set up an environment. And when I do get nervous, that’s what I tell myself is that’s not my job. My job is to set up the environment. My job isn’t to control how this goes.

Douglas:

Yeah, I love that. I think so often folks get so concerned about making sure every detail’s correct and everything’s right, and it turns out perfectly, that the obsession and concern over all the details means they miss landing the plane, when in fact landing the plane was all they needed to do.

Karyn:

Yeah, absolutely. It’s funny, I’m learning a new program right now. And I’m listening to the recording of the way that they’re doing their certification. And one of the things which I really love is they’re expecting you to know that you know what you’re doing. And they’re giving you, “Here’s the what’s important part of this, here’s why this matters, this particular concept or piece of information,” but how you as a facilitator go through the exercise or what have you, there’s so many different options and ways that they’re giving you to do that. And I think that’s another important thing, is to be flexible. Is that even though this activity was planned to be 20 minutes, but people are having a really robust conversation, being flexible to go, “Okay, well, I’m going to adjust this other activity because this one seemed to be really valuable.” And instead of being so structured and rigid to a specific timeline, I think that’s another key learning… And just getting comfortable, being flexible really.

Douglas:

It’s funny, it reminds me of a recent conversation I had at Facilitation Lab, Austin, where someone was talking about a challenge they have around keeping people engaged and maintaining the engagement. And when we peeled back a few layers, it was clear that she was not given the latitude and flexibility to adjust the timing, to adjust how it was facilitated. Everything was by the minute, spelled out. There was no leeway. If something needed to go longer and something else get compressed, none of that was allowed. It had to be on the money, and it was even audited to that point. There were people that were observing to make sure she did it right. And it’s funny, because when we really looked at the design, there were some real design flaws to begin with. So, not only was there no ability for her as a facilitator to adapt that space to the needs of whoever showed up, it also was designed in a way that didn’t create great engagement. So, it was like we were at little bit of a loss to give her advice because, wow, you’re kind of in a trap.

Karyn:

Yeah. And companies spend millions, if not billions of dollars on development. And it’s stuff like that that just makes me cringe. I’ve worked in some environments like that. And I would say if that were the case today, I would definitely not do that facilitation, because you’re just being set up to fail. And everybody in the room is actually being set up to fail, not just the facilitator.

Douglas:

Yeah. And that’s a problem I would say with a lot of L&D types of facilitation. It’s like you’re working with people that have just been instructed they have to be there. It’s like they didn’t sign up for this.

Karyn:

Captive audience.

Douglas:

Yes. It’s like, man. Well, amidst of captive audience, you’ve been talking about how you’re just going through a moment right now, which I think might be reflective of just where the market’s shifting, from a bit more of a bearish market to maybe a more bullish market. Or just people are spending more. You’re talking about fish jumping in the boat, so what’s that been like.

Karyn:

Oh, yeah. It was funny, I was just talking to someone today. They said, “Wow, you have a lot of fish jumping in your boat.” So, I just have been very grateful that there’s getting a lot of different types of work. So, I do executive coaching, I do facilitation, I do leadership development, I do some speaking. And I’ve had this really nice blend and mix of all of those opportunities. But really, this year has started off really strong. And I’m super grateful for that and the different types of experiences that I’m getting the chance to do. So, it’s so far so good. So, I’m optimistic that it’s going to be a good year.

Douglas:

I love that.

Karyn:

Knock on wood.

Douglas:

Yeah, absolutely. And it sounded like lots of coaching opportunities, which it’s really great that there’s more of that work coming and you’re able to solidify that.

Karyn:

Yeah. One of the things that I love about executive coaching is, to me, it’s one of the most individualized forms of development. So, you can go to a class and learn a lot of great things. And you can go to conferences and pick up on new ideas and innovations and all kinds of… And all of those things are great and valid. But the deep work that you can do as a leader, I think there’s probably no substitute in my mind for sitting down with a coach and figuring out what’s next for you, what might be getting in your way, and how do you want to go about resolving that. Not somebody telling you or giving you a model.

There’s a time and place for that in leadership development. I think when you’re newer in career, learning about situational leadership and learning about the different models of strategic direction and strategic leadership, those are all important to know. But then there comes a point at which knowing, again, the technical aspects isn’t going to solve it. It’s how do you move through different transition periods in a way that’s going to work for you? And I love doing that.

Douglas:

Yeah. It’s almost like it becomes more introspective than tool-based at that point.

Karyn:

Yeah. Some people want more structure than others. Some people want to talk through… A lot of times one topic that comes up a lot is delegation. And there are different ways to delegate that some people have never heard about. And so, as a coach, I sometimes will weave consulting into coaching, because if people truly don’t know that there’s lots of different ways to solve a challenge, then I’m happy to share that. But a lot of times you can never really fully appreciate where somebody else is coming from because we don’t sit in their seat. We don’t have the same lived experience, no matter how similar you are to someone else. So, we’re all more biased that our own solutions are the best. And so, the more we can pull those out and go, “Okay, well, what do you want to try? What do you want to experiment with?” And doing something on a small scale, seeing if it works, continuing to build, and that also builds confidence. Those are all the techniques and things that I tend to work within.

Douglas:

Where do you see all this going? I know when we did the blog post, you had talked about maybe there’s a book in the future. Is that something that’s taken some roots or what do you think is coming in the future for you?

Karyn:

Yeah. So, I’m still rolling that around. I think the struggle I’m having is finding the time, which is probably the biggest factor for everybody. But I’m actually writing some articles. So, I’ve written a couple articles for training and development. So, ATD, which is the Association for Training and Development. And I’m writing one right now with a partner of mine about, if you’re a leader in an organization, how do you select an executive coach? I mean, it’s a pretty flooded market and it’s pretty unregulated. There’s a lot of great coaches out there, but how do you find the one that is right for your organization and right for you? John Reed, who is another co-collaborator with mine, he wrote a book about that subject. I’m doing some writing in some different kinds of ways right now. And then I do think at some point down the road, I’d love to get a book out.

I’m actually also learning some different programs. So, there’s a program out of New Zealand, which is called Riders and Elephants, and it’s around culture change. So, I’m learning about how leaders can impact that, because I think organizational cultures and just the culture that we are all living through right now deserves some thoughtfulness. And so, I’m learning how to facilitate. So, I’m going to be a lifelong learner. My husband keeps asking me if I’m done. He is like, “When are you…” I said, “I don’t think I’m ever going to be done.” So, those are, for me, what’s next, is just how do I continue to keep contributing in this space in lots of different ways. And then when I finally can get some space and figure out how I’m going to write a book, maybe I need a coach.

Douglas:

There you go. I’ve had friends that the book becomes an artifact of all the smaller writings that were done along the way. So, maybe these posts that you’re working on are the breadcrumbs that take you to the larger work.

Karyn:

Yeah. I have my index cards, and the way I write down all my ideas. And then I have a stack of index cards, so someday those will find their way into a book.

Douglas:

Fantastic. Well, we can’t wait to see it. And I guess in the meantime, make sure to share the articles. We’d love to read them, amplify them, get the word out, because a big fan of what you’re doing.

Karyn:

Oh, yeah, absolutely.

Douglas:

Thanks for being a part of the summit and being an active alumni. We appreciate all you do.

Karyn:

Oh, thanks, Douglas. And thanks for having me on. It was great to talk with you, and I appreciate it very much.

Douglas:

Yeah. And before we go, do you have a final thought for our listeners?

Karyn:

I would say if you are thinking about your development and you’re considering what’s next, I would say consider a coach. It can be a transformational experience. It was for me, and I think it can be in a lot of ways. So, I think that’s my final thought, is give it a consideration.

Douglas:

Nice. Yeah. Excellent. Well, Karyn, it was a pleasure having you. I look forward to talking to you again soon.

Karyn:

Thanks, Douglas.

Douglas:

Thanks for joining me for another episode of the Facilitation Lab podcast. If you enjoyed the episode, please leave us a review, and be sure to subscribe and receive updates when new episodes are released. We love listener tales and invite you to share your facilitation stories. Send them to us on LinkedIn or via email. If you want to know more, head over to our blog where I post weekly articles and resources about facilitation, team dynamics and collaboration. Voltagecontrol.com.

The post How Can Embracing Vulnerability Transform Your Leadership Journey? appeared first on Voltage Control.

“There is so much humanity in vulnerability. If you’re going to ask others to be vulnerable, you have to be willing to do so yourself and let your walls down to have rich, honest conversations.”- Alyssa Coughlin

In this episode of the Facilitation Lab podcast, host Douglas Ferguson converses with Alyssa Coughlin, Chief of Staff Director for the Data and AI Platform Organization at Autodesk. Alyssa shares her journey into facilitation and leadership, emphasizing the importance of patience, active listening, and storytelling in effective facilitation. She discusses leading through influence rather than positional power, empowering team members, and creating a collaborative environment. Alyssa also highlights techniques for engaging quieter participants and the significance of addressing underlying tensions in group dynamics. The episode concludes with a focus on fostering a culture of collaboration and empowerment.

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About the Guest

Alyssa Coughlin is a seasoned leader with a passion for facilitation, a skill she’s honed throughout her career, from student council to her current role as Chief of Staff at Autodesk. Her journey began in high school, organizing chaotic meetings, and evolved as she realized facilitation was central to her leadership style. After transitioning from pharmaceutical sales to project management in tech, Alyssa embraced facilitation as a critical tool for aligning diverse teams and fostering collaboration. She further developed her skills through Voltage Control’s certification program, where she gained confidence in her ability to create inclusive, engaging, and impactful meetings. Alyssa is now focused on scaling facilitation skills across her organization, empowering others to lead conversations and drive collective success.

About Voltage Control

Voltage Control is a facilitation academy that develops leaders through certifications, workshops, and organizational coaching focused on facilitation mastery, innovation, and play. Today’s leaders are confronted with unprecedented uncertainty and complex change. Navigating this uncertainty requires a systemic facilitative approach to gain clarity and chart pathways forward. We prepare today’s leaders for now and what’s next.

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Transcript

Douglas:

Hi, I’m Douglas Ferguson. Welcome to the Facilitation Lab podcast where I speak with Voltage Control certification alumni and other facilitation experts about the remarkable impact they’re making. We embrace a method agnostic approach so you can enjoy a wide range of topics and perspectives as we examine all the nuances of enabling meaningful group experiences. This series is dedicated to helping you navigate the realities of facilitating collaboration, ensuring every session you lead becomes truly transformative. Thanks so much for listening. If you’d like to join us for a live session sometime, you can join our Facilitation Lab community. It’s an ideal space to apply what you learn in the podcast in real time with peers. Sign up today at voltagecontrol.com/facilitation-lab and if you’d like to learn more about our twelve-week facilitation certification program, you can read about it at voltagecontrol.com. Today, I’m with Alyssa Coughlin at Autodesk, where she is the chief of staff director for the data and AI platform organization. Welcome to the show, Alyssa.

Alyssa:

Thanks Douglas, and thanks for having me. I’m excited to be here.

Douglas:

Of course. Thanks for joining. Well, let’s get started by hearing a little bit about how you got into this work. How did you get into being a chief of staff and thinking about facilitation and bringing groups together to make better decisions?

Alyssa:

Yeah, chief of staff is something I kind of stumbled into. At the beginning of my career, I didn’t know about this position or what it entailed. I just knew I had this myriad of skills and they all centered around bringing people together and driving organizations towards common goals and really just kind of being that connective tissue that paves the way for others to succeed. I got here through various positions. I’m actually on my second career. I started as a pharmaceutical sales rep, which is very different, and from there I moved over to the technology space and I did project and program management, and that really morphed into being a chief of staff, and it’s been a really exciting career journey because I finally found the position that if I could have just dreamed it up and picked all of the things I like to do and I’m good at, it would’ve come down to being a chief of staff.

Douglas:

I was thinking about your alumni story and how you depicted this tale of facilitating long before you really thought about it from the perspective of that role or that title. I think I remember you talking about a prom planning committee, is that right?

Alyssa:

Yeah, and student council, and I have just been doing this forever and then didn’t realize it was facilitation until somewhat recently.

Douglas:

When you think back to those early formative days, what do you think were some of the key skills or some of the key ways that you were showing up that made you successful?

Alyssa:

I think being able to read people and read a room and having a high EIQ is invaluable when it comes to facilitation. And so when I was on the prom planning committee or student council, I would see that need and I would lean into it and step in and realize that this group all has the same intentions and they want the same goals, but they don’t really know how to get there. And so I would step in and I would lead that discussion and that conversation and just help drive them to the endpoint without necessarily feeding them the answers. It’s more about discovery and giving them an opportunity to figure out the answers for themselves.

Douglas:

Oh, I love that. So this idea of not feeding them the answers, what’s your favorite go-to technique? I mean, I’m sure you’ve grown a lot and advanced a lot since those days, but I’m sure this not feeding people the answers is still core component of how you show up. And so I’m curious, nowadays, which one of your favorite ways of not feeding the answers, but making it feel productive or inviting?

Alyssa:

Funny enough, I find the simpler the probing questions, the better because they leave a lot of room for interpretation. So if the group is starting to get there, but they’re not quite there, something as simple as, “Say more about that.” Or, “How did you get there?” Make them kind of reflect on what they’ve said so far and what they’ve learned so far, and then drill back into maybe something that deserves more detail that they glossed over or recenter them back on the original conversation. It’s really just corralling almost.

Douglas:

Yeah, I love that. And so much of that is active listening and curiosity

Alyssa:

And come to it with an open mind, even if it’s a topic that you are familiar with. When you’re trying to lead these conversations, just act like you’re unfamiliar with the topic and be like, “Well, that’s interesting. Say more about this.” Or, “Why are we doing it this way?” And sometimes just drilling back to those basics helps reground and recenter the group and helps them move forward in a more cohesive way.

Douglas:

Yeah, absolutely. And I love this idea of even if we know the answer, we don’t necessarily have to provide it as the leader.

Alyssa:

Exactly. And a good leader I think focuses more on teaching. That old adage of give a man a fish, feed him for a day. Teach a man to fish, feed him for life. I think leaders really live by that, and it’s so much easier to be like, the answer is ABC, but your group will never learn. Your group will never become self-sufficient and they’ll never be able to grow. And I think a good leader wants their group to actually grow beyond them. You don’t need to know everything to be a good leader or to be a good facilitator. You need to know how to embody the people around you to be their best.

Douglas:

Love that. And so let’s go back to those early formative days. If you could send a message to yourself or go visit with your younger self, what’s one piece of advice you would depart on that you now know, some of this wisdom that you’ve gained through the years?

Alyssa:

I think advice that I would give my younger self is to be more patient in the conversation. And that’s really hard. When we study facilitation, we learn about the power of the pause and the power of just a moment of silence to give others a chance to jump in or to reflect. And so as an extrovert, that’s so hard. I’m like, I’m ready to go. I have the answer. I’m excited about this. But that’s not really how you lead facilitation and that’s not really how you help the group grow. So my advice to my younger self would be just be patient, slow down and let the conversation happen more organically.

Douglas:

So this is a common one, so I find this fascinating. Did you find that that silence was uncomfortable for you or was it just this mindset of we’re going, following the energy and it’s being exciting and let’s move and go and go? Or was it just that anytime silence came up it was uncomfortable or maybe it was a mixture of both? I don’t know. How did it feel?

Alyssa:

I would say it’s a mixture of both. I definitely don’t want to lose the momentum from the conversation. And at the same time, there’s a little bit of an imposter syndrome around that silence. Am I failing if I’m not filling every second of this conversation? And moving past that and learning that, no, I’m not failing. I’m empowering and I am giving the group an opportunity to fill the space with what they see fit. But it’s definitely something that it takes practice, especially when you consider active listening and how your brain is just moving so fast and you’re like, I want to contribute all of these things to this conversation, but I need to slow down for a minute and actually listen to what the rest of the group is saying and allow them to fill some of this space as well, because it’s not a monologue or it’s not me just talking to myself.

Douglas:

You’re right. It’s not a monologue and it requires a group conversation to get past these obvious solutions to get to things that are novel and interesting.

Alyssa:

And I think what’s really important is for whatever the outcome you’re trying to accomplish, to really resonate and to have a lasting impact, it needs to be cultivated by the entire group. It’s not going to be as meaningful. It’s not going to take root if it’s just me or any one person just talking at them. It needs to be a story that we build and we tell and we see ourselves in together and not just about one person.

Douglas:

Yeah. So you mentioned the word story there. How often does story and narrative show up in your facilitation?

Alyssa:

All the time. I think people will resonate with that more. When you think about stuff that you can remember from years and years ago, whether it’s a song or it’s a story or something funny that happened, there’s a personal connection there and that’s what allows it to really stay with you for a long time versus, I can’t remember what I had for breakfast yesterday, because there wasn’t a story there. That wasn’t important and that didn’t matter to me. And so I think when you are telling a story, you are inviting a sense of belonging and purpose in whatever narrative you’re trying to explain, and it becomes a shared narrative at that point.

Douglas:

Yeah. I’m also curious, we talked a little bit about leadership, it’s come up already. And as someone who’s been drawn to leadership roles from a young age, how has your sense of what leadership is evolved through the years?

Alyssa:

I think I really started to understand my brand of leadership when I transitioned into the technology sector and I was introduced to Scrum and Agile project management. And so one of the foundations of Agile is servant leadership. And the whole concept around a leader paves the way for the team. They remove obstacles, they provide resources, they set everyone else up for success. It’s kind of the mantra, leaders eat last. And so that’s where I had this moment of self-recognition or self-realization and I was like, “Yeah, that’s my leadership brand.” And that’s why I’m passionate about it. I attribute my personal success to the success of my team and those around me. And that’s something that I really love about being a chief of staff is that’s my job. It’s to make my leadership team the best they can be and the more they succeed, the more I succeed.

Douglas:

I love that. This idea of our success is measured through the success of those around us and those that we influence.

Alyssa:

Absolutely. And I think that is so important for facilitators, because how do you measure a successful gathering or successful facilitation? It’s not about how you feel when you walk away from the session. It’s, what was the outcome of the session? What is the sentiment of everyone else who was there? Was it valuable for them? Was it meaningful? Will it last? And I think my brand of leadership just so naturally fed into what makes a successful facilitator.

Douglas:

What advice do you have for folks that maybe aren’t in positional leadership roles and how they might view leadership from this lens? Because I personally feel that there’s a lot of opportunities to lead as an influential leader even if you don’t have this positional power. And so I’m really curious, I’m sure you see a lot of that at your vantage point there at Autodesk, because you get to see a lot of different individuals in a lot of different roles. So what advice do you have for folks that maybe want to be in leadership, but maybe don’t have that position or just don’t feel like they’re a leader?

Alyssa:

Yeah, for those folks the first thing I would say is don’t equate management with leadership. They’re not the same thing at all. You do not need to be a people manager or any position of authority to lead. In fact, leading through influence is the hardest way to do it, and it will be the most pivotal skill set you will develop in your career. To be able to lead up, down, and across is going to be really important. My advice would be don’t doubt yourself. Take up space. You are in that room for a reason and your experience and your contributions are valued. And so share those. And help make room for others, because people will notice that if there’s somebody in the room who is maybe feeling timid about chiming in, make space for them and be like, “Well, what are you thinking?” And people will remember that, people will automatically look at you as somebody who is leading and who is helping to guide the group.

Douglas:

That is such a great tool just to bring others into the conversation.

Alyssa:

Never underestimate the power of that.

Douglas:

What’s some of your favorite ways to A, identify those that might need to be included, and then also just bringing them in subtle but powerful ways?

Alyssa:

Yeah, I think as far as identifying those as a facilitator, there’s definitely a little bit of pre-work. So whenever you go into a meeting or a session, you want to make sure you understand the audience and that you have the right people there. Priya Parker talks about generous exclusion and it’s so important. So if you have somebody there and they’re not speaking up, the first thing you want to do is make sure, is this person set up for success? Are they actually supposed to be in this meeting or this session, or are they set up to just not be able to contribute? And that’s not going to be a good experience for anyone. But beyond that, it’s a lot about reading cues and reading energy, and that’s so much easier in person.

So with Zoom, I always suggest camera’s on because as the facilitator, you can kind of read people, maybe they’re about to say something and then they pause or you can see their face light up or a scowl, and you’ll find clues that they have something to say. Then just gradually invite them in. Don’t put them on the spot, just be like, “Hey, so-and-so, I think you have a lot of expertise in this area. What do you think about that?” Something that kind of builds them up first instead of just putting them directly in the spot and being like, “Hey, you haven’t said anything.” Nobody’s going to respond well to that.

Douglas:

Yeah, I like that. Gradually building folks up.

Alyssa:

Yeah, absolutely. Leaders build up those around them. There’s nothing to accomplish by tearing people down. Even if you think it makes yourself look better, it doesn’t. And people will remember that, especially if it’s the first time you’ve interacted with a group, there’s no second chance at a first impression. And so just remember that when you build up, rising tides, lift all ships. And so it’s important that you are elevating everyone around you, because you don’t actually know their full potential and you don’t know what they could contribute. But if you tear them down and they don’t feel empowered to contribute, then it’s just a loss for everyone.

Douglas:

Speaking of lifting others up, I believe you shared a story about an HR colleague that helped you realize that what you were doing was facilitation and being able to label your skills in that way opened up a career path or those realizations just changed how you approached your career development. So tell me a little bit more about that.

Alyssa:

Yeah, and that’s such a prime example of sometimes you really just need one person to believe in you to get you over that hurdle. So this happened back when I wanted to transition from working in pharmaceuticals to working in tech, and I was really intimidated by this change. I’d had friends tell me, and colleagues that, “You have a transferable skill set. Why don’t you jump into this industry if you’re not really resonating with the industry you’re in right now?” And I was like, “Well, I’m not an engineer. I don’t have this deep technical background. I’m not sure how I can really sell myself to a new industry.” And I had a really good friend who was an HR business partner at the time, and she just helped me kind of build my resume and go through it. And she asked me questions about like, “Well, what do you do all day?”

And as I was explaining what I do, she’s like, “That’s creating a business plan, that’s facilitating, that’s…” All of these different skill sets that hadn’t occurred to me because I was being so literal with everything I was doing. I was like, “Well, I sell drugs in the neuroscience division.” But that’s not what matters, and that’s not what transfers and translates. And so she taught me, and this is a really important skill set for a facilitator, is to know when to zoom out to zoom in. And so she said, “Pull back. Just look at the raw form of everything you’re doing. What is that? How would you describe it?” And I’m like, “Oh, well, this is facilitation.” And she’s like, “Exactly, so put that on your resume.” And so it was just having somebody who could help me get through a moment of doubt and a moment of imposter syndrome. And that’s important in leadership, and that’s important in facilitation is just sometimes everybody needs a little push and a little help.

Douglas:

Absolutely. And that’s so great to know that they were there when you needed them. And then as leaders, we can reciprocate to those in need and step into those moments too.

Alyssa:

Yeah, there are probably so many moments that seem benign or mundane to you that had an impact on somebody else’s life and you don’t know. And so I always try to show up as my best and to bring out the best in others, because you don’t necessarily know when somebody else is having a moment of self-doubt and they just need one person to cheer them on or believe in them for a second, and that’ll get them over that hump.

Douglas:

Yeah, so true. Even folks that seem like they have confidence, there might not be a lot underneath that exterior that we see.

Alyssa:

Totally, yeah. I mean, I work with VPs who in a one-on-one will be like, “I am extremely introverted. I am uncomfortable with these big group conversations, and this is not my natural personality. This is not how I show up at home.” And then they’ll give a presentation and it’s like they’re presenting a daytime talk show or something. I mean, they’re just so confident and they’re so smooth. And so people are complex and they are layers. And so how people show up in one situation or one environment is not their whole personality. And I think it’s really important to remember that and to dig through them and to encourage it, because sometimes you can get stuck in, I’m not a speaker, I’m not a facilitator. And you just need somebody to say, “Well, yeah, you are and you’ve got this.” And remember at the end of the day that everybody’s human and nobody’s perfect, and it’s really unreasonable to expect that. And I think as soon as you break down that need for perfection, you create a more welcoming environment that’s going to be conducive to better conversations.

Douglas:

I’m thinking about how you shared in your transition to project management that a lot of it was navigating conflicting priorities with diverse teams. And so I’m curious, when you think about some of these tough facilitation moments or these challenges that the teams were facing or that you were facing together as you were facilitating and they were trying to figure this stuff out, what comes to mind that might be interesting for folks to hear about? If you can’t name specifics, are there any patterns that you’ve noticed?

Alyssa:

I have. I think it’s human nature to kind of revert back to meeting your own needs first. And so as a facilitator, something that I commonly encounter is having to break down organizational silos. So for example, I used to work in the class action litigation space, project managing those, and that’s a really complex process. You have the data processing team, you have the print formatting team, you have finance, you have all of these teams, and they each have these individual goals and objectives that they need to accomplish.

And so my job as the project manager and as the facilitator was to help them break down their individual silos and their individual goals and remind them at the end of the day, helping people who have been hurt and meeting the needs of our client is our goal across the board. This is what we’re all striving to achieve. And so I think when you remind them of how their part contributes to the whole and how it’s important to have everybody’s part contributing to the whole, you help break down these barriers and move the project forward. But it’s something I still encounter to this day. Different leaders all have their own organizations and they’re all just worried about the success of their organization, but at the end of the day, it’s really the success of Autodesk that matters. And we have a belief, we call it “One Autodesk”, and it’s so important to remember that and to remember that we are separate parts contributing to a bigger whole.

Douglas:

You’ve got the mantra of what you mentioned, and I’m sure that’s effective of just helping people anchor in on this bigger purpose, this bigger why. What are some other ways that you’re aligning folks in these sessions?

Alyssa:

I think one important way to, or an important aspect of alignment is to address any sort of elephant in the room. A lot of times people will not say exactly what they mean and the conversation will just kind of go in circles and the important stuff ends up going left unsaid. And so there’s definitely an aspect of diplomacy, but bravery as well and being able to just prompt that and be like, are we actually talking about what we need to talk about right now? Or are we staying at the surface level and all trying to be friendly, in which case we’re just spinning our wheels and we’re not actually moving forward towards accomplishing our goals. And so kind of knowing when to push the group a little bit to move past those barriers and past those comfort zones versus when to step back and let them sort of do it on their own, there’s definitely an art to it. It’s by no means a science, and a lot of it is just trying. There’s so much reading people in facilitation.

Douglas:

Reading people is so essential and there’s so many signals to watch out for. What are some of your go-to methods for making sure you have your finger on the pulse, so to speak?

Alyssa:

Yeah, well, when you’re in person, there’s obviously body language is really important to keep an eye on, but we live in a hybrid world and myself, and I’m sure many other folks are primarily on video calls and Zoom. And so from there I try to keep an eye on the pace of the conversation. Are people cutting each other off more? Is it getting a little bit more assertive? Is there some hostility starting to bubble underneath the surface? On the flip side of that, has somebody completely shut down? Is somebody who is normally a contributor and who I would expect to contribute to this portion of the conversation remaining silent? And just watch for the tone, watch for, you can even just see a smile.

You can see how people are reacting or are they scowling? But it’s so many subtleties that you want to look out for. There’s very seldom going to be this glaring sign that’s like, “Hey, the group is not on the same page anymore.” If you reach the point where it has escalated to that level, you probably missed a few subtle cues you could have used to rein it in sooner. But I would say just really watch the flow of the conversation, watch how they’re interacting. Is their demeanor changing? Is their voice changing? And when it does, how can you help bring them back?

Douglas:

Yeah. What are some of your go-to approaches to bring it back? I mean, you used the word rein it in, so what does reining it in look like for you?

Alyssa:

Sometimes it means reminding the group of the north star and why we’re here and saying something along, “I hear what you’re saying, however, I’m not sure that that’s going to get us to our north star. And so let’s step back for a moment and possibly look at this from a different angle.” Another way to do it is to ask them to frame it in a different way. Say, “Hey, I don’t really understand what you’re saying right now. Can you frame it from this angle for me? Or how does what you’re saying contribute to the objective of this gathering, meeting, session?” Whatever it may be.

And so by rein it in, what I refer to is step back to step forward and just remind everybody of why they’re there. Try to deescalate, try to recenter and refocus, and then have the group get back on track. And that’s tricky, because sometimes it’s so hard to know when the conversation is going in an important direction that you should allow as a facilitator and when it’s starting to run down a rabbit hole and you need to pull it back in. And so that’s where the active listening really comes in handy. And you need to be completely engaged the entire time.

Douglas:

Yeah, that’s a stylistic thing too. How far do you let things go out into the nether regions before you bring them back in, because that’s where inspiration might hit or innovative ideas might happen. And so I think when folks shut that off too quick, they miss those opportunities.

Alyssa:

Exactly. And I come back to it’s an art, not a science. It’s really hard to know when are you blocking innovation versus when are you blocking unnecessary conflict. And it’s so much easier when you’re working with a group continually. So for me, I work with a senior leadership team all the time. I know them well. I know when they’re starting to go down an avenue that’s not going to be successful versus when they might be starting to figure something out. It’s really, really hard though as a facilitator when you’re jumping into a group you’re not familiar with. And my advice in that situation is to really lean into that naivety and to be like, “I don’t understand this. Could you explain this further?” Or, “How does this accomplish whatever our ultimate goal is?” And there’s nothing wrong with just asking those questions that they may sound uninformed, but they could be helping to prompt the group to pause for a moment just to reflect on are we going towards this path of innovation or is this a fruitless conversation that we should abandon?

Douglas:

Yeah, I like that. And it can often be used as a way to, as the facilitator, you can de-escalate using that approach. You can steer things back toward the purpose or north star, as you were saying earlier, but do it in a way that doesn’t seem confrontational. Saying things like, “Help me connect the dots here.” Because it’s not about them saying it wrong or being confusing. It’s about me, the facilitator, having trouble connecting the dots when probably everybody else in the room felt the same way, but because I’m the one that fell on the sword, now everyone gets the benefit.

Alyssa:

Absolutely, yeah. Facilitators have to be willing to just take the bullet sometimes and be okay with doing it for the better of the group. Yeah, to your point, I mean, you’re probably not the only one who’s thinking that. I guarantee you there’s somebody else in the room who’s like, “Why are we talking about this?” But there’s a group dynamic at play, and as a facilitator, you’re oftentimes seen as this impartial entity. And so it’s not going to be as intrusive if you ask the question as if somebody else in the group were to do so.

Douglas:

And also I think we practice those ways of not being judgmental or not coming across as confrontational. I think even if folks aren’t being confrontational, if they clearly have an opinion on the matter and they just blurt out whatever is on the top of mind, it probably comes across confrontational.

Alyssa:

Absolutely. And in those situations, I try to bring things back to facts. Is this just an objective opinion? Do you just feel some way about this? Or do you have information that the rest of the group could benefit from understanding that has led you to this opinion? And so if you challenge them on that, you’ll oftentimes find your answer whether they were right, and there’s an avenue that you should be pursuing that you missed. Or it’ll kind of allow them to self-check and be like, “Wow, I feel this way because I feel this way, but I don’t have any data I can bring to the group to validate it.”

Douglas:

When you were saying validation and bring it back to facts, it made me think how powerful a prompt along the lines of, how might we measure that?

Alyssa:

Definitely. And my organization, we live in the world of OKRs, which are objectives and key results for anyone who’s not familiar, and they’re a way to measure the success of an organization. And there’s such an easy thing to point work back to. So if a team is kind of going in the wrong direction, it’s like, which OKR are you feeding with this project? Are you moving us towards our common goals that we aligned on and that we agreed on as a group? And yeah, I love that you said that, Douglas. How will you measure success? Is this measurable? Is a great question to ask because it really forces them to pause and think, is there a way for me to know for certain that this is the right thing to do, or is it just a shot in the dark?

Douglas:

Yeah, I love that. I want to talk about vulnerability real quick. And you mentioned that as one of the key parts in the learning experience for you during our certification, and I wanted to see if you could elaborate a bit on how embracing vulnerabilities has helped you grow as a facilitator.

Alyssa:

There is so much humanity in vulnerability. And coming back to what we were saying earlier about facilitation, it’s just not possible if you can’t connect on a human level. I think if you’re going to ask others to be vulnerable, you have to be willing to do so yourself and to let your walls down and to be able to have these rich, honest conversations. And it’s so uncomfortable. You’re opening up a piece of yourself that you’ve probably really tried to protect, and that’s I think, a natural instinct. But learning to talk about things maybe you’re not great at or things that you wish you could do better. It doesn’t have to be a therapy session where you’re like, “Here’s my every insecurity and here’s what led to it.” But being able to show people that you’re willing to give a piece of yourself makes them more prone to giving a piece of themselves in return and then you’re having a more honest conversation.

Douglas:

Yeah. Speaking of the summit, you’re going to be at the summit this year, so what kind of excites you the most about coming down to Austin and being with a bunch of fellow facilitators?

Alyssa:

So much. I love getting to talk to other facilitators and learn from them. Everybody does it a little bit differently and so there’s always so many gold nuggets that I can borrow from other facilitators and share. Some of mine in return this year will be different. I’m excited for a different reason because I’m presenting this year, it is my first time presenting at the Facilitation Summit, and I’m actually going to be talking about some of the stuff we discussed today. We’re going to talk about using storytelling and leveraging that through facilitation to enable change management and how when you want a change to really take root and take effect, you have to tell a story that people can see themselves in and you have to bring them along on the journey with you. That’s where you get that true buy-in. And so we’re going to talk about kind of how do you do that? What are some tips? Coming back to how do you measure it, how do you know if it’s been successful? And how can you seamlessly fold that into just your everyday facilitation?

Douglas:

Love that. Storytelling is so critical. I think so often stories are such a part of getting teams to align, getting ideas to come out, yet folks aren’t spending enough time thinking about how they draw a good story out of people.

Alyssa:

Yeah, you always have to think about the what’s in it for me. So I work with the platform organization at Autodesk and we build all of these cool capabilities and then we take them to product teams and we’re like, “Hey, use this.” And the first, the human response is, “No, why? You haven’t given me a reason. What’s in it for me?” And so to be able to tell that story, to tell the story of why this is a great capability for your use case and how it can unlock new things for your work and make your life easier. Really putting them in the story of your capability or your product really makes it seem like it’s something that they belong to as well. And so that’s what we’re going to talk about some. And whether you’re trying to increase adoption or sell something or start a new idea, it doesn’t really matter. Being able to tell that story will help you be more successful.

Douglas:

So you’ve also mentioned the importance of mentoring others in facilitation at Autodesk. I’m curious, what strategies have worked best when you’ve been developing others around these skills and how do you see facilitation shaping the organization’s culture?

Alyssa:

Yeah, I think not taking for granted the ability to be a storyteller is really important because that is something that comes more naturally to some folks than others. And so we’ve really been focusing on how to be a storyteller and helping our team feel confident in their ability to articulate a story, especially because we have a global team. We have people with different first languages coming from different cultures and different backgrounds, and that can create different insecurities. And so being able to connect through story and be like, well, a story doesn’t necessarily have to know any sort of cultural bounds, it’s something that we can all belong to together.

And so I lead the extended leadership team for my organization and at our summit this past summer, we spent an entire day just focusing on storytelling and talking about all the different ways that that can be an asset in their toolset or career, however you want to phrase it. And it’s not just at work. I’m on the board for the Autodesk Women’s Network, and we’re talking about selling your own skill sets and standing up for yourself, selling your brand and what you can bring to the table in your career. And so there are just so many different ways that being able to be an efficient storyteller can help you not only move your career forward, but also help you bring others along.

Douglas:

That’s a nice segue. I was wanting to hear about, as you think about the next phase of your career, as you move that along, what most excites you about the role of facilitation and how it might play in that work that you do in the future?

Alyssa:

I think now I’m at a phase in my career where I have a decent amount of influence. And so being able to use that position to empower others is really exciting to me. When somebody who’s on the leadership team taps you on the shoulder and says, “I think you would be really great for this. I’m so proud of what you’ve done to date, and I’d love for you to share that with others.” You’re really not only building that next generation of leadership, but you’re holding a hand out to somebody else. Because at some point in my career, there was somebody who did that for me, and it gave me the confidence to kind of lean into that unknown, to be vulnerable and to take a chance.

And so now it’s my turn to do that for others and to hold the door open for those behind me. And so I’m really excited to be at a point, obviously you never are done learning how to facilitate. It’s a lifelong learning process, but I do have enough knowledge and information now that I can start to share that with others. And that’s really exciting for me. I would love for everybody to be able to tell their story and to just create this belonging all the way through our organization.

Douglas:

So as we come to a close, I want to give you an opportunity to leave our listeners with a final thought.

Alyssa:

I think it’s kind of a silly analogy, but it’s the one that I hold onto. And what I see facilitation and leadership really drilling down to is you’re kind of a collaboration Sherpa. You know the way, you’re guiding the team, but you’re still letting them make the journey on their own, and you’re helping to remove obstacles and roadblocks, and you’re getting them to where they need to go, but you’re not doing it for them. And that’s really what I try to bear in mind as a leader and a facilitator.

Douglas:

It’s been a pleasure having you on the show, Alyssa. Thanks for joining.

Alyssa:

Thank you. I had a great time. I loved this conversation.

Douglas:

I did as well, and I look forward to talking to you again probably at the summit.

Alyssa:

Great. I’ll see you there.

Douglas:

Thanks for joining me for another episode of the Facilitation Lab podcast. If you enjoyed the episode, please leave us a review and be sure to subscribe to receive updates when new episodes are released. We love listener tales and invite you to share your facilitation stories. Send them to us on LinkedIn or via email. If you want to know more, head over to our blog where I post weekly articles and resources about facilitation, team dynamics, and collaboration. voltagecontrol.com.

The post From Extrovert to Empowerment: The Art of Facilitating Group Dynamics appeared first on Voltage Control.

“I was blown away, absolutely enthralled and fascinated. My granddad turned to me and said, “You’ve got an inquiring mind, don’t ever lose that.” It has essentially formed who I am.”- Dan Walker

In this episode of the Facilitation Lab podcast, host Douglas Ferguson interviews Dan Walker from Collective Imagination Consulting. They discuss Dan’s journey from the legal field to the outdoor industry, driven by his deep curiosity and evolving understanding of justice. Dan shares how his formative experiences shaped his perspectives and how he now helps organizations create pathways toward a more just and joyful society. The conversation highlights the importance of curiosity in both personal and professional contexts, the complexities of justice, and the pivotal role businesses can play in fostering social change. The episode emphasizes a method-agnostic approach to facilitation.

Show Highlights

Links | Resources

About the Guest

Dan supports organizations to work in partnership with Community Leaders in the collective work towards a more just and joyful society.

He brings over 10 years of experience from across the public, non-profit and business sectors guiding organizations to do the “institutional soul work” to identify values they hold.  Supporting organizations to work in partnership with Community Leaders to translate those values in to strategy and actions that deliver the highest expression of those values and incrementally build towards a more just and joyful society.  

Dan cares deeply about respecting each person’s human dignity and brilliance, believing that co-creation can better design the systems within which we live.  His human-centred design approach supports clients to embrace these principles and pursue work that aligns with their values and support the transformative change sought.

As a member on the Board of Directors at the Vancouver Foundation, Dan advises the organization on how to better centre community need and develop governance practices that enshrine that commitment within its values and processes.  As a member of the Board of Directors at the Outdoor Diversity Alliance, he supports their mission to foster a more equitable outdoor industry through centering community expertise and catalyzing collective action across the outdoor industry.  

Balancing his love of music and the arts with time on the trails, you’ll usually find him at a local gig or exhibition, or in motion on the land.  In either context, you’re likely to find him with a huge smile on his face!

About Voltage Control

Voltage Control is a facilitation academy that develops leaders through certifications, workshops, and organizational coaching focused on facilitation mastery, innovation, and play. Today’s leaders are confronted with unprecedented uncertainty and complex change. Navigating this uncertainty requires a systemic facilitative approach to gain clarity and chart pathways forward. We prepare today’s leaders for now and what’s next.

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Transcript

Douglas Ferguson:

Hi, I’m Douglas Ferguson. Welcome to the Facilitation Lab podcast where I speak with Voltage Control Certification alumni and other facilitation experts about the remarkable impact they’re making. We embrace a method-agnostic approach so you can enjoy a wide range of topics and perspectives as we examine all the nuances of enabling meaningful group experiences. This series is dedicated to helping you navigate the realities of facilitating collaboration, ensuring every session you lead becomes truly transformative. Thanks so much for listening. If you’d like to join us for a live session sometime, you can join our Facilitation Lab community. It’s an ideal space to apply what you learn in the podcast in real time with peers. Sign up today at voltagecontrol.com/facilitation-lab, and if you’d like to learn more about our 12 week facilitation certification program, you can read about it at voltagecontrol.com.

Today I’m with Dan Walker from Collective Imagination Consulting, where he supports organizations to co-create pathways toward a more just and joyful society. Welcome to the show, Dan.

Dan Walker:

Really nice to see you, Douglas. Yeah, looking forward to the conversation.

Douglas Ferguson:

Yeah, looking forward to chatting as well. And as usual, let’s get started with how you got your start. And I want to come back to something you mentioned in your alumni story, which was, gosh, I think you were 10 years old in London, your grandfather’s comment about the inquiring mind. Let’s talk about that a little bit.

Dan Walker:

Oh yeah. I mean, it’s a good place to start. It’s always a nice memory. I don’t know, the sun’s rising here too, so I don’t know if there’s a warmth attached to that memory. Yeah, when I was 10, I visited London with my grandparents. It was kind of the first time I’d been on a big trip like that. My grandma and granddad took me and my younger brother around London, and one of the places that we went to was the Tower of London. We went around, we were toured through the exhibits with the beefeaters who spoke to their lives and how things worked and the history. And I was blown away, I was absolutely enthralled and fascinated and obsessed with it.

And I remember coming out of that space and going down the tube, going down the tube close by to get on the underground and go to the next place, and my granddad turning to me and just saying, “You’ve got an inquiring mind. Don’t ever lose that.” And it’s essentially formed who I am. I think I’ve built my identity around this curiosity that I’ve always had. I find the world endlessly fascinating, I find everything endlessly fascinating. My biggest challenge is probably that balance of how do I say no to some things when literally whatever people are into, I just find it interesting. And yeah, it’s really shaped who I am and living into that childlike curiosity is something I always tap into. It really informs my work and how I move through the world, and I just love it. It lights me up anytime I’m doing that. So yeah, it’s a real starting point for me, and it set me on this path that I’m currently still on. Yeah, it’s a beautiful memory too.

Douglas Ferguson:

Has that punctuated moments throughout your life? Do you recall moments where that’s popped up periodically?

Dan Walker:

I think so. I mean, even now I look at it and even when I was chatting to friends the other week and they’re talking about some of the things there now studying and looking at, and I don’t know, I’m currently studying Spanish and learning to draw and sketch and these pieces and then as my friends are talking about these other areas that they’re looking at, I’m like, “Oh my God, how do I learn more about that?” So I see it all the time. I know that’s who I am and that’s what I value.

And then in work too, I think I know my ability to ask questions is my strength. I sit in a space of genuine curiosity, so I always return to that as like, yeah, that’s who I am, my heart, that’s what I believe and what I bring to the world. So it definitely comes up, it shows up all the time, and I think it’s how do I balance that curiosity with focusing on certain things in a certain moment? And also being blown away by everything, by the fascination of spaces. Yeah, I was in CERN, the particle accelerator last year, and mind-blowing what we’re doing and what does that mean and what does that tell us about the world and how 95% of the world is dark matter, and we don’t really know what that is or what that means. And I just find it all endlessly fascinating and I love the world in which we live because of that, I guess. So yeah, it shows up everywhere.

Douglas Ferguson:

Yeah, the quest for knowledge is a fascinating thing. It’s like this ever-receding zone of the universe we don’t understand.

Dan Walker:

Yeah. I mean for you too, I don’t know, do you feel that sense of the curiousness around the planet we live in, how we interact, the social interactions, does that show up for you too?

Douglas Ferguson:

Yeah, I mean, there’s endless things that make me curious. In fact, there’s a construction project on the highway that connects the area I live in to downtown Austin and every time we drive through trying to figure out all the pieces and what are they going to do next and what are they up to and how’s this going to work and where’s this going to go, or are they going to close this down or open this piece up? And my wife finds it hilarious. And I think sometimes when I’m pontificating about the possibilities, she’s sneakily pulled out her phone and is recording me.

Dan Walker:

Which, yeah, to watch you in full flight would be great. I mean, what are other questions are you asking? I don’t know, it brings for me such a beauty to the world. I think with that fascination, I find everything, even the hard bits, I think that’s the spaces that I’ve come to in later years is how to, in the pain of things, can you find the beauty and the fascination and the interest that we can be pushed into these spaces that are really deeply painful for us? And what does that mean and how is that experience and how is that a beautiful experience at the same time? And I would say that’s an incomplete journey, but it’s a space that I’m now moving more into of how do I hold the full experience of life and the complexity of it all and bring that same level of curiosity to everything, not just the beautiful things that I’m in awe of, but also the difficult things too? And I don’t know, yeah, that’ll be the next 50 years trying to figure that out or get closer to figuring some of that out.

Douglas Ferguson:

When you reflect back, what are the things that you found you’re most curious about?

Dan Walker:

Oh, I think humans. I think humans and the interaction of us and how we understand ourselves and how we understand the collective us. I think that interaction is just a fascinating dynamic. There are similarities that come from the shared human experience, but also these profound differences as a result of the lived experience and the systems that we live in and all these pieces. How does that sit together? How do I sit as who I am within this collective system? And then how we layer over the politics and the systems that we’ve created and how that shapes and how it changes culturally from different contexts. So yeah, I find that fascinating without end, I can’t see an end point in being curious about that.

Yeah, I do think psychology, those spaces strongly appeal to me. There’s times where I’m like, “I should maybe look into doing that,” because I just find it a fascinating subject that we’re all beautifully unique and how do we sit together, how do we acknowledge that uniqueness and how do we stitch this collective blanket together as society? That is the space, which kind of ties into my work, this question of justice and what is justice, how do we build towards a more just society, sort of acknowledges those two things. It acknowledges the unique brilliance of each of us, and it questions how do we stitch that together? And that’s the space where, yeah, I could talk about that, read about that, listen to people talking about that, thinking about that, working through it without end.

That’s just a beautiful space for me and in service of a goal that I believe is most precious, I guess, how do we find this space to have respect, a depth for one another and experience joy that can come from that collective sense of belonging? So that’s probably the big piece where it shows up most profoundly. That and then sketching, or I don’t know, whatever else it is at the minute, but really it’s the central focus on just this is the thing.

Douglas Ferguson:

So you talk about justice and connection, how did that first show up for you? What were some of the ways that you started to understand or realize that this is an important thread for you?

Dan Walker:

That’s a good question. I think fairness has always been relevant to me. I think that is probably a very almost naive way of coming to connect with it. When I was younger, this didn’t seem fair, that person was treated differently, we’d worked as hard and that different results came. So I think there was a very juvenile understanding of it, like, “That doesn’t seem fair, these people are being treated differently,” in whatever context it may have been.

And then there was an essay that we had to write when I was at high school, so I wouldn’t be that old, I’d maybe be 12, 13, somewhere in that kind of range, I just remember it too, we were sat in the library at a local school, which was an unusual event, we weren’t often taken to the library for our English classes, but for that one we were, and we were given this essay assignment, there was essentially posing the question of, should we have capital punishment in the country? Should that be legal? Should it not be legal? How do we decide that? And learned all about the miscarriages of justice and how that had transpired, went into the legal background on why it existed, what the historical significance of it was, what’s a society if we don’t have capital punishment in place? And I was enthralled with it, I was totally fascinated by this question.

And I think it brought me to an answer that I didn’t have at the time, I definitely didn’t come to this at the time, but really what was under that is who determines the answer to that question? And within that system, it was determined by a few. And I think where I’ve come to is this question of how are the systems within which we live determined by us all? And that’s the piece where now my understanding of justice sits and comes from.

But yeah, it’s always been there. It’s like always this pursuit of we all matter, our opinions all matter. If we’re having a conversation today on any truly complex subject, you don’t have the answer, I don’t have the answer. Instead, it sits between us and together we shape it and you sharpen my thinking and I sharpen yours, and all of a sudden we have this better understanding, this idea, our ideas are better than my ideas, collectively, we shape it better. And I hold that to be true and I think it comes from a place of respect for other people, a place of belief that we are all phenomenally brilliant and talented, we just need to bring that together. And yeah, that’s really the work that I now do, but it stems from this belief in we all matter and we all should be valued and considered worthy and feel a sense of belonging together. Yeah, I mean, I could talk about it for hours.

Douglas Ferguson:

And you pursued law at some point, right?

Dan Walker:

I did, yeah. So I studied that and I think that was kind of a reflection of that maybe naive answer. I was younger then, I didn’t really know the fullness of the systems in which we sit. I came to it because I believe in justice, well, of the past, you can take, well, this one has justice in the title, we’re doing the legal sector, we’re going into criminal justice, which is intended to deliver justice. But having gone into that, finished my studies, came out, worked in a London Crown Court whilst I was living there to try and figure out do I want to carry on and become a barrister and do this work? It just became apparent to me that the system wasn’t what I believed justice to be.

Douglas Ferguson:

What was the big disconnect there or the dissonance you were feeling?

Dan Walker:

I would say it was systems that were imposing punishment and it wasn’t actually addressing the underlying inequities that exist. So it was just punishing for crimes committed without acknowledging that there are inequities that exist in society that were creating those. It wasn’t doing anything to address that. So for me, there was one case that we tried, prosecuted, the defendant was found guilty, served time in prison, two years later, the exact same case for the exact same defendant landed on my desk and I was like, “This is broken. This is not it.” I look now and I think there are people doing phenomenal work within criminal justice, and I could have maybe found pathways into changing and working on the system. At the time I was younger and I was like, “I don’t feel we’re doing the work of justice,” so I left.

It’s a tricky space because I acknowledge too the victim has suffered harm as a result of the crime so there’s a real importance of centering the victim’s perspective within that conversation too. But I think that we often neglect the perspective of the defendant and the person who has committed those crimes or has been charged with those crimes, they matter too. And I think often we don’t focus on that and say, “Hang on, what has contributed to that person being here today? And how as a society do we take account for that and acknowledge that and work through that and all those pieces?”

So yeah, it’s a fascinating space. I feel like I’m way closer to what I believe justice to be now. I feel like I’m working a far more true reflection of that and there’s amazing work being done within the legal spaces around access to justice and these pieces that maybe if I’d have found those, I would’ve still been there, I just didn’t and it didn’t feel like I was doing the work that I believed to be most true.

Douglas Ferguson:

Yeah, we all take our own path, right? I think at the time you pivoted through the outdoor industry, if I’m remembering right.

Dan Walker:

Yeah, yeah. I ended up, I was in London when I was working in the courts, I left there. London’s amazing, it’s a phenomenal city. I love music, we were talking about that before, music’s my thing, I can’t play, which it sounds like you may be able to, but yeah, I can’t play, I love listening. So in London, I go to all the gigs and it was an amazing city, but at the time it’s exhausting too. It’s phenomenal as a cultural hub, there’s so much going on, there’s so many people. But also over time, that becomes draining at the same time. Every space that you are in, it’s overcrowded, it’s overwhelmed with other people. We’d go to the pub and I’d be sat on half of a stool and then somebody else with their group of friends would be sat on the other half of the stool facing the other way, and it just became a reflection of this is a busy space, I’m quite disconnected from nature here completely to get out into nature was really challenging.

So in parallel, Canada was one of the places where I was like, it seems like it has all the pieces. Nature is here in abundance. Yes, it has its challenges politically, but the conversations around the work of justice, around truth and reconciliation and other pieces are conversations that are being named. So I think that became a place where I was curious to look and ended up moving here. The outdoor industry I came to because I was like, “Well, I guess I’m going to try something different,” I know I don’t want to go back into the legal space, I love time outside, I love nature, I love being connected in those spaces so what about trying the outdoor industry? So that’s what I did.

I initially worked at MEC, Mountain Equipment Company, which is essentially the Canadian equivalent of REI. I worked alongside their CEO, it was amazing, got a really good exposure at the time. They were pushing deeply into the work of sustainability, so focusing on people and planet. And it gave me a real eye-opener as to, wow, the power of businesses to affect change, they had the revenue figured out in a way that nonprofit sector found more challenging. They could work across all different sectors, so they could work with governments, they could work with nonprofits, they could work with academic institutions, they could move so fast on anything. If they wanted to go, they could go there and they could go quickly and they could partner and they could make shifts.

And significantly, they have this huge voice, when outdoor brands say something, it far eclipses what can be said by government or nonprofits, which we can challenge and question whether that’s right. I think a lot of the nonprofits have such credible voices, such credible expertise on these subjects, but they don’t have the recognition and the respect that brands do. And I think we live in a society where the logo has power, and I saw that and how that could be used as a tool for change. So yeah, I left MEC did the same thing over at Arc’teryx, another outdoor brand based here too, worked for their CEO for the first few years.

And one of the things that came to me was every year we’d do a sample sale, so we produce gear that we’d test and see how it worked. It couldn’t then be sold commercially, but the tested gear would be sold internally, and we probably generated about $100,000 a year. And really with that money, I just started asking questions, I was like, “Well, what are we doing with that? What’s the intent of it?” It became really apparent there was no strategy of what we were intending to do. So we went through this exercise, which I can touch on, of how do we determine the highest and best use of our resources in service of a societal and/or environmental need? That’s kind of the question that we started to answer and really became my work for the past eight years, work which I love. It’s work that got me far closer to what is justice and happy to chat more if that’s relevant too, about that process.

Douglas Ferguson:

Yeah, it’s curious to me because for one, what the process was even like. I think identifying a guiding purpose like that with a really clear, “This is the question that we’re going to wrap our arms around,” I think that in and of itself is remarkable because so many folks are just kind of, “Oh yeah, we want to achieve this thing,” or they might throw some metrics at things to start a project, but it sounded like that was rooted in some real curiosity. And then also how did you even bring everyone together?

Dan Walker:

I would say too it was clumsy because I didn’t know, so now I look back and I can layer over and I can see the good things in what I did, and I can also see like, “Oh, you could have probably learned to do that better.” I didn’t know what I was doing in truth at that point, but, as you said, I had this curiosity of how do we do this? How do we marry what we have, the assets, the resources, the influence we have as an organization with these societal needs that we see existing in the world?

So really it was through a process of conversations across the entire company. Our CEO at the time was amazing, we’re still good friends now, but he really had a commitment to saying, “Sure, let’s try it. Let’s try and figure out what this intersection means and looks like.” So there was buy-in from the company, it was a prioritized conversation. Different groups from all across the organization we brought together to explore this topic and try and work through what that might be.

And in parallel, I was connected to the community leaders, so people within the space who are doing the work every day on those societal issues that intersect with the outdoor industry. So whether it’s equitable access to nature or truth and reconciliation or thinking about guardianship of the land, these areas, I was connected with those groups too so gaining insights from them as to what are those real challenges? What are those pieces and the needs from the real movements?

And so really starting to bring those two together to say, who are we as an organization? First, let’s do that work, right? Who are we as an organization? Why do we exist? So for the brand, it became really apparent that yes, they designed and built a climbing harness in some ways because they believe they could build a lighter, more comfortable harness, which is great. But the question remains, well, why build a lighter, more comfortable harness? And the root note to that is really this belief in the transformative power of connection to land. So we build this gear because it gets us in these spaces that moves us in these ways that my words fall short of explaining but when I’ve been outside, I’m a different human as a result of it. It moves me in these really powerful, humbling, respectful ways. It shifts who I am.

So once you know that and you’re like, “Well, our commitment and the reason we are here is because of this belief in the power of the land, what then are the societal needs that intersect?” So if you look at the outdoor industry, it has a very extractive relationship with the land. It takes from it and it doesn’t acknowledge at a depth that this land is indigenous land and it doesn’t acknowledge the fullness of what that means. It doesn’t respect sacred spaces, a lot of the language it uses and even celebrates denies the presence of indigenous peoples. So language around first ascension, language around wilderness, this is often celebrated in the industry, and at the expense of acknowledging indigenous peoples. So a big part of our work became that focus on truth and reconciliation. How as an industry do we take our responsibility for that and start to shift the narratives and move that work?

And then the other side, a lot of the community leaders name it far more eloquently than I do, the outdoor industry is traditionally male, stale and pale. I look at myself, people listening won’t see this, but yeah, I’m a white male from Northern Europe, it sits profoundly, that is where the industry has traditionally sat, and there’s a lot of work to do. And the question really is how do we embrace the wider we and how do we do this work towards equitable access to nature? So that really became the second area, this focus on supporting the movement towards equitable access to nature.

It’s those two pieces that have driven that work over the last eight years, and really then looking to bring that to life with a commitment that Arc’teryx or any organization is leading neither of those movements. Instead, their role is to listen deeply to community leaders and map their strategy and resources in service of it. Really, that’s the work I did at Arc’teryx, and it’s now the belief that I bring with me into Collective Imagination, the consulting work that I now do.

But yeah, I look back, I don’t know, the process, it was rough. I figured it out by speaking to mentors, community leaders, and we got it to a really good place. There’s so much, I would get there way quicker now, I know now the facilitation practices, how I would structure things, how we move it, building relationships, what’s the intent of these sessions and what are we building towards? But I got there. It definitely took us longer than it would take now, but the curiosity is always key. And even in the work that I do now, that’s what I’m trying to inspire in organizations to ask those deep questions and be open to where it goes and to work with community leaders who have that expertise. So yeah, it’s been a journey and it’s kind of nice to look back and see that, yeah, I have grown and I am more competent in this and there’s still so much for me to go in the journey of getting better at this work. So yeah, it’s been fun.

Douglas Ferguson:

Yeah. What about the power imbalances that exist when you have organizations with resources trying to work with grassroots communities?

Dan Walker:

These are good. These are not small questions. So yeah, the power, it’s the think, right? I think as you do the work more and more, you realize that the power we hold is everything. It frames who is able to determine those systems that are created. Especially as a brand, you hold immense power. In many ways, you’re a gatekeeper of resources so the grants that you provide, that is a piece. A big part of the work has been how do you acknowledge that it exists, it is a reality within the context of which we live, and how do you work beyond it too? So how do you start to move from, “We have these power imbalances that exist,” into this space of, “We know they exist, but we still want to work in partnership and we want to work in deep trusting relationship”?

I remember there was an example where we had an event, an activity with one of the partners, and we always push, I would always say in conversation, “I want to hear the honest feedback. I want to hear where we’re going wrong. I want to hear where we can get better.” And one of the partners, this is a couple of years into the relationship, shared some feedback on one of the things that was challenging in this event, “It wasn’t exactly what we wanted. We felt like there was different ways we could have done it, there were better ways we could have done it.”

And in the first instance, it’s always challenging to hear that feedback of like, oh, we kind of missed the mark on something. But it also told me we’ve been doing that intentional work the right way such that now we were starting to build relationships where we could truly hear the fullness of what’s going on and start to truly work together in deeper partnership. I think it’s critical, and it takes time. Building trust is the critical piece of work. How do you really build trust? There’s a lot of harm that’s existed between the relationship of corporations and businesses and nonprofits and community leaders, there’s a lot of justifiable mistrust there because of how historically businesses have acted.

So I think you start from that place, you have to start to build relationships from a very trusting place and slowly over time come to this position where we can move into this true reciprocal relationship, this reciprocal partnership where we share the good and the bad and we work through it together. That isn’t going to come tomorrow. If you’re just starting, there’s no way you’ll get close. I think what we heard for those first few years was, “This is great, keep doing the work,” and then you realize over time there’s a depth that is not being shared, and how do you unlock that?

And I apply that to the same things. How do we truly make people feel comfortable and supported and safe within spaces such that they can share their most preciously held ideas? That’s really what we want to hear, we want to hear the brilliance of you. And in order to do that, we need to create this safe space that makes you feel belonging, that makes you feel compelled and comfortable to share, which I think, I don’t know, that feels like a track that Voltage Control is on. I don’t know whether that tracks for you, but I think this push around unlocking the brilliance of people feels like what, I don’t know, what Voltage Control is trying to unlock in all these different contexts. So I don’t know, I’d be curious for you, is my read right? Or, yeah, how do you think about that kind of hearing people’s voices and what facilitation unlocks?

Douglas Ferguson:

Yeah, and it’s an essential component of facilitation. And I think our mission is to elevate the ecosystem at large by upskilling more people and providing opportunities for folks to really practice and grow their facilitation skills, whether it’s through certification or the community or even some of these more complex projects we’ve been finding ourselves participating in that allow us to give our alumni really in-depth on-the-job kind of experience, resume-building experience, and at the same time driving some real impacts. And it is really about how do we elevate conversations? How do we get more people in the conversations? And back to your point, hearing that things didn’t go as well as people had hoped, while it can be really disheartening to hear because you put everything into it, you really wanted things to go really well, but the fact that they’re telling you that means that you’ve done something right, you’ve created an environment where they feel comfortable telling you that. So I think that’s a keen reflection that you have there.

Dan Walker:

It totally is. And I think feeling bad is it is this work of dissolving the ego too, I think like that. And it’s a critical part as we look to show up in this world, how do we acknowledge the ego that we all hold? How do we think through that? How do we dissolve that such that we can allow this conversation to sit in a true space of what is your experience? How can I get better at this? How can we do this better together? Rather than being like, “I don’t want to listen to that, just tell me I’m doing good work.”

And I think that’s equally a part of facilitation is how do you do the self-work such that you can step into those spaces and truly create a safe environment where we all can collaborate? I think people often, and I did too, think about facilitation purely as the mechanics of how you structure conversation, how you bring them together, but it’s also this self-work that runs into life too of how do I show up and how do I make sure I’m in that space open to what I’m hearing? That feels the big piece.

Douglas Ferguson:

Yes. The success of any intervention is directly related to the internal conditions of the intervener.

Dan Walker:

Oh good, I mean, yeah, yes. It feels it. And I think I almost intuitively knew that but going through the program, it’s a conversation that continues to come up of here are the mechanics of the process, amazing. They would’ve got me to that process at Arc’teryx far faster, far more effectively, far more knowingly. But this layer of the self-work too is a thread that has constantly been hit on, how are you doing that? How are you showing up? How in the moment, in the eye of the storm when things are going poorly, how do you come back to yourself, be grounded enough that you can then create an environment where to the group you’re like, “It’s okay, we’re going to work through this, here’s where we’re going”? It is so critical. And when you see it done, it is beautiful to watch people stand in the eye of that storm calm, understood, working through, human. I mean, that’s the aspiration I guess, that’s where hopefully we’re all going.

Douglas Ferguson:

So let’s hear a little bit about Collective Imagination. I mean, what’s been some recent success stories that you’re really proud of?

Dan Walker:

Yeah, I mean, it’s fun, it’s so fun. So Collective Imagination is the consulting business I set up in the summer of last year. So I left Arc’teryx, really due to this belief in what is justice, justice being that which exists when we truly co-create the systems that we live in. I wanted to push on that. I wanted to say, “How do I find organizations trying to do this work to co-create pathways to a more just and joyful society?” That’s really what I believe at my core, I want to find organizations doing that work.

I’ve been blown away. I never intended to run a business, I never intended to do anything on my own lik this, it’s not something that organically came to me, it’s not an aspiration, it’s not something I would say I really desired or pursued, but having done it, what it has unlocked in terms of the work that I’m able to do is phenomenal. I think you name in the world what you believe to be true, and all of a sudden, I don’t know, this beautiful gift comes to you where people who are like, “That’s what I also believe. How do we collaborate on things?” It has just started to emerge. So that’s resulted in the work that I’ve been able to do.

So Burton Snowboards are doing some amazing work in this space, particularly around equitable access to nature and climate action. I got to work with them on their philanthropic strategy, so really kind of applying the same logic we did at Arc’teryx into their work, asking these deep questions of who are we? Why do we exist? Based on that, what is the highest and best use of our resources? How do we center community expertise throughout the entire process? It’s amazing, it’s a beautiful example of what it can look like in reality.

Actually, Laporte who heads up that work, the VP of Purpose and Impact there, is phenomenal. I think it’s always amazing to look at people who inspire you in the work because it can give us insights as to what are those things that I want to grow into? What are the things that I want to learn? Ashley is one of those impact leaders who I look at as, “This is what the work looks like and this is the leadership we need in the world.” So that is a plug for anybody looking and interested in the work of impact, check out Ashley and what she’s doing.

Similarly, I helped to found a nonprofit a few years back called the Outdoor Diversity Alliance. And really this sits at the heart of the outdoor industry asking that question of how do we embed equity within the outdoor industry? How do we start to do that at scale through collective action of the various brands, different brands or member companies of the Outdoor Diversity Alliance? And so I facilitated a conversation with those impact leaders from the different brands.

And from that I asked the question of like, “Okay, so we’re saying equity in the outdoor industry is what we want, what are the barriers there? Why are we not making progress on it?” And what came up really was this revelation that it wasn’t being prioritized by senior leaders. The people sat in that room were lik, “I know what I’d do. If I had the opportunity, here’s where we go. We’d center community, we’d co-create strategy, we’d work into action, and then we’d keep iterating off that. What I don’t have is prioritization by our senior leaders.” So that’s the barrier.

So the next question was, “Well, okay, well, how might we work to resolve that?” So what came up through conversation and dialogue was really we need a business case for equity in the outdoors. I’ve experienced this too, everyone within these roles is stretched and tapped and can’t get to this deeper work when they’re just trying to keep the lights on in what they’re doing. So what I did with them was they helped run a project where we brought together the very tangible business case of this work. So we’ve always had the moral imperative of the work, but in a business context that just hasn’t proved sufficient. And we say these values, that hasn’t necessarily crossed the line of where we see the work needing to go.

Instead, we started to look at these macro trends and these shifts that are really impacting the world. So we have demographic shifts, we have access to capital being more tied to the work of equity, we have future generations, both consumers and employees saying, “I demand this as part of what we’re doing and my buying decisions are my decisions on where I work will be changed as a result of it.” So we created that business case, we presented it to all the members, and now we’re figuring out how we enroll CEOs and senior leadership teams in that work to really frame that this work is not just a moral imperative, but it’s a business imperative too. There’s a demand to do this.

So again, it’s that true co-creation work, working with community leaders and business leaders to understand the needs and building together on this incremental journey towards this more just and joyful society, acknowledging that it’s generational work, it will continue long after my lifetime, but what’s that next step we can take and how can we continue to move it forward?

So those are some of the projects that have come up. And coaching too, I think a lot of people are burning in this work, they’re struggling with real burnout. The question of what’s going to happen is one that I’m hearing constantly right now, there’s a lot of political change in different countries and different contexts. What does that mean? This work’s hard, I think it’s going to get harder, what does that mean and look like? And how am I doing? I’m absolutely on fire, what does that mean? So I’ve started doing that more coaching with those impact leaders to support them through it. They’re all things I’ve experienced myself first-hand. This work is deeply challenging. The closer you get to understanding community need, the more you realize how far away we are from it.

And I think that tension of the patience needed in the work and the urgency of it is really hard to hold on the shoulders of often one individual who’s hearing all the challenges from the organization and from community and often doesn’t have anybody to turn to themselves. So that’s the space where I’ve started doing more work too. I totally love it. There are some phenomenal humans that I’m getting to work with who are doing that work. So yeah, those are some of the bits that are exciting me and then more to come, more to come, more things building, which is always great.

Douglas Ferguson:

The future looks bright?

Dan Walker:

I think so. I mean, we’ll always see. But yeah, I love what I’m getting to do. It looks bright and I think in ways I never imagined. I didn’t really know where I’m going and pieces, but it’s been stunning. And yeah, I’m excited for whatever comes next.

Douglas Ferguson:

Well, as we come to an end here, I wanted to offer you an opportunity to leave our listeners with a final thought.

Dan Walker:

Ooh, maybe don’t sit on a squeaky chair. I’d say probably take care of yourself I think is the big piece in all of it. It’s whether we look at in the context of facilitation, it’s how do you make sure you are as an individual, you are well, and you are doing that work of dissolving the ego such that we can hold space for the collective conversation? Whether it’s you are an impact leader and you are pushing this work and you’re meeting resistance to it, how are you finding wellness yourself? How are you giving yourself grace and patience and doing that work of self-care? You’re a community leader, every day you are in community doing this work, doing the hard yards of this work that often goes unthanked, unrewarded in the ways I think it should be, unacknowledged in the ways I think it should be. In all of that, how are you truly finding the grace to acknowledge yourself and to be like, “My wellbeing is critical”?

A great mentor once said this to me, and I think it’s often said, you’re only good to the movements if you’re still in them. If we’re burnt out to the point that we leave, the movement doesn’t benefit from that. So I think especially in this moment, in these last few years, I just see it rising. I mentor on the top 25 environmentalists under 25 in Canada, and we were talking about, one of the questions at the end of the closing of the sessions was, “What is the one biggest barrier and concern you see around us not making a transition to a just future and a resilient climate future?” And the number one thing by a million miles was burnout.

And it stuck with me. And I’m like, “That is the thing.” How do we, yes, push the work forward, but push that from a place of I’m well, we’re well, our collective wellbeing is taken care of? I think if we don’t get that right, we’re going to create systems that don’t serve us and the joy that I believe what I’m seeking towards. So yeah, probably that more in this moment, it feels right to take care, I’d say.

Douglas Ferguson:

Wonderful. Well, I think that’s a call-to-action for folks to take care of themselves and put on your oxygen mask first before helping others.

Dan Walker:

It’s true.

Douglas Ferguson:

Especially true for facilitators, no matter where you’re working. And with that, Dan, I just want to say it was a great conversation. Look forward to chatting with you again soon, and thanks again for jumping on the show.

Dan Walker:

So fun, so fun. I mean, I love the conversation and I look forward to catching up in Austin in a few weeks at the summit.

Douglas Ferguson:

See you there.

Dan Walker:

Yeah, see you there.

Douglas Ferguson:

Thanks for joining me for another episode of the Facilitation Lab podcast. If you enjoyed the episode, please leave us a review and be sure to subscribe and receive updates when new episodes are released. We love listener tales and invite you to share your facilitation stories. Send them to us on LinkedIn or via email. If you want to know more, head over to our blog where I post weekly articles and resources about facilitation, team dynamics and collaboration at voltagecontrol.com.

The post How Can Curiosity Drive Justice and Social Change in Organizations? appeared first on Voltage Control.

“Seeing the magic of bringing people together, setting clear agendas, and leaving with action items was eye-opening for me.”- Lipika Grover

In this episode of the Facilitation Lab podcast, host Douglas Ferguson converses with Lipika Grover, a consultant, executive coach, and facilitator. They explore Lipi’s career journey, starting from her early experiences at Accenture, where she observed effective facilitation during high-profile client sessions. Lipi emphasizes the importance of preparation, follow-up, and creating safe spaces for dialogue. She discusses managing group dynamics, particularly with chatty executives, and highlights the value of diverse voices in discussions. The episode underscores the transformative potential of effective facilitation in driving meaningful group interactions and fostering collaboration.

Show Highlights

Links | Resources

About the Guest

Lipi Grover is a leadership and resiliency coach specializing in helping individuals and teams navigate transitions and unlock their full potential. With a background in strategy consulting, sales enablement, and chief of staff roles, she brings a unique perspective to her work. Lipi empowers her clients to build emotional resilience, access their inner light, and thrive in their professional and personal lives. She also facilitates transformative workshops and coaching programs for organizations worldwide.

About Voltage Control

Voltage Control is a facilitation academy that develops leaders through certifications, workshops, and organizational coaching focused on facilitation mastery, innovation, and play. Today’s leaders are confronted with unprecedented uncertainty and complex change. Navigating this uncertainty requires a systemic facilitative approach to gain clarity and chart pathways forward. We prepare today’s leaders for now and what’s next.

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Transcript

Douglas Ferguson:

Hi, I’m Douglas Ferguson. Welcome to the Facilitation Lab Podcast where I speak with Voltage Control Certification alumni and other facilitation experts about the remarkable impact they’re making. We embrace a method agnostic approach so you can enjoy a wide range of topics and perspectives as we examine all the nuances of enabling meaningful group experiences. This series is dedicated to helping you navigate the realities of facilitating collaboration, ensuring every session you lead becomes truly transformative. Thanks so much for listening.

If you’d like to join us for a live session sometime, you can join our Facilitation Lab community. It’s an ideal space to apply what you learn in the podcast in real time with peers. Sign up today at voltagecontrol.com/facilitation-lab, and if you’d like to learn more about our 12-week facilitation certification program, you can read about it at voltagecontrol.com.

Today. I’m with Lipi Grover at Grover Consulting where she’s an executive coach and facilitator. Welcome to the show, Lipi.

Lipika Grover:

Thank you for having me, Douglas.

Douglas Ferguson:

Yeah, it’s great to be chatting here today. I always love chatting with our alumni. As usual, let’s hear a little bit about how you got your start in facilitation. Was there a moment, or does the story come to mind, how you started to just get curious about facilitation?

Lipika Grover:

Yeah, it’s a good question. Something I reflect on often is I started out my career back at Accenture in the strategy consulting team, and when I first started in consulting, I got put on a pretty high-profile client. It was a big tech client in the Bay Area. I was an analyst at the time, really in the room to support the partners and the senior managers that were there. I got to witness some incredible facilitation in action where I was just awestruck. I was sitting in the back of the room taking notes on my laptop and watching this magic come together.

In that time I really saw how the act of bringing people together intentionally, setting clear agendas, making sure you’re sticking to certain things like having parking lots and having clear structured questions throughout that time you’re together, really active engagement throughout the room. All of those different pieces and seeing it all come to life and leaving with clear action items of how the business was going to move forward was very eye-opening for me. That was the introduction for me of how I saw facilitation in action.

Then of course, as I grew in my career as a consultant, I got a chance to facilitate sessions of my own and really leaned into more of the creative side of facilitation when it comes to innovation and design, design thinking, getting to learn some of those practices from experts at companies like Accenture. That was the start of that career.

After that, I got a chance to get my MBA at Berkeley where I really, again, leaned into that interpersonal development side of facilitation, and I got to learn from incredible professors such as Mike Katz and some other folks there that really got a chance to see again how you can build deep connections with people through beautiful facilitation.

I guess this is a theme in my career is when I see people that are doing things that I feel passionate about or I feel like this is something I want to learn from, I start to follow that path a little bit and I try to figure out, okay, how can I do that? I feel the same way about how I got into coaching in terms of I got very powerful coaching and I was like, how can I do that and build safe spaces for others in that same way? That carried into my career at Mural, which is a virtual collaboration tool, incredible tool if anybody hasn’t used it.

At Mural, I got a chance to do more remote facilitation and lead sales enablement sessions for anywhere from 60 people to 300 people at times for go to market kickoff events and things like that. So I got to learn large scale facilitation remotely at Mural. Now as an independent consultant, I am getting a chance to figure out what that means for a small business owner like myself to facilitate sessions that feel authentic and true for others to build safe spaces and build vulnerable conversations with one another to build connection. I feel like a lot of us struggle with that in today’s world and we want to make sure to create more of that. So that’s been the journey so far.

Douglas Ferguson:

Yeah, that’s quite the arc. I’m going to come back to some of those early moments in Accenture, and I’m really curious about what did it feel like to be in the room as you were telling that story? I was thinking about you in the back of the room, heads down on your clipboard or what you had and just every now and then raising your head because it’s like, oh, that’s interesting. So can you maybe paint that picture a little bit more about what was catching your attention and bringing you back into the room?

Lipika Grover:

Yeah, I can almost picture it vividly right now as you’re speaking about it. I remember being on a laptop at the time, just in the back of the room, and everybody had post-it notes that they were using. So part of what my role was to do afterwards was to transcribe all the post-it notes that were in the room and put into notes and all of that. But what really caught my eye in the session itself was the amount of detail I think that went into building two days of incredible content. So I think it’s the pre-work that I was very impressed by.

Then in the room itself, seeing how people commanded the room, the facilitators and the partners at Accenture at the time that I saw were really in front of it was about 20 different executives that were all there from a large tech client. I got to see how they were able to, I think in general, executives are often very chatty, and so sometimes getting everyone to really pay attention can be a challenge for that long of a time. But really getting to see how the partners developed that safe space and that space for people to raise their hand, build ground rules, figure out how to create small group conversations as well as large group conversations, was really something that I admired about the session.

Douglas Ferguson:

So yeah, I can imagine walking in thinking, oh wow, my job’s to transcribe all these stickies once it’s all done. How did your impression of that work shift from knowing that that was what you were going to have to do beforehand to then being in the session and watching it unfold and then having to do it? The act of transcribing all that stuff, did it turn out to be the same amount of work that you expected? Was it different? How did it feel doing it versus what you anticipated?

Lipika Grover:

I think because I was paying so much attention in the room, I felt very connected to what the ideas were that being put on the sticky notes. So it didn’t feel like this, oh, now I have to go and do this extra step. Of course, handwriting was the hardest part, and reading handwriting is never something that’s easy to do. But I did feel connected to the content in a way that I was able to make sense of it afterwards, and I was able to work through what the large initiatives that we needed to build were and figure out who are the owners and that thing. So I think, again, that goes to a well-facilitated session because it was very clear to me who was responsible for which parts of the session and who was responsible for the action items after the session. So again, those are all just, I think, things that you learn by doing, and that’s something I very much have admired and tried to learn from.

Douglas Ferguson:

It comes back to the planning piece and the prep you were talking about earlier, because if we plan well and we have an eye toward the outputs we want to generate and the outcomes we’re driving to, we can collect the data in a way that’s conducive to that transcription. So I’m curious, did it play out that way where it’s like it was less work than you maybe imagined because it was structured so that the things that were generated were generated in a way that was easier to maybe map into whatever you were transcribing?

Lipika Grover:

Yeah, I would say so. I think it was easier than I expected. Of course this is many years ago, so maybe back then it felt like a lot more work. But I would say that what was interesting was that we built six month long initiatives out of that two day session. So getting to then see what work unfolds from that session, it was a strategy session. So I feel like that was really cool to see how it actually turned into real actionable results.

I think a lot of people have hesitation with these types of large group innovation strategy design type sessions because they feel like sometimes the actions don’t get done afterwards and there’s not enough follow-up that can happen. So, great, we did all these ideations and we built all these great things, but then when it comes to the work, it doesn’t actually get done. So that’s something that I learned in that session was like, okay, this is how you actually can turn this into actionable things and then assign owners to them and follow-up. It was a large transformational project, so I was part of it for every step of the way, and I got to see how it can be really effective.

Douglas Ferguson:

That follow through is so critical. No one wants the innovation theater where there’s a razzle dazzle workshop and then you never do anything with it.

Lipika Grover:

Exactly. I think in general, what we talked about a little bit before is that prep is important, but one of my colleagues at Mural, her name is Carolyn Hogan, and she had told me that you’re only as good as your prep and your follow-up. That really has stuck with me so much because I think in any facilitation or workshop that you’re doing, I think that the prep and the follow-up is ultimately what’s going to get you, one, the credibility, but also, two, the outcomes that you are trying to achieve.

Douglas Ferguson:

In fact, without the prep, it’s hard to know what the outcomes that you desire are because you haven’t identified them.

Lipika Grover:

Exactly. Yeah. I think in a lot of corporate sessions, sometimes there’s just not enough time going into that prep work or you don’t have the right stakeholders in the room to do that prep work. So sometimes that’s where we can fall flat. That’s where sometimes the innovation part doesn’t get to the desired outcomes if you aren’t able to spend the appropriate time and with the right people in the room.

Douglas Ferguson:

It’s always critical to get the right people. A lot of times that’s including people that have been overlooked or sometimes being a little bit more discerning on who we invite. I think a lot of times people get invited that frankly don’t need to be there, it’s going to be a distraction for them, or it’s just unnecessary. The more people we have in the room, while diversity is great, it’s also going to add to the number of voices we have to consider and accommodate for and design for. So being really mindful of the best folks for that outcome I think is really critical. Have you had any experiences having to think critically about who’s perfect for the engagement?

Lipika Grover:

Yeah, absolutely. I think oftentimes we know who we need in the room, and then there’s the people that we want in the room, and then there’s people that are going to maybe create noise in the room that are not actually going to add as much time. So I think that tends to be true, and it’s hard to be discerning with that, but I think purposeful inclusion or exclusion is critical to ensuring for a successful session. Yeah.

Douglas Ferguson:

Yeah. It’s interesting you mentioned people with the noise and it’s like sometimes noise is valuable. Sometimes the people that push back and create friction are exactly who you want in the room. That could be part of their criteria, but certainly folks that are pure noise, they don’t have context or it doesn’t really pertain to them, but we just like them, so we invited them or whatever.

Lipika Grover:

Yeah. Or sometimes I think people point out problems without solutions, and that can be sometimes distracting because you’re not getting to a specific point. But yeah, I do think it’s important to have people push back on your ideas. You don’t just want to call people that like you and that your ideas because that’s not going to get you to the mass outcome that you’re trying to achieve either.

Douglas Ferguson:

Nice. Yeah. One thing I wanted to come back to is you mentioned executives being really chatty, and I thought for the listener, we might just spend a moment maybe expanding on what you meant there and ways of facilitating or using facilitation to work with that.

Lipika Grover:

Yeah, absolutely. Of course that’s very much a generalization, but I think oftentimes, not just executives, honestly, this goes for almost anybody, but sometimes you think by speaking, I will get my point across and I will be able to share my opinion, but it may not even add to what we’re trying to discuss in that moment. Especially when you’re in really large groups, you need to be extremely focused on who is speaking and at what time and for how long you’re speaking. So in terms of ways to combat that, I think there are several different techniques that I’ve used in the past.

One of them, I think mostly remotely, this can be very helpful, but having some sort of timer when you’re having people share out ideas. Let’s say you’re going through a certain session, or you do little breakouts and then you want people to come back and share their ideas. Oftentimes that can go on for five minutes per pair or group. But in reality, in order for the facilitator to stay on time, we need to be able to cap that to a certain amount. So depending on the conversation, I tend to use the timer feature. I think when you set that ground rule upfront, people are more able to see the value of it, and they’re less likely to go over the time because they can respect that we’re all trying to stick to a certain schedule and we have other things that we want to achieve. So that’s one tip that I would share.

Then another one would be to use a tool, some sort of tool, any sort of virtual whiteboarding type of tool to get people to share their ideas asynchronously during the meeting first. So even we can use the timer again, but we can say, let’s say I have a question that I want to put out to the group. Instead of having every person go around the room and share, okay, this is what I think, this is what think. Having a timer on and then having people put their post-it notes or ideas into a whiteboard at the same exact time. Then as a facilitator, I can go and call on specific people based on the idea that they’re sharing. We can cluster, can group the ideas and then have people expand on them based on what they have to share. So that can be really, really helpful when you’re trying to collect everybody’s ideas but not have everyone speak at the same time.

Douglas Ferguson:

All of that I would categorize as limiting dialogue, and I think that’s an aha moment for a lot of folks that haven’t been exposed to facilitation much because when you think about facilitation, when you think about good meetings, I think it’s customarily conjures up this idea of a lot of dialogue. Yet some of the more powerful facilitation tools actually limit the dialogue. We don’t remove it, we just limit it. So to your point, time boxing so that let’s keep it in this frame, or even activities that might allow the dialogue to take a certain shape or a certain form that then helps focus it, but ultimately constrain it because, to your point, all the voices in the room all the time fighting for that oxygen, it’s not an effective strategy.

Lipika Grover:

I’d add one thing, you mentioned dialogue is really critical, or that’s what people think of when they think of effective workshop. I think it’s dialogue, but it’s also participation. I think people just want to feel like they are present in the room. I think with these types of asynchronous things, people still are required to be present the whole time because almost more so than when somebody is talking because sometimes easy to tune out when you’re in the room and one person is talking on a monologue for a long time. So by asking everybody to either journal, this could also be in person where they have to journal in their own paper based on a specific prompt question that we’re asking the whole group, and then we ask certain people to share and certain people to add onto their ideas. I think that being present is actually the way that people feel like they attended a very impactful workshop if they feel like they were fully there.

Douglas Ferguson:

Yeah, that’s fascinating. This idea of presence and walking out feeling like they were there versus something they just checked the box on, attended and split, right?

Lipika Grover:

Yeah.

Douglas Ferguson:

What are some of your go-to mechanisms for driving engagement?

Lipika Grover:

I would say always starting with something that’s maybe fun/related to the current environment that we are all going through. Some sort of icebreaker. I don’t really love the word icebreaker, but just something that starts at a neutral, but also a shared ground where people can all feel like they’re tied to whatever that question might be. There’s a whole host of different types of icebreakers that of course you all share on your website as well as so many other types of icebreakers out there on the internet. But I think one thing I would say is starting somewhere neutral. Then having a really strong session design to make sure that you’re always having people engaged in a certain activity, whether that is something that they’re doing independently, whether that’s something that they’re doing in a breakout group, whether that’s something that they’re doing in a whole group.

I think making sure there’s not a lot of dead time in there, especially timing your breaks appropriately, making sure that you’re creating a space where you’re always giving them something that they should be working on or doing, and very focused time for those things. It’s like let’s say you want to do deep work on your own, you want to put in a timer for 30 minutes or 40 minutes, and you probably get your most work done in that time during the day because you have a set timer for it.

It’s like what you said earlier about being constrained, and so setting those constraints throughout the session. Then I think a skilled facilitator will ensure that there are breaks built in and making sure that they’re also having time to share their voice. That can be in breakouts so that it doesn’t feel like it’s overpowering all of the time. So I do use breakouts quite a bit for engagement because I think having deeper, smaller conversations can be really helpful, and then coming back and sharing with the broader group is something that I find to be really impactful there.

But otherwise, I think using Mural is a huge… I can talk about that more, but I feel like that’s something that from a visual perspective, most of us are visual learners, and so engagement can also be from something that’s really visual and something that’s beautiful to look at. So I tend to put a lot of time into designing my murals in a way that has a certain theme or has some sort of excitement to it, and it carries that excitement throughout the session that you’re looking forward to what’s going to be uncovered next in that visual collaboration tool.

Douglas Ferguson:

I was going to ask about that, building on the engagement piece, because a lot of times people will ask about cameras being on as their signal that there’s engagement and then their solution to driving that is just requiring cameras on. Yet, I think you talked about giving people tasks, using breakouts, making things visual as ways of driving engagement. What are your thoughts on this whole video on, video off versus some of the techniques you talked about, which are more making things hands-on and tangible and giving people tasks?

Lipika Grover:

Yeah, I think it really depends on the size of the group in terms of the video on or off. I do think for small group sessions, it’s very helpful to have videos on. If everybody has their video off and one or two people have it on, it becomes a very, I think, a little bit strange dynamic for the group. But if everybody decides to be videos off, that’s fine too. I think you can have a pretty engaging session that way. But if most people are having their videos on, then I think it’s nice to ask for people to turn their cameras on. Of course, if it’s a very, very long session and people need to step away for a few minutes and eat or do something and turn their cameras off, as a facilitator, I usually just say, hey, if you need to just message me so that I know you’re here. That way, it’s not like you’re disappearing and I’m calling on you, and I’m in an awkward position now where it looks like you’re not paying attention. Now everybody else thinks they have the permission to not pay attention either.

So yeah, I do think that I just ask for communication if you’re going to turn your camera off. I wouldn’t compare the techniques like, oh, it’s this or that, but I do think that having some sort of visual type of tool can really build that engagement further because it can create another, almost like a third space for people to go and create connection. Yeah.

Douglas Ferguson:

Yeah. It’s funny you mentioned calling on someone when they’re not there, and it reminds me of the importance of signals. How are we collecting signals on how people are participating? The visual tools provide another mechanism for that. There’s a notion of presence. Are they in the tool or not? Am I seeing outputs from them? So video on is not the only signal, and I think that’s the trick. So many people rely on that as the only signal and the only thing they’re trying to change, I think there’s a lot of depth to your point. You’re sharing a lot of stuff there.

I want to pivot to talk a little bit about your time at Mural, and then we probably have a little time to talk about the future and what’s next as well. But you mentioned doing sales enablement, and I imagine some listeners might hear that and go facilitation and sales enablement, what does that look like? So can you tell us a little bit about how you’re approaching that from, what was the tools? I’m sure you’re using Mural, but what was the experience like? If someone wanted to use facilitation for sales enablement, how might that look? What might they do?

Lipika Grover:

Yeah, it’s a good question. I would say what we did at Mural, I can’t speak to what sales enablement looks like at other companies, but we had oftentimes weekly live meetings with the entire sales team, sometimes the customer success team as well. So it was more revenue enablement at that point, and marketing sometimes as well where we would bring everybody together. We’d have an usually really beautifully designed Mural to be able to teach certain concepts based on whatever enablement was needed at that time.

So if it was specific to, let’s say, how to do really good discovery, let’s say how to do really good discovery on certain sales calls, we would create Mural about that, and we would have certain questions that you can go into breakout rooms to do role plays on. We’d built certain spaces within the Mural for people to be able to practice certain concepts, whatever it is that we were teaching at that time. We would often use Mural as a place for you to share resources with the teams to be able to say, hey, these are a little resource hub of this is what you need to pay attention to for this week, new marketing collateral, new, anything that is relevant, new scripts for you to use in emails or things like that. That way it’s all in one place.

We tried really, I think, to make it very creative so that people felt like, again, that engagement during that time that they were together. I think sales enablement is something, or enablement in general, I think learning and development teams often are trying to figure out how do we make this time that we have synchronously as impactful as possible because these people are doing this outside of their day-to-day job. This is something that they are opting into doing. Sometimes it’s a required thing, but most of the time it’s to level up their own skillset. So making that synchronous time very impactful is the biggest thing that was on our minds is how can we make sure that people get a lot out of this time together because it’s a lot to ask them to do.

So we would think of different creative ways to use Mural or breakout rooms or other sort of engagement strategies to make the most of that time together and have people be present. Like Q&A at the end of the session, that’s just another idea, using Mural to have people put questions in at the end as well. Then we could take that and turn it into a whole session on its own of what are the topics that you’re struggling with right now? We can use voting even to figure out, okay, what are the things that are on your mind right now and how can we design a session around that? So just another idea there.

Douglas Ferguson:

So I know right now you’re focused a lot on resilience and the coaching work that you’re doing and helping build confidence and creating vulnerability with folks. Can you tell me a little bit more about how that’s surfacing?

Lipika Grover:

Yeah. So my focus with resiliency workshops is really empowering people to understand that they can do hard things and that they have all the answers within themselves to be able to achieve everything that they want to. I think so often people stop themselves from going after their goals or their visions simply because they are scared they’re going to fail and that they’re fearful that their life is going to change in a large way. We all are creatures of habit. We like being comfortable and we don’t necessarily feel comfortable extending ourselves into new spaces.

But as a coach and as a facilitator, a lot of what I do is ask people questions to help them to get to a place where they’re able to say, actually, yeah, I want that. It’s all coming from themselves. I don’t know the answers as a coach of what they want to do. My job is purely to create that space, that vulnerable space, for people to be able to talk through what their visions are, what their goals are, and get them to believe in themselves and believe that they can do anything that they really set their minds to. So that’s the focus right now of a lot of the work that I’m doing. I do this in one-on-one sessions as well as in group sessions, and so I’m excited to see how that unfolds.

Douglas Ferguson:

So the group work, how does that play out? Is this a team that you’re working with, the folks that are working together, or is it more like a public cohort where there’s a number of individuals that you’re helping just support each other in this moment?

Lipika Grover:

It’s a great question. I’m actually launching my first cohort next year or so, early next year, where we will be creating, it’s more of a public space where people can join and they’ll be surrounded with others that also have big dreams for themselves, and they have a growth mindset, and they are just needing maybe a little bit more support and accountability from others around them to get them to where they want to go.

I piloted it already, I did a resiliency workshop earlier this year in a group setting that went really well, and people really got a sense of feeling like they found that light within themselves. That was the name of the workshop was The Light Within. I think a lot of times we think, Hey, after I do this, there’s light at the end of the tunnel. We use that phrase all the time, the light at the end of the tunnel. But my whole premise is that we have light within ourselves at all times. So I just want people to be able to tap into that, especially when they’re going through maybe a change or a transition or some sort of new thing in their life. So that’s the premise of what the workshops are going to be next year.

Douglas Ferguson:

Nice. Most of the folks you’re working with individually are also in this moment of transition as well?

Lipika Grover:

Yeah. It’s mostly people who are either going through a career transition, a relationship transition, sometimes a move, all at the same time. Most of the time we’re all going through multiple changes at all times in our lives. I wouldn’t even say it’s always a very tangible change that it’s sometimes is truly like, hey, I want to step into a better version of myself, or I want to step into a new goal that I’ve been wanting to achieve, and I just need the mindset to be able to achieve that goal. So a lot of work is like, how do I get you from point A to point B? For example, if somebody is like, hey, I really want to go to get my MBA, but I’m working and I just don’t know how to make that leap, making that mindset shift is part of the work that we do, is just getting them to understand that they’re capable of doing it and that they are going to be able to achieve success in that. Yeah.

Douglas Ferguson:

How often do you work with folks that know that something’s missing, they’re not feeling fulfilled, but they haven’t been able to pinpoint what it is yet?

Lipika Grover:

Very often. I think a lot of times people feel like, especially in careers, I think a lot of times it’s like, hey, I’m in this job, I’ve been in this job for a long time. I’m starting to feel like I don’t connect with it anymore, or I just know that I’m not doing what I really want to do. That’s something I hear often. It’s like, I know this is not what I really want to do, but they don’t know what that other thing is. So a lot of the work is uncovering what that North Star is going to look like for them. Some of it is just understanding your strengths, understanding who you are as a person, what you enjoy doing, what you don’t enjoy doing. Going back to the drawing board in that space. I think a lot of times people also don’t realize that what got them to this point is beautiful, and we are grateful for it all, and it may not be the thing that is needed right now in this moment.

Douglas Ferguson:

Yeah, what do we need to leave behind?

Lipika Grover:

Yeah, exactly. What can we let go of right now?

Douglas Ferguson:

Love that. Awesome. Well, when you think about this work, the resiliency workshops, the coaching, all this great work you’re doing, where do you think it leads to? What’s this bright future? What is this North Star that of your own? Just like you’ve been uncovering for others, what is this North Star for you, as far as when you really peer out a ways?

Lipika Grover:

Yeah. Honestly, it’s a great question and it’s something that I’ve been designing for myself as I’ve started this path myself. I think I’ve also learned to surrender a little bit. Part of the North Star work is also following the leads, if that makes sense. So sometimes it’s pulling on different threads to see where we go, and we don’t always have to have this big reveal answer of what is coming up next. So while I would love to say, I have this 10-year plan and this is what I want to do with it, I think the reality is I’m following the energy and I’m following what is bringing me joy, and I’m following that path and we’ll see where it leads. I think that’s to be discovered.

Douglas Ferguson:

Nice. Well, let’s check in the future and see where it went. I love that.

Lipika Grover:

Absolutely. Yeah. One thing I can say is that the work is very impactful and the work, it doesn’t feel like work in some ways because it just feels like you’re creating a large impact on maybe a smaller number of people, and that can be really fulfilling some ways. So I just want to keep doing it.

Douglas Ferguson:

Yeah, I love that. I feel that this passion driven existence is very prevalent and common in the world of facilitation because it’s the type of career that people find through passion. It’s something that people get excited about. Some careers people get into because they’re good at it, and it’s like, I’m going to be an accountant to make a living and get paid, or I am really fascinated by models for discovering whatever, but there’s not this excitement and passion about it some other fields. I think facilitation’s one of those things that’s like, I rarely meet someone that’s doing it just because it pays the bills or whatever. It’s a passion driven field.

Lipika Grover:

Yeah. I think so too. I am curious, if you don’t mind sharing too, when you started Voltage Control, how did you feel in terms of what was your North Star? Did you have the North Star where you are today, or is it something that’s evolved and changed over time?

Douglas Ferguson:

It’s funny. I have multiple threads. I think you talking about pulling on the threads resonates a bit. I always refer to myself as a change junkie. I’m just obsessed with change, and I always invite change. I’m always curious about what’s around the corner. I did have a vision early on that was very anchored in facilitation and group process and helping people. I did not necessarily have this vision of being a certifying entity. I did tell myself though, that if we ever went down that path, I wanted to take it really seriously. That certificates wouldn’t be a thing we would just hand out as something you would get for attending a workshop. That I wanted to make sure that if we did that we’re really serious about it. It really meant something. It was pass/fail. You really had to do the work to receive it so it’d be meaningful to people. To me, it’s about staying true to my values and what’s important to me. Then just, to your point, following that path, but being true to those values.

Lipika Grover:

Yeah. It’s something that I would say I’ve seen over time is that the dots always connect later, this is true throughout my whole career. Even you asking, how did you get into facilitation? It’s like, I wouldn’t have said back when I was at Accenture that I was going to go into facilitation or coaching as a career, but the dots always connect later in terms of how you see the threads that we got excited by or that brought us joy along the way.

I think that’s one thing that if I could leave with is I think life is long, I think a lot of times we think life is short, which is true in a lot of ways in that we should be present when we are with our loved ones or with ourselves. I think that’s very true. But a lot of times we put a lot of pressure on ourselves to do everything right now and get it all done, and we have to achieve all this, achieve, achieve, achieve. But in reality, life is long and it’s almost better if we focus on one thing at a time sometimes and just see where it leads because it’ll unfold later. Yeah, it’ll all make sense later.

Douglas Ferguson:

Love that. Always ask my guests to leave our listeners with a final thought. You’ve given us one there. Anything else you want to share?

Lipika Grover:

I think one thing is just trust your intuition. I think a lot of times we don’t give ourselves enough credit that we know what we want and we know what we want out of life. So I would just say trust your intuition. Sometimes you have to quiet everything else down in order to really pay attention to what it is that your head, your heart, your gut is all telling you to do. So just silence the rest of the world for a moment and figure out, okay, ask yourself what is it that I really want? That can help guide some pretty big decisions, or at least it has in my life. Whenever I have listened to that intuition, it has turned out in a better way than I think I would have if I just listened to my head or after some sort of credible thing. I think there’s so many other things that we chase in this world, but if we quiet everything down and just listen to our intuition, we’re able to follow a different path and that path is not written. Yeah.

Douglas Ferguson:

Yeah. I love that. The thing I would add, because I love that so much, is I would just say that sometimes you can’t hear the intuition. I love this idea that you say here, the quiet everything down so you can tune into it. So if you’re like me where you hear your intuition quite often, then the moments where you can’t, it can be frustrating. I don’t know what to do right now. The thing I’ve learned through the years is when I find those moments, don’t spiral into the moment, just sit back and say, it’s okay. It will speak soon. Just be in this quiet time. Let your subconscious chew on whatever it needs to chew on because it’ll speak to you soon enough. So I think both is true, right? Quieting down the noise, but if everything’s really quiet, being okay with that quiet and just knowing that when the time’s right, it’ll let you know.

Lipika Grover:

Yeah, exactly. I think, to be honest, you asked me that question about North Star, and it’s like sometimes it can be frustrating to not have the answer where you’re like, oh, I wish I could give you a real answer there. But to your point, I think the answer will come as I keep doing it, and I think action is progress. Progress is motivation. So if you keep putting one step in front of the other, you’re so much more able to actually see where it unfolds.

Douglas Ferguson:

Love that. Excellent. Well, it’s been such a great honor and pleasure to chat today, Lipi. I really appreciate you joining me.

Lipika Grover:

Yeah, likewise. I appreciate the time and I appreciate getting to be on this podcast. To all of the listeners, just keep doing what you do and put one foot in front of the other. I feel like that is my big takeaway from today. So yeah, I appreciate being on the podcast with you, Douglas.

Douglas Ferguson:

Thanks for joining me for another episode of the Facilitation Lab Podcast. If you enjoyed the episode, please leave us a review and be sure to subscribe and receive updates when new episodes are released. We love listener tales and invite you to share your facilitation stories. Send them to us on LinkedIn or via email. If you want to know more, head over to our blog where I post weekly articles and resources about facilitation, team dynamics and collaboration, voltagecontrol.com.

The post Unlocking the Secrets of Engaging Facilitation appeared first on Voltage Control.

“If you don’t have those underpinnings of being anchored to something, it’s really difficult to do anything else. That’s just baseline sort of human functioning.”- Kellie Artis

In this episode of the Facilitation Lab podcast, host Douglas Ferguson converses with Kelly Artis, founder of Mission Identity, who empowers women through the Enneagram. The discussion highlights the transformative power of facilitation, particularly through Kelly’s experiences in the George W. Bush Institute’s Veteran Leadership Program. Kelly shares her journey into facilitation, emphasizing the importance of psychological safety, empathy, and deeper connections in group settings. She reflects on how effective facilitation goes beyond traditional teaching, fostering meaningful interactions and personal growth. The episode underscores the impact of creating safe spaces for dialogue and collaboration.

Show Highlights

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About the Guest

Kellie Artis is a passionate advocate for high-achieving women, bringing nearly two decades of expertise in communications and personal development to her role as the founder of Mission Identity. As the Director of Communications at Virtual Veterans Communities (VVC), Kellie excels in supporting military-connected students who seek to advance in their careers and personal lives. A scholar of the George W. Bush Institute Stand-To Veteran Leadership Program, Kellie is dedicated to empowering women through leadership and community engagement. She has earned certifications as a Certified Narrative Enneagram Teacher and Professional Certified Marketer, leading workshops that promote self-discovery and growth. Her work has been featured on platforms like Fox News and Military.com, where she is recognized as a respected voice in helping women achieve their full potential.

About Voltage Control

Voltage Control is a facilitation academy that develops leaders through certifications, workshops, and organizational coaching focused on facilitation mastery, innovation, and play. Today’s leaders are confronted with unprecedented uncertainty and complex change. Navigating this uncertainty requires a systemic facilitative approach to gain clarity and chart pathways forward. We prepare today’s leaders for now and what’s next.

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Voltage Control on the Web
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Transcript

Douglas:

Hi, I’m Douglas Ferguson. Welcome to the Facilitation Lab podcast where I speak with vultures control certification alumni and other facilitation experts about the remarkable impact they’re making. We embrace a method agnostic approach so you can enjoy a wide range of topics and perspectives as we examine all the nuances of enabling meaningful group experiences. This series is dedicated to helping you navigate the realities of facilitating collaboration, ensuring every session you lead becomes truly transformative. Thanks so much for listening. If you’d like to join us for a live session sometime, you can join our facilitation lab community. It’s an ideal space to apply what you learn in the podcast in real time with peers. Sign up today at voltage control.com/facilitation lab, and if you’d like to learn more about our 12 week facilitation certification program, you can read about it@voltagecontrol.com. Today I’m with Kelly Artis, the founder of Mission Identity, where she empowers women to reach their full potential by utilizing the Enneagram as a powerful tool for self-discovery, personal growth, and leadership excellence. Welcome to the show, Kelly.

Kellie Artis:

Thanks so much, Douglas. I’m excited to be here.

Douglas:

Yeah, it’s great to have you. It’s always amazing to me to watch folks that are making these transitions into coaching practices and becoming solopreneurs and really empowering the way they think about work and taking control of their destiny, so to speak.

Kellie Artis:

Yeah, yeah. It’s wild and crazy and fraught with uncertainty, but yeah, it’s something to follow your passion, I think.

Douglas:

Well, it’s interesting you mentioned uncertainty. I always like to remind folks that most things are uncertain, and a lot of times we fool ourselves into thinking that there’s certainty or there things are knowable. It is like the safe little pod around ourselves that we think that is there. It’s not really an illusion for the most part when it’s there, and so if you become comfortable with complexity and chaos, life becomes more fun and more easy to engage with. Not easy, but easier,

Kellie Artis:

Right? Yeah. You’re less attached to it and you can just kind of flow. That’s the goal. Yeah. It’s almost like an entitlement. You’re like, things should be certain and they’re not.

Douglas:

Yeah, and I wonder how much that flow comes up in the work that you do with your clients when you’re coaching.

Kellie Artis:

Oh, I mean, it’s almost constant, right? It’s always like, okay, even the Enneagram as a tool in and of itself, which I’m sure we’ll talk more about later, it’s a professional and personal development sort of framework that you can use for self-discovery and inner observation, all of these things. But almost everyone I talk to is looking for the goal, right? Okay, how do we get there? How do I achieve it quickly? How do I do this more efficient? I’m like, no, no, no. The goal is to just allow and just kind of flow and be more okay with the flow and be less limited the pursuit of something. So yeah, I mean, it always plays a part. Is it achievable? Even saying is it achievable is like it’s kind of missing the point, right? It’s enjoyment, it’s contentment, satisfaction, all of that stuff. It’s a work in progress in my own life too. Plays, I don’t know what it actually looks like or what it means, but the pursuit and the enjoyment of the work is why I do it.

Douglas :

Awesome. Well, let’s take a little step back and look at the formative moments for you. As you were starting to realize facilitation was a thing there, skillsets and tools and the discipline around it, and I think it was the George W. Bush Institute of Veteran Leadership Program. I recall you saying that was the pivotal moment for you.

Kellie Artis:

Yeah. I’ve attended all kinds of things. I’ve attended facilitated workshops before and working sessions, and many of the various groups and nonprofits and organizations that I volunteer and work with. I’ve observed good sessions and not so great sessions. Some that I’ve walked away frustrated by and some that I was like, oh, that was really great, but never put it together that that was an actual sort of framework. I thought these folks were just particularly gifted and creative and being able to gather people and convene them in a purposeful way. When I was accepted into, yes, it’s the George W. Bush Institute’s Veteran Leadership Program. They do an annual cohort where they gather. There were 34 of us I think, for our class last year, folks that are working in military family and veteran spaces, so we aren’t necessarily all connected to the military. I happen to be, my husband has been active duty for 20 years now, but gathered all of us together for a five month leadership cohort, but the day one, first session, very first session, I was super apprehensive.

I don’t know where these people are all coming from. There’s a lot of imposter syndrome. The veteran folks who have served often, for those of us who aren’t veterans, feel like they kind of have ownership of this space so often, and just by nature of being a military spouse, I feel like I’ve always kind of had to elbow my way into certain conversations like, Hey, we’re here too. We have things to say. So anyway, I came in with all that apprehension and just really almost skeptical of how this was going to all work. Was I going to get anything out of it? Was I going to be heard and noticed, and oh, so quickly. All of that was allayed by nature of the fact that we had the most amazing facilitator I think I’ve ever experienced. This guy’s name is Todd Connor. He’s a veteran and super engaged in the veteran space, does amazing work in everything that he does, but one of his roles is as the facilitator for this specific program, and I was just in awe of being able to walk into a space and literally from the first 20 minute session we had realize we’re going to be well taken care of.

This container is well made, it’s protected. We can be vulnerable. There was psychological safety established almost immediately, and I know I was supposed to be taking part in it, but I was really doing my Enneagram five thing of stepping back and observing what was happening, and from that moment on, I was just like, it shifted my project that I was working on during the cohort. It just kind of gave me this awesome opportunity to sit back and say, wow, this is how you do complicated things, gathering really diverse groups of people and coming up with something great at the end. Wow.

Douglas:

Do you remember if there was anyone in attendance there when you were in observation mode? I’m just curious if you noticed folks that were especially moved by the experience that, because often that folks come into spaces like that and have never really witnessed good facilitation before.

Kellie Artis:

Yeah, yeah. I mean, yes, you can almost categorize personify different types of people. Who are the people that are going to jive with what they’re going to support the facilitator. There are people that are kind of dissenters in the back. They’re going to critique everything. This group was no different. We had all of that, but I feel like the people that would have otherwise not been as engaged, kind of just like, I’m here. I’m going to say my thing. I’m not going to ask questions. I’m only going to give comments. I want people to hear me and see that I’m here. I think it checked them really quickly. Oh, I’m expected to engage authentically. Just example, the very first group sort of table question that we practiced or were given was, Hey, everyone at your group write this down and then share with your table what’s one thing that people often get wrong about you.

I was like, that’s profound. That right there, you’re just laying bare. Your biggest insecurity in this really sort of just sneaky way. How do people misread you? So you’re being misread, obviously, I was misreading everyone in the room because I’m making judgements, but you’re able to then so quickly say, people get this wrong about me. And then you’ve developed empathy around the table for people who now have compassion for you about this thing that you’re self-conscious about and that you probably over project for, compensate for. Anyway, I just thought it was amazing. So in a way, it had us immediately leave all the egos at the door, and they were able to somehow kind of sustain that through every gathering. We talk about Priya Parker’s thresholds when you enter and leave the space, that was a very intentional thing that was done in order to remind us every single time that we walked into the room that we were convened in, that this is the way we’re going to behave. This is who we’re going to be. We’re not going to bring in all of our rank and labels and other sort of egos into the space.

Douglas:

That sort of thing is also really powerful when you might be judging the room, especially if you hear someone say something and it’s like, oh, wow, I totally thought that about them.

Kellie Artis:

Yeah, I was guilty on

Douglas:

Several counts. They’re explaining why that’s a wrong perspective, and then it really helps everyone start to maybe just observe and think a little more versus jumping to conclusions

Kellie Artis:

A hundred percent, and I mean, I loved being able to share mine. I never share that, and I was like, oh, people think I’m aloof, and I mean, I could be perceived that way, but I’m really just trying to take it all in. I’m overwhelmed by it all. I’m more of an observer, so being able to say that and like, oh, there’s so much more to you than what I’m seeing in the moment. I loved it. I thought it was a great practice.

Douglas:

Yeah, I mean, you mentioned the aloof thing. That’s one. That’s to the point I just made really powerful for connection across the group, not only for things outside the group, but in the group especially. So because if someone is thinking, well, she’s a little aloof, but then you say that, and then they realize, they start to realize, oh, wow, she is a processor,

Kellie Artis:

So

Douglas:

She’s absorbing things in a different way. They’ll just have a different perspective on you and a different level of empathy around who you are and be able to approach you in a more connected way.

Kellie Artis:

Yeah, I think so.

Douglas:

Did you notice any of that having an influence on how folks related or connected across the group?

Kellie Artis:

I mean, so quickly. Personal stories were laid bare. It didn’t just stop at a characteristic because of shared experiences of this type of convening of people who are all connected to the military at a certain point in their career. We’ve been through the past 20 years of global war, so there were really close to the surface personal stories that came out in that literal first hour of us being together. So not only did we get the high level, this is a misjudgment that people often have about me, but here’s some of the personal context that also plays into my passion, the thing that I’m pursuing and that I’m working on right now. This is why this is important to me because it’s touched me personally. So just again, so quickly, there’s just humanity and compassion that often I think, in other scenarios and other maybe less well facilitated types of convenings would take forever for that to come up. So because we just,

Douglas:

If even,

Kellie Artis:

Yeah, if ever, right? Yeah, exactly. So the shared sort of agreement that this is how we are not going to share this beyond the group. This is our space, and this should be sacred, and just putting all that out there, making that clear, I think gave us all permission to say, okay, we can handle it. This is a group that will support us. And I mean, again, the relationships were instantly founded and forged. I mean, I can’t imagine never not being in touch with most of my cohort members because we were able to just so quickly connect.

Douglas:

Yeah. So it seems like Todd’s approach really broke some barriers down, and I’m curious, how did that shift your perspective on what facilitation could be?

Kellie Artis:

I mean, I think I thought of it before coming into that experience, and then obviously after working with Voltage, I had this idea that a facilitator is just a teacher that maybe there’s some teaching methodologies that my families, I come from family educators, so it was like, oh, this is just a learning design sort of, I don’t know. It’s something that you could implement in a classroom and help people absorb the information better or to latch onto the content or promotes understanding or comprehension. Right after this, I realized that there was just so much more to it, that there was so much more that you can accomplish and agree to and move forward together with and co-create with people. And so having that experience, but then also sort of holding separately this struggle that I had been having and something that I’d been noticing through all of my work in self-discovery and self-awareness, a lot of things that I’ve never really felt or hadn’t really felt qualified to do and handle.

So here I am learning the Enneagram. I’m passionate about it. I know a lot about it, but there had always been this hesitation to step fully into helping other people understand it because I felt like I could mess it up for them. Or what if, God forbid, they share something really sensitive or emotionally complex with me that, and I don’t comfort them in the right way. I’m not a therapist. I don’t know if I can handle that properly without causing damage. I was just really nervous about it. After experiencing and learning some of the facilitation tactics and techniques and realizing it’s more about making sure people feel safe versus fixing anything or deciding anything or teaching anything definite. It’s mostly about the space that you’re able to create during that time, how that is protected and handled and how people feel when they leave it, when they enter, when they leave was so much more important than any of the content, any of the other stuff. So it’s purpose, it’s connection, it’s all of those things. So that’s how it shifted for me. And then, I mean, gosh, I overlay now everything, every meeting I’m in, why are we here? What’s our purpose? How are we entering, where are we leaving? I mean, literally every aspect of any of the work that I do has some sort of element of the facilitation techniques and practices that I learned.

Douglas:

Yeah, it’s so helpful to get those perspectives. And I’m remembering, you also mentioned feeling imposter syndrome, which is somewhat related to what you were just talking about, and I think you were talking about it from the perspective of when you showed up for the program and even I guess ideas in your head about not being a veteran, et cetera. And I guess what specifically shifted that? You talked about getting to a point where that subsided, and so what do you think were the critical pieces that were at play that helped you overcome that?

Kellie Artis:

There were a couple of speakers that had some, I thought profound things to say that I was able to latch onto and give myself permission to pursue relentlessly what I came in with as my passion, my project initially. So we come in and you start out with an idea of a project that you want to work on during the cohort. It’s important, but it’s not the most important thing. I mean, the projects are great and have, I mean, some people have full-blown nonprofits now because of their personal leadership project, but it’s the skeleton. It’s the structure that they put the teaching and the rest of the leadership instruction onto. So we have a capstone at the end, and then they follow up and see what kind of support is needed after you’re an alumni. But I came in with a project that I wasn’t super passionate about.

It was part of one of my day job work, and it made sense. It was good enough to have gotten me a spot in the cohort that’s a part of their application process. It’s like, what are you working on? But from the start, it was enforced through all of the activities and through all of our facilitated time that it needed to be something that you’re passionate about. How are you going to make an impact? And it can be making an impact on one person. It doesn’t have to be huge and broad reaching and solving veteran homelessness. It doesn’t have to be that big or grand, right? It could be literally making an impact in your world, in your sphere, in what you can. And I was like, well, this is who I am. I can impact the lives of people like me, people who’ve gone through things like me, using my personal story, using the ways in which I’ve kind of crawled out of stuff and made sense my life and how I’ve gotten where I am.

So being able to have that constantly reinforced from the facilitator, again, purpose, it was, this is why we’re here. Yeah, we’re going to teach you all these techniques and we’re going to teach you how to do data measurement and collaboration and all of these things, but for the most part, we want to make sure that your why is always being answered. So that sort of being the central focus of everything that we were exposed to really helped reaffirm for me what it was that I was there for and how much I belonged, how much I was meant to be. The one speaker, he was an astronaut, and he came and he was talking. He gave the story. I’d literally written in my journal, by the way, another facilitation practice that we were encouraged to do every morning during our Todd Time, set some intentions, write some agreements with yourself for today.

And then at the end of the day, we would go back and reflect upon them like, okay, did you meet your intentions for the day? One of my intentions was like, I’m going to hold onto things less tightly. I’m going to hold things a bit more loosely and just see what emerges. So there was an astronaut that gave us a story about how he was doing his first spacewalk, and he was nervous about it, and before he went up on the shuttle and everything, a former astronaut wrote him an email and all it said was, loosen your grip. And so he tells this whole story about how he’s outside on the ladder thing and freaking out and didn’t want to let go, and it was paralyzed scary, and he remembered the email from the guy, and that’s all it said was, loosen your grip. So he just kind of let go and was able to have this amazing experience that he shared with us. And I was just like, well, that was for me. So not to be too dramatic about it, but that was, I think, the moment that’s like, okay, not only do I need to loosen the grip of who I think I am and whether or not I belong and whether or not this is what I’m supposed to be doing, there’s so much more expansiveness out there and opportunity if you just kind of just go with it.

Douglas:

And after that first session, you mentioned that you were so curious about what was happening and what Todd was up to you, and you were in that observation mode that you mentioned that you actually managed to get yourself on the seat next to him on the bus ride to dinner. Did that spark the original interest in Priya Parker’s

Kellie Artis:

Work? Oh, it totally did. It was the first thing you said. I was like, I know whatever you just did was amazing, and everybody’s raving about it, but you’ve got something. You’ve got a framework. You know what you’re doing. You’ve learned this. Tell me everything. Again. I’m an Enneagram five, so it’s all about acquiring information and knowledge. So I was like, how can I research this? And he was like, okay, well, so he gave me a couple of resources, and then we got to talking about, yeah, definitely Priya Parker. I ordered it on Amazon while we were driving to dinner, and as soon as I started reading through, I was like, oh, yeah, that was that exercise. That was that. So it was neat to not only see it illustrated in the book, but then also, oh, I had that experience. I know exactly what was happening there. But yeah, and then that’s when I started rethinking my project too. It was like, not only am I interested in how you did what you did, I think that would’ve just been cool anyway. But also, I can absolutely see applying this to all of my Enneagram work, because most of it revolves around group classes, workshops.

And again, back to that apprehension of I had been really nervous to convene a bunch of people, and what if they asked me a question I don’t know the answer to. I was hung up on the knowledge part of it and the expertise versus how I would just like to be able to build a safer container for people. Maybe I could just be the person to provide the space and some guidance, but there doesn’t need to be definite. It’s not math. There’s not an equation that’s either true or false. It could just be exploration. So yeah, that really helped just open my perspective on it a lot.

Douglas:

I love the curiosity. It’s such a facilitator’s mindset, isn’t it? Wanting to know how behind the experience.

Kellie Artis:

Yeah. Yeah. It was a little meta and probably annoying. That was not the point. They didn’t convene us to learn how to be facilitators, but that’s what I took away from it. I was like, ah, this could be so useful in almost any application. So

Douglas:

Well, they were simultaneously helping you dive into your why, and I would argue that if that was resonating, maybe it was exposing some deeper insights into that. Why. So I don’t know. I don’t know if it’s all that adjacent or different than what they had planned.

Kellie Artis:

True. No, that’s true. I mean, it’s definitely a realm of leadership to be able to guide a group and do that safely. And yeah, no, it was just overall great experience. I loved what I learned about all of the things about leadership and running big businesses and all of the things. But I think, yeah, that was definitely my takeaway.

Douglas:

It’s not uncommon for students to come in having already read Priya Parker’s book. What was it like for you as one of those folks who had read it previously, to go through it again with some targeted focus and also in discussion with the cohort about the text?

Kellie Artis:

I thought it was great because it was another repetition of seeing it in practice, how it works. It wasn’t just like this anomaly that I, maybe there was something just super, super duper special about Todd. There is. He’s amazing. But it wasn’t like uniquely, he’s the one person that’s born to do this work. No, it’s like it’s work that we can all adapt and use in our lives. So that was encouraging, but then, gosh, just being able to be exposed to people who also were in on it, you know what I mean? I don’t know. Again, not having not been exposed to this as a discipline, essentially, being able to then kind of say, Ooh, what are you guys doing over here? This is kind of cool. And then not only what are you guys doing and how are you doing it, but how are you applying it?

And all of the different industries and ways in which people work. I came into the voltage cohort thinking like, well, I’m not a facilitator and I’m not trying to be a facilitator. I’m not going to put a LinkedIn post up and say, Hey, hire me to come facilitate anything you want, just come. That wasn’t my intention or purpose, and I was a little worried that that’s what I was walking into, that it was going to be a bunch of people who are just professional facilitators. I mean, I’ve done this before too, with even my Enneagram training. I took a whole course on therapists how to be an Enneagram and for therapist. I’m not a therapist, but I’m like, how are you guys using it? Because this feels like something that would be helpful to know, just exposure. So anyway, came in very quickly realized that I was in the right place. Once again, that curiosity did lead to something really profound and helpful. Okay, you can be a facilitative anything. So that was one of the biggest, the coolest things for me to see, especially overlaying everything that Priya had talked about in her work, and then seeing it executed, hearing about how people execute it, hearing about the cool outcomes of sessions or different techniques from everyone in the room, from all kinds of industries, which is really cool.

Douglas:

And after learning some of this stuff, you started to integrate it into your work with military connected families and veteran students. What were some of the first changes you made and what sort of impact did you start at sea?

Kellie Artis:

Oh, gosh. I mean, the top thing is just stop starting meetings with admin. Crap. Nobody,

Douglas:

Never start a funeral with logistics.

Kellie Artis:

Yeah, logistics. It was just like, I always hate that. I mean, I’ve always hated that, but I do it. It’s one of the very first things like, no, you need a hook. You need something to grab people’s attention, and why do I deserve your time right now? Why are you giving me an hour of your life or however long? And how do I prove to you that I will use that hour well, and it’ll be well spent. So stop doing the logistics, the agendas. Setting up agreements I think has been really helpful just for me personally, for whatever reason, that has helped me step into my role more confidently. I can be really transparent about my insecurities. I mean, frankly, usually I used to do this as, I don’t know if I’m the right person to teach you all this, but here we’re going to start doing all this self-deprecating stuff.

And I realized, oh, no, we don’t have to do that, and I don’t have to sacrifice my credibility because of my insecurities. We could just all come to some group conclusions and some agreements that this is the goal. This is what we’re trying to achieve this session. I’ll do my best to guide you guys as long as you’re doing your best to participate and learn. So that helped me kind of shake off some of the issues that I’ve had around leading groups. But yeah, just being able to keep things fresh, keep it active, seeing when there’s some energy needed, not just getting stuck in the content, which is what I typically have a tendency to do, and then making sure that it anchors somewhere. Whatever the experience is, not only are we clear about what we’re trying to accomplish, but then does it resonate? Do you leave with something? Then why did I take your hour if it doesn’t? So having those things top of mind, I think just result in just such better experiences for everyone.

Douglas:

Yeah, it’s interesting. Working on the agreements can be such a nice focal point to help with intention as you’re designing the session as something as simple as thinking about, well, how do people need to show up? I mean, you can’t answer that question unless you’re really clear on your purpose

Kellie Artis :

And

Douglas:

You’re really clear on the conditions and the scenario you want to unfold in the space. And I think the number one reason so many people get things wrong or stumble is because they haven’t spent enough time thinking about that. And so to your point, the agreements are a great little hack to here, just three to five things to write down. But in order to write those down, you got to think about what’s the purpose and how do I want people to be,

Kellie Artis:

And what are you stepping away from? So I’ll give you just a quick example from my world. So in the military spouse world, so when we say military spouse, we mean we’re married to someone actively serving. A lot of military spouses have also served, but most of us haven’t, and we’re predominantly female. It’s like a 94% female ratio whenever you gather folks in the military. I mean, service members wear their last name on their chest and everyone knows what that last name is and what rank is associated with that. And just by nature of us being humans, that crosses over into the spouse world as well. So one thing that I realized really early on when particularly working with folks who are attached to people that have rank, no, they don’t have the rank themselves, but they’re still married to that person with rank. So there’s still these hierarchical things that we have to navigate really quickly. I was like, I know you guys may know each other, but I want no last names. We are not our service members. I want first names only. There will be no last names. No asking, what does your husband do? That’s not a question that is valid in this space. We don’t care. We care, but we don’t care.

It’s kind of like the shortcut for any conversation when you meet someone who’s this world. So that not only kind of alleviates the pressure from the folks who are attached to higher ranking service members, but it frees up some space for folks that aren’t to be able to be authentic and true. But then a part of that agreement also is that we don’t leave with anything that we’ve talked about here. This stays here. So being able to say, no last names really clearly, at least plants that seed of y’all, we’re not going to do that. We’re going to pretend like we’re all on the same page. We’re all on the same playing field. We’re all dealing with the same struggles, and then we can work on ourselves from there.

Douglas:

I remember you talking about revamping the veteran student orientation sessions to focus more on community building rather than, I guess cramming information, I think was how you refer to it. And so what were some of those specific changes you made?

Kellie Artis:

Yeah, so we help, in my day job, I help universities stand up their veteran support services. So part of what my role is, and my self-declared purpose as the digital community manager is to make sure students feel engaged, connected, and supported. Because if we have those three things, we have a successful student experience, and then we also have a successful career experience on the backside of school, which is everyone’s goal. We want student success, and we want ultimate mission success for those veteran students who are transitioning by way of college into the civilian world. Veterans are accustomed to being given, they call it death by PowerPoint. That’s

Douglas:

Getting briefed to death.

Kellie Artis:

Briefed to death. So anytime you say you have to come to this mandatory orientation, they know they already have a preconception of what that’s going to be. They’re super excited about it because it is just like, Ugh, here’s the number for this, and here’s, then it’s boring and rote and whatever, but however the information is important and they need to have it. So what do you do? So what we’ve shifted a lot of that session, and it’s an hour, I point to places where they can find the information, but we spend most of the time connecting. So first and foremost, we have a session called Transitioning from service to school where it’s a panel. I’ve recorded it, so we kind of play the same thing over, but it’s a panel of students who talk about the things that they’re nervous about and what they were worried about and how they’ve tried to adapt certain techniques to be able to counter that fear and that apprehension. So just right out the gate, we’re doing that same practice of what do people get wrong about you? Let’s call out the elephant in the room. Are y’all nervous? You should be. It’s hard. Let’s say we’re nervous because this population has a real difficult time asking for help. It’s just part of the nature of military service. You are either told to do it, you figure it out. There’s not a lot of

Seeking help. So we want to go ahead and squash that right out the gate. This is what we’re here for. We exist to help you, and we’re going to call you and we’re going to proactively try to help you, but we also really want you guys to get accustomed to calling us too. It makes our day, when you call us, it actually makes me really happy when you send me an email. So establishing that we spend a lot of time meeting our team. I’m really emphatic about people seeing faces. We’re not just on the phone and we’re virtual. So yeah, it’s going to be a lot of zoom, but here we are, us, we’re besties. Now you’ve seen us in orientation, and then we do breakouts where we have cool fun prompts where people can talk in small groups about what it is that they’re nervous about or what they wish they had known before they left service, or it could even just be little icebreakers, energizers, things like that. So again, we spend probably 30% of the hour not doing anything traditionally considered productive, but to me, it just feels so much more important that they have made a connection with just anybody, one other person in our virtual hallways.

Douglas:

What kind of shifts in energy that you notice?

Kellie Artis:

Well, they’re so much more engaged with our office. I mean, again, we do have a physical office in one of our campuses, but for the most part, it’s a virtual sort of, we’re here if you need us because they’re not able to walk by and come grab donuts when we have them out. So there’s often a lot of like, oh, hey, if we are on campus and do run into people, I’ve gotten like, oh, you do the orientation or you post the newsletter, or, I know I don’t know them, but that’s okay. You can be internet famous for your community, and that’s totally fine. It means that they’ve seen my face and I’ve gotten across some way that makes them know and trust me in the same way that people do business with folks online. I want the students to feel like they have advocates and allies and friends and friendly faces that are helping them navigate the system.

There’s also just there’s more of an eagerness to help other students. So we’ve never had an issue onboarding veteran ambassadors, which is a work study program that we work with the VA with. I mean, often there’s a wait list of people who want to become an ambassador because they get exposed to us so early on, and the ambassadors during that orientation that they then want to step up like, oh, I could do that. That sounds awesome. You get to meet all the people and help people and serve in that way. So there’s, I don’t know, I’m not going to say it solved all has solved all the problems. Everyone gets an A and graduates on time and all the things, but at least while they’re here, they feel like they’re a part of something and they’re a part of a community and they belong.

Douglas:

Yeah, there’s that belonging. I was thinking that earlier when you were talking about the, or I asked you about imposter syndrome and you went into a story about the NASA loosening your grip and just connecting into the content and also just the work that Todd was doing to make people feel comfortable and connected. I mean, it struck me as all of that was creating a sense of belonging, and that once you felt like you belonged, the imposter syndrome wasn’t even a consideration.

Kellie Artis:

Well, now that you’re saying it, Douglas, that’s like, yeah, I mean, if I were to think back and summarize my experience as a military spouse, even, we belong to a larger community. I still belong to the town and the community that I live in. I belong to my family, et cetera. But when we overlay all of the dynamics of our lifestyle, so the frequently moving and the shifting jobs and spending seasons of really having to intensely focus on your nuclear family, your two little kids while your husband’s deployed, that sort of thing, you can, I have noticed falling out of touch or out of feeling like I belong to things before and just how disorienting that is and how it’s just not a comfortable place to be, and no one deserves that. I mean, we all deserve to be in community, some sort of community. So I do think that that subconscious maybe consciously drives a lot. It

Douglas:

Really rocks your confidence.

Kellie Artis:

Totally. And your identity. I mean, it’s the core of who you are. If you don’t have those underpinnings of being anchored to something, it’s really difficult to do anything else. I mean, that’s just baseline sort of human functioning. So for people to ever feel like they didn’t have that, and we know our society in general is becoming more detached from each other and more detached from their communities and feelings of loss and belonging are resonating high, particularly for the community that I serve, the military spouse community, those are some of the top complaints that people have. When asked about would you recommend service to someone you love, or are you satisfied with the military lifestyle? When people say no, those are the key things and the key reasons. So there’s definitely a desire and a void there that I think if we’re all working towards some sort of goal that includes belonging in some way than we’re doing good for society.

Douglas:

And I think that’s a nice transition into the work you’re really focused on now. And that brings me to the work you’re doing now, which came up briefly. We talked about mission identity and the work you’re doing there, but specifically, I’m curious about the Enneagram insights and how you’re working with spouses and what you are looking forward to as you continue to grow that business and help folks with identity and belonging or any of these other challenges that might be well suited to the work that you’re doing.

Kellie Artis:

So with Mission Identity, I am really passionate about helping, particularly women. I am expanding my view of who I want to help serve into more the woman entrepreneur space. The professional woman who, like myself, have gotten to a point in our careers where it’s just like I’ve gotten here. I’ve just hustled and done the thing and gotten to a certain point, but now I’m reflecting. I’m not going to call it a midlife crisis. I don’t like that. But reflecting on who am I now, who am I, and what does this need to look like for the rest of my life? It’s a moment to just slow down and sort of investigate who we are, where we’re going, and what’s the impact I want to leave behind. So we’re using the Enneagram as a framework for self-discovery to help make sure that we are truly understanding who we are and the motivations behind what we do and how we feel about things, how we perceive the world around us.

And the Enneagram provides a really profoundly helpful framework for that work. So once we understand who we are and we have a strong sense of self and identity, then we can move into things like purpose and then combining self identity or self identity and purpose together within left with our perception of reality. That’s whether or not we’re seeing the world clearly, whether we’re experiencing what we’re experiencing in a way that is connected to reality or maybe distorted based on some of the things that we’ve been limited by in our experience or from our personality. And then from there, I mean, gosh, there’s contentment in that, right? There’s success, there’s freedom, and then there’s where the impact can really happen. So working with women who are mid-career farther along, et cetera, just to provide, again, the space for them to do that exploration safely without any of the ego or worried about the image or the pretense.

So I want to be able to provide that opportunity for them, provide some context and some teaching, but really do this invitation into the self-discovery in community with others. They’re, again, group cohorts. I’ll still be focusing a lot on military spouses sort of as an offshoot of mission identity. The military community is near and dear to my heart, and I am so excited to be able to provide group training exercises for them, but it actually functions as more of a piece of my story and a piece of my credibility versus now. I mean, really my inspiration into doing the work that I do, and hopefully it will inspire others, but always here for anyone who’s interested in doing the work of personal discovery and growth,

Douglas:

It’s such a strong passion for empowering others, especially women, to clarify and build confidence. So I’m just kind of curious, what would be a dream outcome for you as you continue this journey?

Kellie Artis:

Oh, dream outcome. VP Harris recently said that there are not a lot of women out here aspiring to be humble. And that quote resonated with me so deeply because I think for so long, I had convinced myself that being humble was the way to be and not the way I wanted to raise my daughter, by the way. However, we limit ourselves in so many ways and we’re often the worst offenders in capping our potential, and I can’t wait to be able to look around and see more often than not women who are not only not aspiring to be humble, but who are stepping into their greatness and their power, and just changing the world, taking control, and showing us all what it means to love and to live with purpose and to live in community. Just, yeah, there’s going to be bumps along the way, and we’re still very much learning how to do this as women. But yeah, I think that really intangible and hard to measure, but I think even seeing that on a small scale is my dream.

Douglas:

Kelly, it’s been such a pleasure chatting with you today. I could keep talking for a long time, but we have to cut it off here. So before we go, I want to just give you an opportunity to leave our listeners with a final thought.

Kellie Artis:

Be kind to yourselves. There’s a mantra in the school that I studied with for the narrative Enneagram, and it talks about having grounded presence and compassionate curiosity. I think those are valuable tenets that I try to live by and are just so important.

Douglas :

Such a pleasure. Kelly. Thanks for joining me on the show today.

Kellie Artis:

Thank you.

Douglas:

Thanks for joining me for another episode of the Facilitation Lab podcast. If you enjoyed the episode, please leave us a review and be sure to subscribe and receive updates when new episodes are released. We love listener tales and invite you to share your facilitation stories. Send them to us on LinkedIn or via email. If you want to know more, head over to our blog where I post weekly articles and resources about facilitation, team dynamics and collaboration voltage control.com.

The post How Can Effective Facilitation Transform Personal Connections and Group Dynamics? appeared first on Voltage Control.

“Take that risk, take that step forward. Don’t think about it, just do it. Sometimes you just have to take that step, and by doing that, my life changed completely.”- Tony Toto

In this episode of the Facilitation Lab Podcast, host Douglas Ferguson converses with Tony Toto, a facilitator at the Outdoor Wisconsin Leadership School. Tony shares his journey from real estate to facilitation, emphasizing the transformative power of adventure-based team-building activities. He discusses the importance of physical and emotional safety, non-verbal communication, and the role of conversation in fostering trust and collaboration. Tony also reflects on his continuous learning process and the impact of his work on participants. The episode underscores the significance of taking risks, seeking mentorship, and the lasting benefits of experiential learning.

Show Highlights

[00:05:11] First Steps into Facilitation
[00:05:58] Advice on Taking Risks
[00:08:04] Building Trust through Activities
[00:12:11] Stories of Growth and Confidence
[00:16:25] Creativity in Facilitation
[00:30:14] Community Support in Growth
[00:34:44] Common Mistakes in Facilitation

Links | Resources

Tony on Linkedin

About the Guest

Tony has facilitated more than 300 groups and positively impacted thousands of lives in his 12+ years as a professional facilitator. He takes a Facilitative Leadership approach with every group he works with. This approach opens lines of communication for all participants to engage in robust conversation, idea generation and creates a psychologically safe space for collaboration to thrive. Tony enjoys providing guidance and direction for groups to achieve their desired outcomes based on their purpose of why they’re gathering for a session.

About Voltage Control

Voltage Control is a facilitation academy that develops leaders through certifications, workshops, and organizational coaching focused on facilitation mastery, innovation, and play. Today’s leaders are confronted with unprecedented uncertainty and complex change. Navigating this uncertainty requires a systemic facilitative approach to gain clarity and chart pathways forward. We prepare today’s leaders for now and what’s next.

Subscribe to Podcast

Engage Control The Room

Voltage Control on the Web
Contact Voltage Control

Transcript

Douglas:

Hi, I’m Douglas Ferguson. Welcome to the Facilitation Lab podcast, where I speak with Voltage Control Certification alumni and other facilitation experts about the remarkable impact they’re making. We embrace a method agnostic approach so you can enjoy a wide range of topics and perspectives, as we examine all the nuances of enabling meaningful group experiences. This series is dedicated to helping you navigate the realities of facilitating collaboration, ensuring every session you lead becomes truly transformative. Thanks so much for listening. If you’d like to join us for a live session sometime, you can join our Facilitation Lab community. It’s an ideal space to apply what you learn in the podcast in real time with peers. Sign up today at voltagecontrol.com/facilitation-lab. And if you’d like to learn more about our 12-week facilitation certification program, you can read about it @voltagecontrol.com.

Today I’m with Tony Toto at Outdoor Wisconsin Leadership School, where he facilitates team building programs for all age groups from grade school through graduate school to executive groups. He is currently developing a facilitation business that will service not only team building programs, but product ideation, design sprints, creativity, innovation, meeting facilitation, and strategic planning. Welcome to the show, Tony.

Tony:

Thank you. Thank you for having me, Douglas. I appreciate your time and the ability to do this.

Douglas:

Absolutely. It’s my pleasure to chat with alumni and hear the amazing stories you all have to tell. So looking forward to really diving in. And for me, it’s always really fascinating to hear how folks got their start. So you’ve had a 10-year journey as a facilitator in adventure recreation. I’m curious, how did it all start? How did you get bit by the facilitation bug?

Tony:

I got into facilitation in a different way, I started off as a volunteer. Back in 2008, I was doing mortgages. I was in the real estate industry, and the industry went belly up with the financial crisis and I was lost. I didn’t know what to do with myself. I was kind of broke out of money. I had to have a family member take me in and rebuild myself to the point where I wanted to be. So I was out of a job for about three years because the economy was bad. I wasn’t sure what I wanted to do. So after three years, I was writing down a whole bunch of information on a sheet of paper trying to decide what excited me, what encouraged me, what I wanted to do for a new career. I just couldn’t find my place. I was lost. I was absolutely lost.

Towards the end of 2011, I said to my mom, “Hey mom, I’m thinking about volunteering at the Boys and Girls Club of America. Maybe that will get me into a new field, a new job.” And she said, “Go for it.” So I applied for the volunteer over there and I got accepted. I was in a teen center on a three-month contract. Towards the end of my contract, I looked down on the table and I saw a brochure. On that brochure had a ropes course, and my eyes exploded. My jaw dropped. I’m like, oh my gosh, I did this back in college. Through my recreation program at Western Illinois University, our instructor took us… This is an outdoor recreation class, he took us on a team building weekend. He took our class divided into three different groups, and one weekend at a time took our group out to that course.

And during that time, we had to work together using those leadership skills that we talk about, the problem solving, the conflict resolution, communication. We had to solve these activities together as a group, and I never forgot that experience and how amazing it was for me personally. So when I saw that brochure I said to myself, I want to facilitate this. So I went home. I got on the computer and I typed in ropes courses, Kenosha, where I live in, Kenosha, Wisconsin. And a site came up west of my house about 50 minutes away. So I went to their website and I went to the contact information page and I sent a message to the director. I said, here, “My name is Tony Toto. I went to Western Illinois University. I have a degree in recreation parks and tourism administration. Do you accept volunteers?” And I sent it off.

A few days later, I got a response from the director and he said, “Oh, you’re a McGowanite.” Dr. McGowan was my professor that took me out on that team’s weekend back in college. He knew my professor directly because they worked together on a committee in an association in the industry. So he says, “Yeah, we need some volunteers come on out.” So I went out there, he sent me a couple of days in May. So I shadowed a facilitator for a couple of days in May, went out there for a couple of days in June. And then one day I was out there in July and I was waiting at the top of a hill for one of the facilitators. And at this point I was really excited. I love this. This is where I loved doing because I never forgot that experience in college. So I saw the facilitator who I was going to shadow walk up the hill and she handed me an envelope. And she says, “This is from Big Dog.” And Big Dog was a nickname for the director at the program.

So I opened the envelope and I pulled out and I saw a bunch of paper was a higher packet. I was like, what? So when I saw him later on that day, I went up to him and I showed him the packet and this is what he said to me, “Well, if you’re going to show up, I might as well pay you for it.” So I became from volunteer to a part-time facilitator/tech guy. And then the next year I was with his staff full time and I’ve been facilitating ever since. So just by the power of volunteering, I got into the industry full time based on that role.

Douglas:

I once heard this advice which was, if you want to get somewhere just turn up.

Tony:

Yeah, just show up. Take that risk. Take that step forward. Don’t think about it, just do it. A lot of times people get into analysis paralysis where they’re overthinking it. Sometimes you just have to take that step. And by doing that, my life changed completely just by sending out that message and just wanting to volunteer and driving that distance just to do it, just to get in.

Douglas:

And so what was some of the early facilitation like for you when you started to lean into some of that work that was going to be volunteer work, but turned into a part-time job with Big Dog?

Tony:

The facilitation itself, I was learning. I was in a complete learning mode. And I remember what our instructor did with us back in the class and those activities. And as I was watching these activities, I’m like, I remember this so well, so vividly. And I just had to learn the style of delivering it. And I just spent that first year, that volunteer time and the part-time time just learning it and watching other facilitators. And then eventually I just started incorporating like, okay, I want to do it this way. I want to do this design. I want to try it this way. And then when I became full-time next year, I designed my own progression and my own activity set based on what I learned and based on the training that I experienced. So just by observing, asking questions and having the strong willingness to learn and grow, I developed a very successful program for my groups over the next decade plus.

Douglas:

So for those listeners that aren’t as familiar with this kind of facilitation, tell us a little bit more about what the nature of these activities, how they work, what we’re asking participants to do and the benefits they might get out of it.

Tony:

Yeah, this is adventure-based recreation team building. This is experiential learning, so learning by doing. And what we do is when a group comes in, we start it off small. We start off like simple name games, and then we start doing ground initiatives where we’re dissolving the physical barriers, getting the group start connecting and bonding, start building that trust. I dissolve an initial barrier with me so they can start trusting me and be comfortable with me, because I’m going to take them through these challenges that are going to build on themselves and become more and more challenging and requiring a lot of trust throughout the day. So what we do is I design a progression to start out those name games, go to the ground initiatives and eventually at some point we’re doing trust leans, trust falls, lifting and spotting. And then to the point where we’re lifting people sometimes 12 feet off the ground using just each other in the team. And then eventually doing some high ropes and high climbing with rock courses, rock climbing walls and zip lines.

Douglas:

So is this like rock climbing stuff where someone down below is helping provide the guideline or what is that technique called?

Tony:

Well, with the rock climbing wall there’s the belay technique, and then with the most there’s belaying. But what we do prior to that is we do it ground initiatives and some low ropes courses where we get them prepped for that type of physicality and that trust. So I start off very low, like I said, with those name games. Then I start building up from there. We start getting people foot off the ground, two feet off the ground, six feet off the ground, 12 feet off the ground and then eventually up into the climbing mode. So those activities they build upon themselves to a higher degree of trust and energy and more and more challenge.

Douglas:

Yeah, for sure. What was the pinnacle challenge when you think about the most difficult thing that you would have folks do?

Tony:

If they’re not going to climb for the day, I built them up for the 12-foot wall. What it is a 12-foot wall where the whole entire group has to get to that wall one at a time. They have to go up and over just using themselves. So when you’re going up the wall yourself, you’re pretty much surrendering your body to the team. And as a team they’re lifting you and pushing you up. And the team, the members at the top of the wall are helping you get up and over that wall to achieve that success. And once you’re up and over, you help bring up the next three people until it is your time to go back down again. Getting that trust from the beginning of those name games for the group to start trusting each other, it’s building up that support so when they’re ready to go over the wall, they have the entire support of their team and they can trust their team to keep them safe throughout that entire activity, because it’s very high energy, high trust.

And I always say, don’t let the energy get in the way of the safety. So it’s not just physical safety but it’s a mental and emotional safety, as you know with every single type of facilitation activity.

Douglas:

Yeah, those layers of safety are important. I’m curious the impact that you’ve seen when groups go back to working outside of the environment you’re working with them in.

Tony:

That is actually fascinating. I can give testimonial based on that by the groups that come out year after year, like some of the school groups and the chaperones come back. And some of the students who are in their leadership mentoring programs come back as upperclassmen who see me. And the testament is this, that the chaperones say, “Tony, I want to be in your group again because of what you did for my kids for the last several years.” So they see how powerful it is because throughout the year, these leadership programs are working together, freshmen with the upperclassmen and the upperclassmen are there to help them get through their freshman year. So by the testimonies of the chaperones coming back over and over again, and the students I see maybe from freshmen to upperclassmen, they know the power of that. It works because they are growing. I see the growth and I see the happiness in the chaperones faces based on what I’ve helped them do as a team and grow from that point.

Douglas:

Interesting. And what kind of stories are they telling you about what they notice when they’re back at school, outside of the camp or outside of the course?

Tony:

Some of the freshmen they come in very shy. For example, let’s take a leadership program, they come in shy. And over the course of the next couple of years they’re in this leadership program, and whether they stay or not stay, I’ll hear back from the chaperones saying their experience with you has given them more confidence to go through high school and do what they need to do to succeed beyond high school. So I’ve heard firsthand that their confidence has been built and it has grown based on their experience working with me on these courses.

Douglas:

Yeah, very cool. And it makes me think about how a lot of facilitation in the business space or in the community space tends to be or revolve around a lot of conversation. How much does the conversation play a role in this fairly physically challenging space that you’re operating in?

Tony:

There is a lot of conversation because the activities that we give them, they’re so challenging that the groups I give them time to take that silence to think about what they want to do. I give them that time to plan, which is a big thing. A lot of it could be trial and error, but I give them those moments to plan. And as they’re going through the plan, if they fail they got to either start over and regroup and engage in that conversation again. Or they’re talking throughout the whole entire program saying, here’s what I’m seeing, this is what I’ve done. This is what worked, let’s try this. So the conversation is constantly going throughout. But the funny thing is that sometimes when I give them these very vague, yet strict rules, if they have a mishap I will give them a consequence which is silencing the group and they have to communicate non-verbally.

But conversation either words or non-verbal is very powerful. And the chaperones love it. And even the groups love it when I silence them because some kind of magic occurs during that moment of silence when they’re trying to communicate without words.

Douglas:

Wow. Yeah.

Tony:

So conversation’s an ongoing thing, and I have a great example of this. I had a senior executive group come out one time at one of the courses I was working. And one thing they mentioned to me, the main context says… Well, actually I did a name game. I said, “I want you to say your name and a strength you have and a name and a weakness you have.” And the most senior executive in the group said, “Well, my weakness is that I’m not very approachable. I don’t like people… I’m not good with people coming up to me and talking and just I’m not very approachable in my office.” So I designed the specific activity from scratch, my own design from a base activity that I always did. I included instructions and I included consequences, and I included rules. I put the group through this and it got to the point where he was shut down. He couldn’t see, he couldn’t talk. He was reliant on the rest of the group.

They got him through the end, they got the group through the end. After we were done with this activity and after we processed, he came out and said, “Thank you everyone. Now I’m more approachable and I welcome all of you to come to my office anytime you have a problem.” Because he relied on his team to help him get to the end. My activity completely shut him down which was one of the purposes of the group, was to have them connect and bond and become closer and trust each other, because the group was in the process of a big merger with the new company coming in. So there was a lot of, not necessarily mistrust but a lot of questions to be had. But I was able to connect them to the point where this guy was just surprised by how much his team helped him in a moment of crisis in that activity.

Douglas:

Yeah. And I’m picking up on a thread of passion and deep interest in that work you were doing. Can you share a little bit about what led you to pivot from the work with the physical challenges and the ropes courses and things, to more business setting or more innovation type facilitation?

Tony:

Yeah. During my time as a team building facilitator, I saw this amazing creativity coming from people during these activities. And that always just really got my fire going, just watching the creative process happen. And I realized that going through the certification program with Voltage Control, that in any situation the creative process is there. So going into the business model, the business side or the group or the corporation side or the meeting side of it, I could still do these activities, facilitate the activities and see the creative process happen. That’s the one thing that drives me that I’m passionate about. To see these groups come together, collaborate and work together and cooperate and have that creativity thrive and shine, so they can all work at an optimal level and achieve what they want to and have that success.

Douglas:

I was also thinking about the moment you shared in the alumni story about the health crisis that you encountered, and make me think about just how often these tough moments that we go through help us discover the depth of our resilience. And I was just curious to hear a little bit more about that time for you and how much that played a role in how you were thinking about your career.

Tony:

Yes, I was obviously back out in team building in 2021 after everything started to open back up again. And in July of 2021, I started experiencing this health issue with breathing, and I found that my feet were getting swollen and I was retaining water and I just couldn’t figure out what was going on. And my mom says I was always tenacious, so I just always worked through whatever, I need to work through my issues. But it got to the point where I was having extreme breathing problems where I couldn’t speak more in two words without coughing. And I eventually went to the emergency room and they found out that I had a critical heart issue that I needed to have surgically repaired. They had to replace my aortic valve. And because I’m tenacious and because I’m a fighter, I’ve always has been, that didn’t determine me. I just knew I had to heal myself, get back to work.

I never lost my passion for facilitating, and I knew I wanted to get back into it. I couldn’t do team building right away because of my recovery, because of the restrictions I had. But now it’s been three years so I am resilient. So I healed myself back up. I put on a lot of muscle again, and I’m able to go back and do what I love as a passion.

Douglas:

So you’re back out on the ropes course with teens and young adults?

Tony:

Yeah, I’m back out there. I’ve been facilitating the summer. I got back on top of a ropes course 30 feet in the air, climbed the pole to get up there, went out to the course to help people in need. So I’m back to where I was and I’m happy I’m able to do that. The director at the place where I got my start was Owens, that Outdoor Professional Leadership School, it’s a new director now. And he knew my situation. He’s like, “Take your time. You do what you need to do. I’m here to support you and back you up.” And it was no problem for me. I just built myself back up to where I needed to be. It’s not just a physical thing, it’s a mental thing. I had a little thought in my head, I’m like, am I going to be able to do this? But I pushed myself through because I’ve always been an adventurous person. As a kid I was out there breaking bones, and playing around and scratching and bruising with my childhood best friends. So I’ve always been that type to just keep pushing myself forward.

Douglas:

What did it feel like being back in the course with the youth and getting on the top of the 30 foot?

Tony:

Oh, it felt exhilarating. Actually I mentioned to the director, I said it felt so good to be back up there again. I just recently did a two-day program with a group that I’ve been working with for years. The leader of the group saw me for the first time in five years. He was happy to see me. I did a facilitation program on the ground with him the first day, then we did the high ropes the second day. So he was happy to an experienced facilitator back with his group again. And to me, it just felt good to be up there and work the course and work with the group.

Douglas:

That’s fantastic. I’m glad you’re back at it.

Tony:

Well, it’s funny because I thought, as I mentioned in my article, was I going to lose my skills, was I going to be rusty. But once you get out… I was a little rusty when I got going again, but as I kept doing the same activities or doing the same thing over and over again, I quickly remembered how to do it. I didn’t lose sight on anything. It just happened really fast to the point where the director’s like, “Okay, I have to go down to the bottom of the hill. Tony’s going to be a site supervisor on the ground.” Oh, okay, because he trusts me. I’ve been in that course for over a decade so he knows that I know what I’m doing.

Douglas:

What advice would you have to others who might be facing similar challenges or making a pivot of some sort, exploring new things?

Tony:

Just go for it. There are times where I’ve experienced analysis paralysis. I just at this point say, if you want to try something, you have to do it. Otherwise, you’re never going to do it. Just take that step forward, even if it’s baby steps. But the biggest thing with that is surround yourself with mentors and surround yourself with people you can learn from. That’s the key to all of this. When I first got started, I just listened, I absorbed, I learned, I observed. I just took it all in. I am a question asker, so I would ask questions all the time and everybody in the industry was just so patient with answering my questions. So that’s the one thing I would tell people is ask questions because people are out there willing to help you. It’s kind of funny because the old director when he first hired me, he would introduce me, “This is Tony. He likes to ask questions.” Just because I just drilled him all the time with questions because I wanted to learn.

I wanted to know because I wanted to make my activity set for the day very powerful and impactful. And when I designed it and I tested it on a group, it worked so well based on our debrief and processing that it was a coach of a soccer team. They loved it. So I just kept doing the same thing over and over and over again to the point where I mastered the delivery and I became very good at facilitating. I was able to ask the right questions, engaged in those strong conversations and watched the group grow and thrive in the moment.

Douglas:

Yeah. So when you joined us for the certification program, you’d been facilitating for quite a while, and as you just mentioned, had built a lot of confidence around techniques. And yet when you came to us, you had that facilitation identity. And afterwards you mentioned to me that you had redefined that identity from a whole new perspective. I’m curious how that felt and what that really meant for you as far as how that identity shifted.

Tony:

Oh yeah. So the identity changed in a little bit where I realized that team building facilitation is not the only type of facilitation out there. I realized that my identity can expand and I can use this in any aspect of facilitation, whether it be in meetings for nonprofit groups, corporations, product development. So my identity is expanded as a facilitator. And I’m happy to see that with the certification program that allowed me to see beyond just the team building. So it is just what I experienced in that facilitation certification class was very eye-opening because I was introduced to a whole new world of style activities, programs, and possibilities. It’s not just team building. There’s just so much more out there that I had no clue that existed. So I’m just happy for me to continue to learn and grow and explore those opportunities.

Douglas:

Yeah. And how much of what you learned during certification has found its way into the team building work that you’re doing? So when you find yourself doing the games with youth or on these rope courses, do any of those little lessons or little shifts in the way you think about your work, have they found their way into those moments?

Tony:

Yes. Actually, I was working with a high school football team a couple of weeks ago, and I included the 1-2-4-All, the writing structure. I never heard of that until I got into the course and started researching that. So I gave them a topic and I had them all think about it for a minute. Then I had them pair up, then I had them come to groups of four. And then I had them come to the entire group and the conversation was rich and robust after I did that set up. And another thing that just happened with this two-day group that I worked with, it’s a college group, there were RAs. They were going to be RAs for the year, Residence Assistants in the dorms. And based on what I saw in the facilitation class about the power of silence that Eric talks about in the class, I’m a talker.

I was very uncomfortable with silence in my early days of facilitation. I felt like I had to give the answers. They didn’t know what was going on. I just sometimes couldn’t control myself. But eventually over time, I learned how to step back and let the group take complete control. With this group when it came to the end of the day, we just got off the higher-ups course. It was time for us to do our closing before they were going to leave for the afternoon to go back to college. I circled up the group for a final debrief, and a lot of times some groups will just debrief for five or 10 minutes. I actually got them in a circle for 30 minutes and I started off by asking them to, I said, “Okay, we just did a bunch of activities that involve leadership. You’re going back to college to become leaders. What have you learned on this course the last two days in terms of leadership, and how are you going to take that back to college and put that into play with your students and on campus?”

And I silenced them for a minute to think about it. Just complete silence, and then we had this amazing discussion with all 26 of the RAs. And then I silenced them again for another 30 seconds and I said, “Okay, we experienced some challenges out here. What challenges that you saw out here that you think you could possibly face back in school and how you going to solve those challenges? What resources are you going to use?” So I silenced them for 30 seconds, and then we had another robust conversation. So I used that power of silence. Well, later that day, I was in the office with the director and I was kind of debriefing on some key issues that I saw over the last two days when the leader of the program he came in to pay the bill, and he looked at me and he looked at the director.

He goes, “Tony, I was blown away by that 30-minute debrief that you just had. You stole my thunder. I was going to do exactly what you just did.” I said, I’m glad that you silenced the group. I’m glad that you used that power of silence to get them to think instead of just throwing out their words to have that deep thinking because on our campus, they’re going to need to do that. They’re going to have to think about those challenges and those leadership roles that they have to play without just jumping in sometimes And I want them to do that deep thinking. So he was very appreciative, and he said to the director and me, he goes, “I love the fact that you are very well-groomed and well-known facilitator in terms of your learning, your style and how you deliver, how professional you are.” So he was very happy with how professional my role was in getting his team to an optimal level for this school year.

Douglas:

That’s fantastic.

Tony:

This was our first event as RAs for the year. He also said, “I’m glad somebody outside of the group did what you did and not just listening to me all the time, because I’m going to be training them for the next two weeks. Last thing they wanted to do is hear more out of me, so what you did in that debrief is exactly what I was looking for.” So he says, “I understand the power of professional facilitation of facilitators, and you’re one of those.” So I did that based off what I learned from Eric in the class is that power of silence. And when I hit my stopwatch, I was comfortable standing there in that silence. Before I’d be like, come on time, hurry up. I can’t take the silence. But at that point I was just like, this just feels great.

It’s wonderful because it gives everybody a chance to think, especially the introverts. I’ve noticed that introverts don’t just want to say something, they want that thought before they share. So it’s also a good example of know your group, and I’ve worked with this group in the past. So know your group very well and do your pre-work with the group so you have a good strong understanding, because with our briefing notes as the groups, we get their purpose, their goals and objectives. And I read that and I design my day or two days around those briefing notes. So it’s the power of facilitation works with every group.

Douglas:

Yeah, that’s great. And you mentioned the power of community in your professional growth. Can you share a story about how the Voltage Control community supported you during a critical moment in your journey?

Tony:

Yes, actually I can. In my cohort for the certification program, when I was working on my portfolio, I was kind of lost on my last artifact that I wanted to do on there. And I just didn’t know what to do. And so I reached out to Eric and he gave me some pointers and I said, “Okay, I know what I’m going to do now.” When I wrote it out, I had my monthly partner look it over. He goes, “No, you got to do this, this, this, and this. You got to change this to this. You got to change this to that.” So I took his recommendation because he had experience on what my artifact said. So after I rewrote it, I showed it to him again, he goes, “This is perfect. He did exactly what you needed to do.” So I got that community of being able to reach out to somebody to look at your work and get feedback on it to improve yourself, plus that person providing the feedback also grows and learns from you, it’s just very powerful.

So I am very community focused because as my growth in team building, I used a lot of mentors to help me grow. And I saw that in our cohort, and I saw that in the Facilitation Lab and circle that people are out there to answer questions and help everybody grow and become successful.

Douglas:

Yeah. And you’ve been playing a really active role in the Facilitation Lab as a volunteer.

Tony:

Yeah, I enjoy it. Here’s the funny thing about me, when I find something I really like and I’m passionate about, I go guns blazing. I enjoy it. I love it. I put my heart into it. That kind of goes back to that being tenacious. I want something, so I’m going to go after it. I want to get my ideas out there. I want to help people grow and share what I know. And it’s just the power of that community is just amazing wherever you go, as long as you are tuned into what’s going on and you take an active role and part in that whole process.

Douglas:

Yeah, absolutely. It’s one of those things where you get out of it what you put in.

Tony:

It truly is because when I first got started and when I was asking all these questions, one of my old managers, he managed three different courses throughout the time I was in team building. He recently left the business back in 2021. But every single course he went to, he always brought me on because he knew that I was willing to learn, willing to grow, stay on top of my profession, stay on top of new technology, new activities, new ideas. So I’m one of those people that always stays on top of trends and technology in any industry. So for example, in the circle, the fact that Eric puts up workshop design or people putting in advice or people putting in activities and libraries and books to read, I’m all about that support and providing that as well because that’s what helped me grow. And I just want to be able to go full circle and give it back to the people that are new in the field of facilitation.

Douglas:

Absolutely. Speaking of people that are new in facilitation or even ones that have been around and are looking to take their skills to the next level, what key pieces of advice do you offer?

Tony:

That’s a good one. It goes back to the whole… So I’m a big networker. I’m an extrovert, so I like talking to people, meeting people, connecting people. I used to be in Chambers of Commerce in my old industries. I just like getting that whole connection. So I would say build your network of facilitators in any industry because we all have different experiences, backgrounds, ideas, suggestions that can be incorporated in any style of facilitation. No matter what activity you’re doing, you can always have that delivery in a certain way. So build your network, surround yourself with mentors. I always say surround yourself with people smarter than you so you can learn from them, that’s my saying. So get that network in that community of people in place so you can grow and thrive from that experience.

Douglas:

Are there any common mistakes you see people making that you want to advise folks to try and avoid?

Tony:

Yes, I’ve seen mistakes, and I hate to say it this way, but I’ve seen bad facilitation. What I would suggest is… And this happened to me, when I provide feedback… I remember one time we just got done with an eight-hour session. And the new facilitators were, I hear a bunch of complaints. I hear a bunch of arguing, I hear a bunch of this, hear a bunch of that. I was staying silent because I learned that leaders speak less like, you know what? I’m just going to let this ride. Finally, toward the end the director said, “Tony, you’ve been quiet. What do you have to say?” So I wanted to just listen to what they were saying and I said, “This is what I see.” And I shared my thoughts. And whether or not they take that with them or not, that’s up to them.

But it is challenging for me because sometimes people don’t want to hear what you have to say because they think they know the best or they think their way is working, when you clearly see it’s not or may not be working in the moment. So you kind of give them some feedback. So even I remember one time I got feedback back in 2013, I was struggling with some of my facilitation because I was still new to it. And one guy brought me up to a white board. He goes, “Okay, this is what I’m seeing out of you. This is where you need to be. This is the steps you need to take. I took that to heart.” Next thing I know, I was at that moment. That’s where I learned to talk less and listen more. So I’ve learned from my mistakes and I take on everything that’s coming to me as a learning opportunity. So that’s what I would do regarding mistakes.

So just listen to the people, listen to everybody’s… Just listen to feedback. It may not work for you, just listen to it. You may have that aha moment somewhere in the future. It’s like, oh, I understand what he said now. It makes sense in this moment.

Douglas:

Yeah, having that growth mindset and being willing to hear suggestions from anyone, it’s really valuable asset and equality to have as an individual.

Tony:

Yeah, don’t fight it. When I was doing workshop facilitation for a non-profit for a year and a half, one of the things we said was be open to feedback. Don’t fight it, don’t resist it. It may not work for you, but you may have that aha moment down the road where it will. So that’s one thing people have to take to heart.

Douglas:

And as you continue your journey, what are the things you’re most excited about with your career?

Tony:

What I’ve always experienced with what I’ve been currently doing is watching people connect, collaborate, thrive, create and grow. I’m all about that, getting them beyond that choke point where they can expand and grow to the point where they succeed. So I’m all about the expansion of ideas and having every voice heard so that everybody can learn from them, and they can work effectively after the time with me.

Douglas:

Yeah, that’s so important and quite common with a lot of facilitators feeling that way.

Tony:

One thing that I had a crisis with was this, how do I know I’m making an impact on people? I remember I was talking to another facilitator about that, and she’s had a lot of experience doing a lot of different things. She said it very clear. She goes, “Well, think of it as being a teacher. Your students leave after the year, you may never see them again. You just got to trust that what you’re doing is providing opportunities for them to grow in their future.” And actually, after having this conversation with her, I reflected on my team building days when I was doing this workshop facilitation. It’s like, yes, by the chaperones coming back out and some of the students coming back out again and hearing what I did for them the year before, shows that I am making a positive impact on a lot of people. So with all the groups that I’ve facilitated over the years which has been over 400 and the thousands of people I’ve positively impacted just based on feedback, I know that I’m succeeding in my job and doing it very well.

In fact, I remember one year I went into work one day at one location. I used to work at all these different ropes courses. I was brought on to nine, 10 different places throughout my years. And I remember I came in one day and I met this woman that worked at one of the locations. She goes, “Tony…” She said, “I got to get my daughter in one of your programs.” I said, “Why?” He goes, “Did you see what came in the mail?” I said, “No.” He goes, “Eric got this envelope full of thank you cards. Your name’s all over them.” I’m like, “What?” She goes, “Yeah.” She goes, “It’s just unbelievable the feedback they were giving you, this great feedback.” So at lunchtime I looked through all these cards. I’m like, holy cow. So I saw firsthand the positive impact I was making on people’s lives.

Douglas:

That’s amazing. Well, as we come to the close, I’ve just got a couple of questions. First is, how do you plan to continue evolving as a facilitator, and what role do you think the Facilitation Lab community might play in that?

Tony:

I’m going to continue to evolve by doing what I always do, and that’s learn, grow, ask questions, get involved, because I noticed that the more you get involved you’re just going to learn from that experience no matter what you’re doing. For example, as I volunteer in the lab and I’m putting up articles and stuff, I’m reading some of the stuff and I’m learning something new. So that’s part of my growth evolution. So that just makes me feel happy because now I have more information in my toolkit to make myself more successful for the groups and make them more successful in the end.

Douglas:

Yeah, it is amazing how just having a project or having something that needs to get done can force so much learning. It’s like if you need to post something in the hub, then guess what? It’s forcing me to go look something up that I might not have otherwise.

Tony:

Right. And when I look at some of these briefing notes, I study them like, okay, I’m going to do this. I’m going to do this, I’m going to do this. And it becomes a learning experience because based on what their purpose is. And I learned something new every single time I at the facility and I’m like, well, this worked. This didn’t work as well, so let’s just kind of tweak it this way. But through that growth process, I’ve mastered a delivery that’s just crazy good. Just got a lot of feedback, and it just makes me feel so good because I know I’m doing my job at a high level.

Douglas:

Great. That’s wonderful to hear. And to wrap things up, I’d like to invite you to leave our listeners with a final thought.

Tony:

Yeah, this is pretty much based on a lot of stuff we touched on today. One, take that step forward. I don’t care how small it is, take that mini step if you have to, because I always say and I used to do this with one of my groups, I would show them the photo of that circle where inside the circle says your comfort zone, and then the circle says where the magic happens. You have to step outside of your comfort zone to achieve that magic. So take that baby step and keep moving forward with every single step. I’ve designed stuff I’m like, I have no clue what this is going to look like. But in the end, it became very, very successful. So take that baby step, create your network, surround yourself with mentors, ask questions, and always have an open mind about any information you’re receiving. If you’re not sure, ask somebody with that experience or just get some feedback or just engage in that conversation to bounce ideas off one another.

Douglas:

Fantastic. Tony, it’s been a pleasure having you on the show, and I really enjoyed the conversation.

Tony:

I had so much fun, Douglas. Thank you for inviting me on here. I really appreciate you and your time.

Douglas:

Thanks for joining me for another episode of the Facilitation Lab podcast. If you enjoyed the episode, please leave us a review and be sure to subscribe and receive updates when new episodes are released. We love listener tales and invite you to share your facilitation stories. Send them to us on LinkedIn or via email. If you want to know more, head over to our blog where I post weekly articles and resources about facilitation, team dynamics and collaboration. Visit voltagecontrol.com.

The post How Adventure-Based Facilitation Can Transform Team Dynamics appeared first on Voltage Control.

“I think that is one of the best gifts that you can give other people is yes, we’re all just chemical biological beings at the beginning of these, and we have all the choices in the world to go somewhere else.”- Nathan Hughes

In this episode of the Facilitation Lab podcast, host Douglas Ferguson converses with Nathan Hughes, COO and co-founder of Detroit Labs. Nathan shares his journey from a technology-focused career to embracing facilitation and leadership. He discusses the pivotal role of facilitation in managing teams, especially during crises like the pandemic. Nathan highlights the importance of practice in low-stakes environments to build facilitation skills and emphasizes the need for trust and connection within teams. He also offers advice for technology leaders transitioning into management, stressing the value of redefining success and maintaining personal creative outlets.

Show Highlights

[00:01:30] Nathan’s Journey into Facilitation
[00:04:48] Communication and Change Management
[00:07:30] Integration of Facilitation into Work
[00:25:29] Acknowledging Group Tension
[00:28:02] Facilitator’s Role in Connection
[00:38:38] Involving Teams in Change
[00:41:12] Adaptive Leadership and Facilitation

Links | Resources

Nate on Linkedin

About the Guest

Nathan is the co-founder of Detroit Labs, a leading software development and consulting company known for creating innovative digital products across a wide range of industries. With over 25 years of experience in the technology sector, Nathan is a certified coach and trainer who oversees culture, strategy, and operations within the organization.

About Voltage Control

Voltage Control is a facilitation academy that develops leaders through certifications, workshops, and organizational coaching focused on facilitation mastery, innovation, and play. Today’s leaders are confronted with unprecedented uncertainty and complex change. Navigating this uncertainty requires a systemic facilitative approach to gain clarity and chart pathways forward. We prepare today’s leaders for now and what’s next.

Subscribe to Podcast

Engage Control The Room

Voltage Control on the Web
Contact Voltage Control

Transcript

Douglas Ferguson:

Hi, I’m Douglas Ferguson. Welcome to the Facilitation Lab podcast where I speak with Voltage Control certification alumni and other facilitation experts about the remarkable impact they’re making. We embrace a method agnostic approach so you can enjoy a wide range of topics and perspectives as we examine all the nuances of enabling meaningful group experiences. This series is dedicated to helping you navigate the realities of facilitating collaboration, ensuring every session you lead becomes truly transformative. Thanks so much for listening. If you’d like to join us for a live session sometime, you can join our facilitation lab community. It’s an ideal space to apply what you learn in the podcast in real time with peers. Sign up today at voltagecontrol.com/facilitation-lab. If you’d like to learn more about our 12-week facilitation certification program, you can read about it at voltagecontrol.com. Today I’m with Nathan Hughes at Detroit Labs where he is the chief operating officer and founded the business with three other founders 13 years ago. Welcome to the show, Nate.

Nathan Hughes:

Thank you. I’m glad to be here.

Douglas Ferguson:

So great to have you. It’s always fun to talk with alumni and folks doing great work out in the world. And I guess for starters, let’s hear a little bit about your journey and how you started to begin, what often people call this unexpected journey into facilitation.

Nathan Hughes:

Absolutely. Absolutely. I’m a double alumni because I started and then paused and had to go do some other stuff and then came back and finished. So I like to think that I’ve … Man, I’ve gotten a lot of face time with the facilitation.

Douglas Ferguson:

Get the benefit of multiple cohorts, building the network even bigger.

Nathan Hughes:

Multiple cohorts. Lots of friends. Absolutely. Yeah. Thanks. So right now I’m chief operating Officer, like you said, I’m in the technology side. Information technology. I started my career in the ’90s at the University of Michigan, library science, helping install database systems and things like that. I got into development. I did a lot of contracting, so did a lot of individual selling myself to win a deal and then go and hopefully do that deal well enough that they would want to hire me again and move through a couple different contract companies that collected all of us up and offered services and things like that. Traditional, maybe 10, 15 years after doing that, build up some skills, got into a little bit more leadership, a little bit more management, started managing some small software teams and then some larger software teams, and then got involved in managing software network teams and system administrators and things like that.

About 13, 14 years ago, I got an opportunity to help co-found this company, Detroit Labs, which is a services company. My whole life has been services. I’ve just always been in … I think of it as technology hospitality so I’ve always been in that side of the business. And this was a business that the first week we were talking about, we’re going to go very heavy and focus on some of the startups that were starting in Detroit. I’m in the Detroit area. Detroit Labs, the name of the company. And how all of that changed so rapidly.

And I was going to go in and I was going to be in charge of the web development side. That was some of my background. And then we had mobile development with another founder, and within about a month decided what web development in 2000 … When was this? 2011, 12, 13 years ago. Web development was very commoditized. This might not make sense for a business so changed it and focused on mobile. And we’re going to focus and do only with the startups that are in the startup community here. They’re startups, they don’t have money, and we’re trying to build a business. We want clients that can pay. We started immediately to change that and just flux and change in all these plans that we had immediately going off in different directions. And how do you keep on top of that and how do you create some consistency, some stability when you’re in the middle of that startup whirlwind?

And we’ve been doing it last 13 years. We’ve pivoted and changed the business a couple of times. When we went through the pandemic, we obviously changed like everyone else. Another pretty radical situation where we could send everyone home and work from home easily as a technology company but the kinds of services and products and things like that that we offered had to change radically because all of a sudden people wanted to buy something else. And so as you would expect, it’s been nonstop find something that works, do that for a little bit. All of a sudden it seems like it’s not working as well. Let’s change. Oh my gosh, we got to change everything again. We got to talk in a different way. We have to communicate this to a whole team a different way and move into something else and repeating that. And I think we feel like we do that pretty good. I don’t know if any organization does change management and that kind of thing. Well, but I think we do it and I’m pretty pleased with, okay. And a lot of it is because we spend a lot of time focusing on communication and message and mentoring and coaching and partnership within the company as well as partnership with our clients and all those good things.

And so there was a point when I was doing a lot of … In labs, I started out as a developer and then I got really heavy into people ops, and then I got heavy into operations. And during my people ops side, I started doing a lot more training. I actually offered up packaged training as well as putting together workshops that were specific to the kinds of things that we were doing at labs. This is what leadership means at this company and the way we structure teams or this is how we collaborate and do these kinds of projects and how do we talk to that or give presentations, workshops, etc. And I was doing that and finding out that I liked it. And then I realized I really like this a lot. This more structured piece. I was going to some training and things like that, but I was more flying by the seat of my pants just, oh, this feels like the right thing to say, or I read this book or these things in a different context. I’m going to pull that. Maybe that’ll help with the training. And what I finally realized, oh, with the facilitation, that’s what this is.

And so there was a moment when I realized I’m doing a lot of facilitation. It would be really neat to actually look into that as a real thing and understand what the heck I was doing because I bet people have already figured out a lot of stuff and really smart about this. And I think that’s when I crossed paths with voltage control. We actually partnered with you for a small project. But then I think more importantly to me, I saw … You might have just started … Maybe. I don’t think I was in the first cohort, but you just started the facilitation certification program And that’s where I landed.

I decided, you know what? I want to actually learn some of this stuff and see what I’m actually doing and maybe do it in a better way, a more professional way, more learned way. And that’s how I got involved in that kind of business. I’ve never put facilitation on a resume. I’ve never really thought of it as a skill set until that moment. And then after that I thought, oh wow, this is really a rich and comprehensive book of work and set of skills that if you know it exists and you can start focusing it, you can actually get better and practice and things like that. It’s been in my head as this is what I’m doing. Okay, let me look at that and let me see if I can get better when I’m doing my normal job, which is never, Hey, Nathan, can you come facilitate it’s, Hey Nathan, can you jump in and do this work? And in my head I translated to, oh, here’s some facilitation I’m going to do and I’m going to use these skills because I want to get this kind of result.

Douglas Ferguson:

Yeah. That’s so common. We hear that all the time with folks saying that their title’s not facilitation or facilitator, but there’s so many opportunities to bring the skills to bear, whether it’s planning out a full agenda or I’m just bringing in some little nuance to how I show up or how I encourage others to show up.

Nathan Hughes:

Absolutely. Like I said, I do a lot of change management kind of things. Throughout the pandemic I was chief pandemic officer, so the weekly meetings, here’s what’s going, here’s what we’re doing, here’s what’s happening, here’s how the company that you’re part of plays a role in this situation. But everyone’s lives were so much … It was so much different and so much more expanded. Everyone was thinking about something else. And so here’s how much we need you to think about labs while you’re working and dealing with all these other things. And so there was a lot of that kind of work. And then client services is always a … I don’t want to say it’s a battle, but it’s a struggle between, hey, here’s what we’re going to build for you client and the client saying, Hey, here’s what I thought you were going to build and they never match.

And then how do you bring them together and how do you show that okay, what we’re building is what you want and how does the client show us, okay, what you’re building needs to change in this way. That’s always happening. And then there’s just normal people stuff. Talking about roles and titles and how do people bring their identity to work and how do you get that information. So there’s always these fundamental aspects of the work that I’ve always been involved in as a very high-tech person for most of my career. There’s always been this need to be better at that. In a room how do I try and have a conversation that includes all six of the people in the room, not just the loudest or the most comfortable two? Or in a communication that I’m putting together how do I leave it open so it’s collaborative, not an ultimatum or not cut and dry or open myself up to risks in the future? There’s all of these bits that have always existed and I feel like I have a better chance of getting some of them right now that I’ve studied some of this stuff and practiced some of this stuff in a formal way.

Douglas Ferguson:

You mentioned practice a couple of times now. What does practice look like for you? How does that show up for you and your team I guess?

Nathan Hughes:

So I’ve always had this notion that, or this feeling that when you’re at whatever you’re trying to do, but when we’re talking about work. So when you at work, there are things that are important, but they’re hard to practice because they only show up maybe when the stakes are the highest. Or if you’re a emergency crisis management kind of person, you need a crisis and emergency in order to practice some of these things. And so practice to me is okay, I’m looking at that and identifying this is a thing that happens at the best time or the worst time or whatever your context around that is, or at the highest stakes, how do I fake it and create opportunities to practice that aren’t make or break. I don’t want to do it for the first time when it’s the most important time.

And so throughout my professional career, I’ve identified places where, oh, you know what? I’m afraid to do X, Y, Z. I want to practice that. How do I figure out? I used to be really, really nervous, afraid of public speaking or I don’t know, talking in a podcast conversationally where the questions aren’t fully written out and I didn’t have my answers. How do I practice that? I don’t want to practice it only when I have to get up on stage and give an important message to … And so I did improv. I identified the fact that, okay, improv is a way to practice this, and if you fail at it, who cares? No one. If you’ve ever been to your friend’s improv show, they fail all the time and who cares? It’s just how it is. That’s literally the goal of it is to get up on stage and be able to do something so terrible and realize, oh, that’s fine. I’m still alive, I’m still going. And then sometimes it works really good and that feels good and so I practice that.

Facilitation. Same thing. The certification program introduced a bunch of workshops and games and structures and these formal role plays that were practiced for facilitation for me. I’ve never introduced one of those specifically in 100% like, “Hey, we’re going to do this exercise.” But through that practice, I have 100% absolutely done the exact same work with a couple group of folks and said, “Okay. You know what, I want you two to go out and write this on this sheet, and you two go and write it on a different sheet and we’re going to come together in five minutes.” A very familiar workshop exercise that I’ve practiced in a low stakes way. And in this point this was a negotiation of I feel like I should be promoted and I’m not being promoted. Like high stakes. People’s entire identity and their salary and comp and feeling of value is able to play with those things that I practice in a way that I don’t feel like I’m completely making it up on the fly.

I do a lot of one-on-ones or I do a lot of intervention stuff or that. So I went through a full certification program for coaching. And in my head I’m not necessarily opening … I’m putting my shingle up to be an executive coach or a performance coach or business coach. What I want to do is practice that in a safe way so that when I’m actually doing it for real with real people and real people stakes, I’ve gone through and gotten some practice. I actually have a fairly full full-formed idea of practice when I say that in a very intentional thing. I play a lot of games that are role-play and improvisational. Same reason. To practice being up and getting a really hard question from a teammate. Hey, you said this two weeks ago, but this other thing happened. Why? And being able in that moment to feel the flush and the heart rate and realize, oh geez, I feel like, oh, I’m going to give a defense. And then okay, no immediately switching gears and being able to give a legitimate, a valid response to that. And I feel like I get that right about half of the time because I practice a lot of it and I think half of the time’s pretty good. As a human being in a stressful human being world, I’m pretty okay with half of the time.

Douglas Ferguson:

How have you found your team to respond to the idea of role-playing and that kind of practice? Is that something that they’re receptive to?

Nathan Hughes:

Here’s a funny thing. In business, in professional life, you don’t say, “Hey, you want to role-play something.” You start talking about vision and vision is role-play. Hey, here’s what we would love the world to look like a year from now, 10 years from now, next week, whatever. It’s pretend. It’s pretend with facts and basis but you’re just making it up. That’s role-play. What would you do in that world? And put yourself … And so role-play is just one-to-one, it’s vision and it’s future strategy conversations. We want to change, we want to be something different tomorrow than we are today. As soon as you start describing what that is, and then start even more importantly, describing or putting yourself in the place … Okay, what are you doing in that new world and what is your role and how are you interacting with someone who’s also in this new world? That’s role-play.I wouldn’t say role-play. I wouldn’t use those words. I don’t want people to associate it with other things that they’re grabbing onto because that word’s going to mean something. But that’s all that is. It’s the same skill.

I’m convinced that your body doesn’t know the difference. When it starts flooding, like stress hormones or excitement or nervous energy, whatever that is, those stress hormones are the same, whether you’re doing role-play because you’re on stage at an improv show or you are talking to 40 people in your company, or you’re giving the most important sales presentation to this client. Your body floods you with the same hormones, the same chemicals. You can learn how to deal with that differently and it feels the exact same way so the practice really works. So vision is role-play. Fantasy football is role-play in some ways.

All these things, they’re very similar kinds of dynamics at the fundamental core. I think you can put them into different contexts based on what you’re doing with them. Oh, I’m at work, so I’m going to do that. I’m at home, I’m talking to my 17-year-old daughter who just graduated high school and is trying to … We’re role-playing. But I’m not saying role-play saying, oh, I see you’re looking at these three or four different programs at this college. What are you thinking about? What do you see yourself doing? Oh, if you had that job, what’s the day look like? You know what that is? It’s role-play. That can be role-play fundamental as a tabletop RPG, but it’s a different context. It’s okay, pretend you’re in the future, different world, everything looks different. What do you want that to look like? And now how do you start putting the plan in place or what steps do you need to get there?

Douglas Ferguson:

Yeah. It’s interesting that you talk about the chemicals. I think that’s such an important part of practice. And as we think about the scenarios we might put ourselves into to simulate future scenarios, how do we encourage the physical elements? How do we make sure that it simulates it well enough that our body’s actually starting to create that cocktail so that we’re learning to be comfortable with it, learning to notice it, learning to make peace with it maybe?

Nathan Hughes:

So I personally think it starts with one thing you just said is learning to notice it. At certain levels we are all responding very similarly to different signals in the environment. Same chemicals or same general chemicals. Some people have … Well one, some people know that that happens. That’s a basic level. Oh, I am not thinking this. It’s just a body response. So when that happens in my thinking brain, I don’t get to say, oh, I want this or I don’t want this, or I’m proud of this reaction, or I’m not proud of this. We haven’t even gotten there yet. It’s just chemicals. And knowing that is a good first step. And then the second step is to notice those chemicals. Like this recording about five minutes in, maybe even earlier, I felt some of the chemicals that I feel when I start getting … It’s nervous or it’s fear, but then it just gives me energy. Because I’ve learned to notice it and say, “Oh, that’s happening. Here’s what’s going to happen. I’m going to talk maybe too fast if I don’t notice that. I’m going to run out of breath because I talk even way too fast if I don’t notice it. But also if I notice it, I can use that energy and that can be excitement just as much as it can be fear.”

So the second part, after knowing it actually happens, there’s a biological thing, that piece of knowledge. The second part is learning to recognize it, notice it in yourself. And I don’t know. I know what it feels like in my body. I can’t really say, “Oh, this is what it’ll feel like in someone else’s.” I don’t know that. But I can say you probably feel it as well if you’re trying to learn this. Recognize that and then pay attention to what you do with that.

Don’t start immediately saying, oh, I’m going to change. Just pay attention to what you do. We’ve all learned from our upbringing how we … I think maybe a lot when you were kids, whatever your kid situation is, it trains you, teaches you how to deal with a lot of these reactions, responses. Maybe if you were a sports kid, you’ve got that context. If you were in a house that was maybe more difficult, you’ve got that context. If you were in a rich upbringing, a poor upbringing, whatever. As kids, we learn. But as adults, I think we sometimes don’t reexamine and relearn that stuff. And so the third piece is realize you have natural responses to that physical, that physicality. They don’t have to be those responses forever. And sometimes you have to make a specific effort. So I’m going to change how I feel. You know what? I don’t want to run out of breath anymore. When I’m in this kind of situation because I get so excited I just let it go and run away. So I’m going to notice that and I’m going to change my specific behavior to do something else. You can relearn those things.

Or when I feel this way, I’m not immediately going to jump and start throwing fists and fighting because that was what maybe I did at 14. Well, guess what? That’s an easy one because at 18, 19, 20, you can’t do that. Society stops you. But very few things are that clear. It’s usually not that line. And so as facilitators, I think we get to notice that, recognize that, use that in ourselves, but then we also have to know that others that are in the room are going through that and help or facilitate that moment, that energy. Oh, wow. You get a group of folks that are the smartest in the world at something, and then you introduce something different and they’re the dumbest in the world and you’re like, “Oh, what happened?” Well, so much changes in the room as soon as you introduce something that’s new and people are unfamiliar with. So as a facilitator, if you know that you can work with that and you can adjust to that I think in a productive way. Maybe I shouldn’t have said dumb.

Douglas Ferguson:

You really got me to thinking there and this idea that the noticing is so important and also the conversation you have with yourself around what you’re noticing. I think a lot of times once we label something and interpret it to be a certain way, that sends us into a path. And if we take that path, it may not lead us to where we want to go. So for instance, re acknowledging that, oh, what I’m feeling could be labeled as excitement, not fear, not anxiety. And so simply reframing it and having a different conversation with ourselves. And then I love that you steered it toward the group as well. So realizing that people in the room are having similar experiences or reacting to, interpreting things and helping the group renegotiate with themselves and maybe with each other, how they’re reacting to the things and making it normal to be able to have these kinds of conversations.

Nathan Hughes:

Normal. And even just flat out talking through. You’re in a room and you’re trying to do a in-person, stand-up, physical exercise. You want people to stand up and do something and people don’t want to. It’s just people won’t want to. Unless you have this magic room of people that have been doing this and they love that kind of … If you have a bunch of theater students that have been doing their own work together and it’s a troop, oh, sure. But in case you don’t have that, being able to just say, “And no one’s going to want to do this and a lot of you might be feeling it in your body right now that you don’t want to. Same as me. That’s fine. So just notice that, recognize it. Maybe use that energy to be a little bit more silly or more wild or more free with what you do up here.”

I think being able to recognize that or things as simple as, “Wow. You just said that.” In a meeting. Maybe I’m in an operations meeting, client meeting. “Wow. You just said that. You know what? I am so upset about that. I’m so angry. I want to take revenge on that. I’ve noticed that, I’m going to change that because this isn’t what … That’s just came up. And so I’m going to do something totally different.” Especially if you have a modeling role. If you are at a level where people look and maybe look to you to identify how. If you can say, “Yeah, I have this reaction and I’ve decided I’m going to do something different with it because that natural reaction is not going to serve.” Maybe that original caveman reaction of, oh, this is because it’s a saber tooth tiger that’s going to eat me and so this is why I feel, and I have that same energy, but it’s not. I don’t know. It’s a mobile app that’s slower than it should be. There’s no saber tooth tiger out there, so I’m going to do something else.

Showing people that that’s okay, and that’s normal I think that is one of the best gifts that you can give other people. Is yes, we’re all just chemical biological beings at the beginning of these, and we have all the choices in the world to go somewhere else. And in terms of facilitation, like biological facilitation, just noticing, acknowledging and speaking to that, it’s so powerful.

Douglas Ferguson:

Absolutely. Even in a room, if things get tense, oftentimes the tendency is to pretend it didn’t exist, change the subject, move on. Actually taking a moment, just like we need to notice in our bodies when we’re having a personal response, if there’s a group response or someone’s experiencing something in the room that’s created tension or uncertainty, just taking a moment to say, “I’m noticing that …” X, Y, Z. Fill in the blank. “How does everyone feel about that? What does that mean?” And allow the group to then do some group problem solving together. Turn it into a dialogue where we notice together. It can create a lot of opportunity for better understanding, better collaboration, and better empathy. Because we can really start to get at the core of like, well, why did that surface and can be really powerful. I think way better than to sweeping under the rug.

Nathan Hughes:

Oh, and the connection possibilities with that as well.

Douglas Ferguson:

Oh yeah.

Nathan Hughes:

We all know that you go through a very difficult whatever together as a team. That team is so strong. hey can individually be on the opposite sides of everything. They would never be friends, they would never hang out, they would never whatever. But you set a group of people through a very difficult situation, they start and get through that difficult situation together. Why are they so tight? Why are they so strong? I think because that creates so many situations for all of that to be stripped and for that raw reaction and response to be bare, to be visible, and to see that that’s okay. And no one’s going to kick you out of the group. No one’s going to send you to the side. Everyone’s going through that. And once you see that, you trust, you get this feeling of trust and this feeling of connection. It might take a year to develop that in a more calm, normal way. Might take two weeks to do that in a really difficult project that you’re in the trenches with someone together.

And I think one-on-one, that’s also a place where this comes in. A lot of times, oh, we’re the facilitator. You know what that means? I’m the boss. I’m in control. Oh, I’ve got to have the answer. Oh, you know what? The movie moment, Independence Day president speech. That’s what I have to end every session with. And the goosebumps and everyone’s cheer … No. It’s not true. It’s not true at all. And sometimes the best thing that I can come up with one-on-one … Maybe in a group, but one-on-one when someone’s just dropped something is telling them wow. All I can think to say is, I have this … My whole body, I feel like I’m on fire just hearing that. Tell me more. I don’t have anything else. I don’t have any insight to that. All I can do is share and connect how that has impacted me or that connection with someone else. And I don’t need anything other than that. I don’t need to give them any of the words and some logic or some solution. That’s hardly ever going to be the thing that really works. All I can do is show them, yes, I’m also human sitting on the other side of you, and this is the humanity that I am feeling and it’s on display.

Douglas Ferguson:

You talked about the team or creating opportunities for them to be more wild and free. I’m curious if you have any stories that exemplify the team rising to that occasion?

Nathan Hughes:

So in terms of a workshop, there’s a workshop that I used to do. Haven’t done it in years. And I learned it from … Oh my gosh. Where is this? Harvard Business School? They had a negotiation workshop and I went years ago. Six, seven, eight years. And the idea is you have everyone stand up, there’s some physicality of it. You have a room and you need a group and you present a question to the group. And I haven’t done this in a while, so it might be fuzzy. But basically the question is, Hey, here’s corn. Everyone knows what corn is. And is corn a vegetable? Is it a grain/ is it a fruit? And I think there’s a fourth. Whichever one you move different corners or whatever. And so the intent of this is to show the power of a group or one person in a group having a strong opinion and how that affects. And then you go through a couple rounds of debate, mini debate.

We think it’s this because. No, we think it’s that because. And the spoiler on this … I hope I’m not spoiling corn for anyone. The spoiler is there is a definition for corn that fits every single one of these things. It is a plant, it is a vegetable. The FDA will define it in all of these different ways. It is a grain versus plant, versus … So anything anyone said is right. But what happens in the room as they’re up … And their whole bodies are engaged because you have to move around and you have to come in. It’s intentional. You bring them all into the center to debate a certain thing, and then they move. And so you have detractors that move to a different corner and the whole room is like, “Ooh, look at that.” And one group usually collects the most and they’ve won. And then you just put up all the boring government pages and words that say, oh yeah, every single person is right because there’s no definitive.

And what happens? I think the energy around that and what you do up in the front is prep that group to use the group dynamic as something that motivates their behavior. So you open it up. You’re trying to break down some of these, oh, I want to stand as … No. You see someone, they give a good argument, go over there. Jump ship immediately, and this and that and do. And so that workshop or that little exercise is something that I love because it does lean so heavily into what it feels like when you are in a group doing something as a group with your brain and your body and how that energy can be so dynamic.

Douglas Ferguson:

Yeah. Even just getting people to move around.

Nathan Hughes:

It’s so hard.

Douglas Ferguson:

Is an amazing thing to do. And it can be hard as you say, but if we can get people doing it, the more they embody something that you connect to it in other ways. It comes back to the chemistry stuff we were talking about earlier.

Nathan Hughes:

There’s another thing that I have done a couple of times with certain teams. You know you … Whatever it is. It’s a meeting, it’s a group, it’s something recurring. And you’ve got the same people that show up and this is more physical space. But same group shows up, physical space, sits down. The place they sit down that very first meeting is the place they will try to sit down for the rest of their lives. Until they’re in the grave they will want that same spot. And what I’ve done, and what I’ve noticed is sometimes … I do a lot of change management. Sometimes when you do change management, the first thing you need to do is signal that it’s time for change. Changing seat is such a violation of the norm and the status quo that I believe that nothing … It’s one of the most powerful ways to signal yeah, we have to do something different and we’re starting off by, you can’t sit in that same seat. And you have to sit somewhere else. And it’s nothing. It’s so meaningless. It doesn’t matter. This is a meeting room. This isn’t someone’s desk, office, chair, whatever. It’s just we’re in this meeting room and you always sit next to her this or so that.

The physicality of it is so important at even the most minor, meaningless, smallest levels, people get so upset and so offended at that smallest … And that’s the intent. Because I’m sitting up there saying, yes, we have to dramatically change. We can never do the same thing that we just did. And it starts here with that’s why I’m on this side of the room versus that, or that’s why I’m this seat and everyone … Because that model in your head has to break it. It has to start breaking somewhere. And as facilitators, I think one thing that we need to do is look for the ways that we can drive whatever we’re trying to achieve in a room. Whatever we’re trying to help a group or a team move towards with all of the different senses. And we talk a lot about the visual side and the sound side, but the physicality is harder in a more remote world, but the physicality is just as important and sometimes more important because it is stunted in a lot of our white-collar professional lives. And so any little bit of physicality is like a gigantic bolt of lightning.

Douglas Ferguson:

Yeah. The seats a fascinating thing. There’s a strong sense of identity when it comes to where you’re sitting. There’s a reason why people bring their photos of their family and decorate their little area. It’s their little slice of the office that they’ve planted a flag on. But there are other ways that identity shows up and it has a big impact on change management because if people have created some roots around their identity in this place, that needs to shift now because there’s some change coming that can be really scary for folks. They feel like they’re having to sacrifice that piece of their identity or they’re getting uprooted. I’m curious how much you’ve noticed these things or if you have some interesting facilitation, style tactics that help with people as they’re struggling with that identity shift.

Nathan Hughes:

That’s a good question. That’s a big one. Because you’re right. It is fundamental to change management. If you’re doing something that’s worth a change management process, it probably means it’s big enough that it’s important and it counts in some way. It might count towards titles or promotions or raises or something performance. And it is responsible for results that matter. Why would you do a change management process to change something that doesn’t matter? And so knowing that you’ve got to prepare yourself for that. There are a couple of things that I see. And one is getting down to the bare metal in terms of transparency around what you’re trying to achieve. I think what I’ve learned is it’s seldom worth spending a lot of time talking about why the old thing needs to change. But sometimes that’s the trap. You feel like, oh, I’m going to explain why the old thing didn’t work or was bad or this or that. And all you’re doing is re-centering and focusing on and making sure that that old thing is still the center of attention.And so what I’ve learned is I have to do all of that work, but only on the new stuff. Here’s why. Here’s what we’re going … Here’s where we’re … And I think in terms of change management, you never rely on someone just knowing.

So whenever I’m doing a change management process, I’m listening in my head and things I’m writing. Did I use just? Oh, it’s just this. Oh, that’s a warning. Simply. Oh, that’s a warning. I’m assuming. Any assumption obviously is going to be wrong because any group is going to have every one of those beliefs and your assumptions in a change management process become deviations or invalidations of identity as minor or as innocent as you think they are. You are insulting someone if you accidentally invalidate their identity.

And so I’m looking for places where I’m assuming it’s going to be simple or obvious, straightforward. It’s just going to be that. I’m looking for that kind of thing. And I need to keep painting a picture of here’s why and what we’re doing. Here’s what we’re trying to achieve, here’s what we’re trying to change for this result. And the result is very important. We want to make this thing happen this way. And showing how that world might look when that change has happened is super important. So what is my role? What is my job? I’m this and you’re going to make this change in how we do … I don’t know. I’m a project manager. I’m going to make this change in how we price projects. How do I … Okay. I know that we price projects wrong, but it’s still a way that I know and I’m comfortable with. What am I doing in detail? And that’s so hard because a lot of times you don’t know yet. You’ve got to go through the change manager, but you have to be able to talk through it. You have to be able to show this.

And then I think every change management process needs to have a very dedicated and intentional mechanism to assign out parts of that change management process to the actual folks that are impacted. We need this result. I need you to figure out how this thing works as part of that.

Douglas Ferguson:

That’s so key.

Nathan Hughes:

And this other person, you or this role, I need you to figure out how we get to … You know what? The change is we need to go from 63 over here to 92. That part of it, please figure out how to do that. Also, I’m going to tell the organization, you’re in charge of doing that. I’m going to rally up all the support you need because you’re not operating on your scale, you’re operating on a strategic scale, not an individual scale. So people need to support you and people need to and it’s visible. I need you to do this work. And when that happens, I am validating and judging it based on does it get me to the result? I’m trying my damnedest to get rid of that oh, I’m in charge. So let me look at how you’re actually doing it and give you all the judgment there. I’m trying not to do that. Now I’ll look at it and if I know it won’t work for some reason, I might try to carefully … oh, this is … Yes that. Whatever. But a lot of times, I would say more often than not, that’s not the problem. Is the actual change … We want to get to this result, let me look at how that’s working and involving folks very intentionally and specifically in getting to the … Do I do that all the time? No.

Douglas Ferguson:

That plays a role too in the everyday facilitation stuff. Because if we’re not clear on the results we’re seeking, then people can’t step in with novel ideas of how to shape the future and they’re just slaves to whatever vision or whatever tactics you have already laid out.

Nathan Hughes:

Exactly.

Douglas Ferguson:

And that’s tiring. Anyone who’s leading them that way must be exhausted all the time.

Nathan Hughes:

Yeah. I have come across a couple and I just watch in awe. Like, wow, you have the energy to really direct and mandate all 90 little details of … Okay. Bless you for that, but I could never even comprehend that. That’s so much work. And you’re right, it’s only going to be as good as that person. And a lot of times that person is pretty good. They’re in that position because they were pretty good. But no one person is pretty good forever and no one person’s pretty good is always better than a few people’s innovation and best. And so you’ve got to be willing to take that risk in opening that up in order to get better results.

Douglas Ferguson:

I couldn’t agree more. And we could carry this conversation on for a very long time. It’s been really fine, but we do have to bring it to a close here. And as we wrap up, there’s a couple of things that I’d love to hear your thoughts on. One is you’ve got this unique background as a technology leader, as someone who’s made these pivots from purely creating, developing, launching technical products and services to thinking about people ops and then all this change management work. And so I’m curious what advice you might have for technology leaders and just this importance of adaptive leadership and facilitation. And also maybe just a final thought. So what advice do you have for other technical leaders and then how do you want to leave our listeners today?

Nathan Hughes:

So for other technology folks that are maybe like me directly … I used to work for a living writing code and now I no longer do that. I don’t know if I have advice, but the thing that I will acknowledge is you’re exactly right. You’re absolutely right. It was so much fun writing code and it was so satisfying to have that direct feedback that I did a day’s worth of work and did something for real and now I can see it. At the end of the day, something has changed. It is so different and I will say so much more difficult to find value or find satisfaction as you get away from that direct one-on-one. So there’s an acknowledgement that I’m going to offer up that you’re exactly right. It was a lot easier and sometimes a lot more directly fun to be that.

And so if you want to expand up and out in more management or more leadership or more strategy or more whatever it’s called in your world, you’ve got to do two things. One, you have to readjust and understand how you’re going to find satisfaction and value out of much less direct and much more abstract results. And how are you going to find that personal satisfaction when you can’t take responsibility for anything really that’s going on because it’s a team that did it, or it’s these other folks that are … It’s this or it’s this process running and etc. So there’s that.

And then the second bit is fill that gap of direct creation with something. Anything. You need a hobby. If you’re a direct technology person moving into leadership management, you better get yourself a hobby where you can be a direct builder of something else. And I don’t care if it’s a hobby, you’re still in technology or it’s a hobby … Woodworking is mine. Or it’s a hobby … Something. You’ve got to keep and create for yourself a way to directly contribute so you can have that little selfish bit of satisfaction of your thing that you do. And also continue to work on how do I value and how do I enjoy the larger, less directed work that I am achieving results in. So that’s what I would say if you’re in my spot and that’s what I’ve learned for me.

Douglas Ferguson:

Wise words.

Nathan Hughes:

I think a final thought is you can change how you react and respond to this biology. Like this point that we were talking about, my final thought is I think it is possibly the most powerful thing you can do to rewire and retrain your body and your brain to abandon the ways that you’ve learned in the past as a child or whatever … All of us survived childhood. None of us get through child. We all survived childhood. So the way that we survived childhood, retraining yourself to use those exact same responses. Take those skills, take those strengths forward, but then decide how you want those to be in your actual professional world, your adult world, your different in your non-child world. My final thought is there’s nothing more powerful and satisfying than being able to do that. And you’ll be doing it forever. You never get to stop doing that, but that’d be my final thought.

Douglas Ferguson:

That sounds like a worthwhile journey. Thanks for being on the show, Nate. I really appreciate it.

Nathan Hughes:

Thank you. This was fun.

Douglas Ferguson:

Thanks for joining me for another episode of the Facilitation Lab podcast. If you enjoyed the episode, please leave us a review and be sure to subscribe and receive updates when new episodes are released. We love listener tales and invite you to share your facilitation stories. Send them to us on LinkedIn or via email. If you want to know more. Head over to our blog or I post weekly articles and resources about facilitation, team dynamics and collaboration. Voltagecontrol.com.

The post How Can Facilitation Transform Leadership in Times of Change? appeared first on Voltage Control.

“I take the opportunity to build culture and connection with that team to make them stronger. And that’s something that’s really rewarding for me—when I leave the process to see after nine months of working with them that this team is much more close, more connected, and trusts each other more..”- Julie Baeb

In this episode of the Facilitation Lab podcast, host Douglas Ferguson speaks with Julie Baeb, a Senior Consultant at Team Works. Julie shares her diverse career journey from advertising to architecture and eventually education, where she developed a STEM enrichment program. They discuss pivotal moments in Julie’s facilitation career, including a transformative professional development session and a human-centered design retreat she led for school administrators. Julie emphasizes the importance of icebreakers, observation, and incorporating play and movement into sessions to foster engagement and psychological safety. The episode highlights Julie’s commitment to building strong, connected teams through thoughtful facilitation.

Show Highlights

[00:01:40] Building Community through Facilitation
[00:07:02] Authentic Experiences and Human-Centered Design
[00:13:38] Observation and Innovation
[00:15:38] Observation in Facilitation
[00:22:28] The Role of Play and Embodiment
[00:29:59] Facilitating Children vs. Adults
[00:36:17] Challenges in Building Culture

Links | Resources

Julie on Linkedin

Julie on X

About the Guest

Julie Baeb is a senior consultant at TeamWorks where she partners with education leaders in public school districts to improve systems and experiences of students, staff and families. Innovation and creative problem-solving is a common thread throughout her career, with past roles in advertising, architecture and K12 education. Julie holds a Masters Degree in Architecture from Rhode Island School of Design and a bachelor’s degree in Journalism and Mass Communication from Drake University. 

About Voltage Control

Voltage Control is a facilitation academy that develops leaders through certifications, workshops, and organizational coaching focused on facilitation mastery, innovation, and play. Today’s leaders are confronted with unprecedented uncertainty and complex change. Navigating this uncertainty requires a systemic facilitative approach to gain clarity and chart pathways forward. We prepare today’s leaders for now and what’s next.

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Voltage Control on the Web
Contact Voltage Control

Transcript

Douglas Ferguson:

Hi, I’m Douglas Ferguson. Welcome to the Facilitation Lab podcast where I speak with Voltage Control certification alumni and other facilitation experts about the remarkable impact they’re making. We embrace a method agnostic approach so you can enjoy a wide range of topics and perspectives as we examine all the nuances of enabling meaningful group experiences. This series is dedicated to helping you navigate the realities of facilitating collaboration, ensuring every session you lead becomes truly transformative. Thanks so much for listening. If you’d like to join us for a live session sometime, you can join our Facilitation Lab community. It’s an ideal space to apply what you learn in the podcast in real time with peers. Sign up today at voltagecontrol.com/facilitation-lab. If you’d like to learn more about our 12-week facilitation certification program, you can read about it at voltagecontrol.com.

Today I’m with Julie Baeb at TeamWorks, where she works as a senior consultant. Julie partners with education leaders and public school districts to improve systems and experiences of students, staff, and families. Welcome to the show, Julie.

Julie Baeb:

Thanks, Douglas. I’m really happy to be here.

Douglas Ferguson:

It’s great to have you, and I’m really looking forward to our conversation. What an amazing pre-show chat we had and lots of interesting things to dig into.

Julie Baeb:

Yeah.

Douglas Ferguson:

So just to start off, I’d love to hear … I know that there’s a couple of moments that were pivotal for you that informed your opinions, your early experiences with facilitation. I’d love to hear a little bit more about those.

Julie Baeb:

Well, I started out … well, I’ve had kind of a meandering career path. I started out actually in advertising, ended up getting my degree in architecture, worked in that field for about 10 years, and then found myself in the world of education, K-12 education, and taking my background in architecture, I started creating and building a STEM-based enrichment program for elementary school students. I had an opportunity to attend a professional development session in my district. It was like a summer institute kind of deal, and I signed up and sent in an application. I was able to make it into the course, and I was really excited to take this learning, apply it to what I was doing with my STEM students. I remember right away just being captivated by even just the opener, the way she built community with the group.

It was fun and I thought … I’m like, “Wow, okay. So these meetings and sessions, they don’t have to be boring and sit and get. They can be interactive and with this group of …” We have a big district, there was a lot of different people in the room I’d never met, and by the end of the session, we’re exchanging phone numbers and we’re feeling connected and how can I support you in this work? But she did that. She facilitated that for us, to the point where we were each other’s cheerleaders. But that doesn’t just happen. You can’t just walk into a room and … someone needs to facilitate that experience. So I remember thinking to myself, “Huh, that’s cool. This is a job. She goes around in districts and does this”, and it stood out to me.

Douglas Ferguson:

What do you think was so pivotal to creating that environment that allowed people or just encouraged people to start exchanging phone numbers and have those deeper connections? Do you remember any qualities or anything that showed up for you there?

Julie Baeb:

I mean, it’s silly, but I think there is power in those welcome activities, connecting icebreakers. People gloss over those and are like, “That’s silly”, and “Oh, that’s lame”, but actually it’s super critical and not only to do it in the opener, but in the closing activity to bring the community. I remember … I think one of the activities, and it was at the end, we just did a rock, paper, scissors tournament where you do rock, paper, scissors and the winner moves on to find someone else, but the loser is the cheerleader. So you stay behind the person and you keep cheering to the point where the two finalists and everyone is literally screaming and cheering and clapping for the two finalists, but it actually carries over. It actually is like … you leave, “Yeah, way to go”, and you’re excited for the winners and also just excited to help each other and support each other.

I don’t know. It created a vibe in the room by doing that, and I think sometimes we overlook the power of that. And so it’s critical to me, even when I facilitate a really simple Zoom meeting, I always have some kind of connection, welcome activity opener, I think it’s really important, and a close. I always want to have a moment to reflect on what happened in the meeting, so that’s important for me to do that too.

Douglas Ferguson:

I know, there’s this kind of undercurrent of icebreakers are cheesy, and why waste our time doing that? But to your point, so powerful if they’re done well. I don’t know if you noticed this, but you talked about when you remembered the occasion about each other’s cheerleaders, and then you’re telling a story about a rock, paper, scissor tournament where the whole point is to be cheerleaders.

Julie Baeb:

I know.

Douglas Ferguson:

So that’s funny use of words there, right?

Julie Baeb:

Actually, any activity in any of my workshops, I think I spend a lot of time thinking about how is this connected to the purpose of the session. It’s not trivial or just, “Oh, that’d be fun. I literally think about”, okay, how can I drive the message through the activity … just like rock, paper, scissors, and we have each other’s back, you don’t know it at the time, and it’s just fun, but to have an activity that supports ultimately the purpose of the session, that’s something that I think about a lot.

Douglas Ferguson:

A super important point you brought up there, and it makes me think about something we often talk about, which is if you do something with a group and you turn to the group afterwards and say, “Why did we just do that?” and everyone’s like, just staring back at you with blank stairs, then maybe you should turn that question inward. So I think it’s super critical, and probably the number one reason why people don’t like icebreakers is because folks just grab something out of the grab bag without thinking much about it.

Julie Baeb:

Right, and I think the other thing … I mean, with my background as a STEM teacher and an architect, I’m really visual, and it’s important to me to make every experience authentic. When I was a STEM teacher, we’re not just going to talk about bridges, we’re going to build a bridge. I mean, my coworkers would go … I’m like, “You guys, we should build a real bridge. We should walk on it.” I was always thinking that way, like how can we make this as real as possible, life-size as possible? That’s always going through my brain. That still carries over in my work with adults.

I mean, there was a session I facilitated. When I was still in education before I was a consultant, I facilitated a day long human-centered design retreat for the administrators in our district, so all the directors, department leads, the superintendent, all the principals in the district, they come together for a two-day retreat in the summer, and one day was focused on human-centered design, and I facilitated for them to just identify problems in their department or in their school, and then to be able to solve that through rapid prototyping. Then they presented to the whole group what they came up with.

But as I was thinking about this and collaborating with my colleagues on designing it, I’m like, well, the first step in human-centered design is gaining empathy for your user. Well, we can’t just guess at that. We have to have kids. So I literally arranged for a busload of kids, and they came to this offsite location. It wasn’t even at the district, it was in the middle of the summer, and it was quite an effort, but we got a busload of kids, and it was a surprise. So they didn’t know the kids were coming. So I do this big intro on what HCD is and do our welcoming activities, and then we talk about empathy, how to gain empathy, ask them to write some questions. What would you ask a student regarding this problem that your department or your school is facing?

Then literally doors open and the kids came in and sat down with the administrators, and then the administrators had an opportunity to interview those students. Then later the kids actually collaborated on the prototype and got to listen to the presentations of the solutions at the end of the session.

Douglas Ferguson:

I love that, and as a huge fan of prototypes, super curious, what was the nature of the prototype? Prototypes can take on all sorts of forms, and so I’m curious in that moment, what kind of materials was it made out of and how did it take shape?

Julie Baeb:

I’m a big fan of prototypes too, Douglas, and being a former architect, I’m all about build it, make it and then that will tell you what you need, right?

Douglas Ferguson:

Yes.

Julie Baeb:

I mean, prototypes are not just to get information, the test from the user, it’s also for the designer. As you make it … I used to tell my students, your hands have brains. So sometimes you overthink and you’re like, “I don’t know”, and you’re trying to put this thing together. Sometimes you just got to start working and you got to start making it, and then it will tell you, it’ll inform you as a designer what to do next. So in that particular session, and it was a super-fast sprint, I did do everything from pipe cleaner’s paper, make a model to act it out. So I encouraged them to do just a play it out, show us. So put a name tag on, make a costume.

One of the building and grounds team had … it was regarding vape detectors in the bathrooms at the high school, but they play out a whole scenario with someone’s the student, someone’s the … the alarm goes off. So they played it out. They literally played it out, and I think some people too, there were some scheduling, things about bell schedule or changing the schedule, so they drew out the schedule. So it was just like … but everything, when you actually create it, when you actually make it, when you write it down, when you build it, then there’s something to respond to. So those students could look at the prototypes that the administrators made and say, “Oh, yeah, but that’s not going to work.” So I’m a big fan of prototypes, and I still try to implement or build that into the work I do at TeamWorks now today through different design change facilitation work that we do. It’s important.

Douglas Ferguson:

It reminds me of building physical things like woodworking and whatnot. It’s like if you’ve got 50 pieces to cut, you’re probably going to cut one piece and make sure that it fits and that you didn’t transpose a measurement or something, right?

Julie Baeb:

Oh, yeah.

Douglas Ferguson:

And once you’ve got confidence, then you can kind of do things at scale, you can move faster. This idea of hands having intelligence I think is really neat.

Julie Baeb:

It helps me. I think because when I was in architecture school, I was an overthinker. I mean, I still maybe am a little bit, but I went into that experience. I had to stop overthinking. There was a deadline. I had a model I had to produce by 8:00 AM the next day, and I just had to make it, and I learned a lot from that. I apply a lot of that now, that just don’t overthink it, your hands have brains. Just start building the slide deck. Just start making the thing.

Douglas Ferguson:

I love that you had them acting things out, and there’s a method in Liberating Structures called improv prototyping. It’s basically a structure, loose structure, around this idea of, well, if we engage in some curious exploration as a group, we might solve the problem more so than just thinking. So that’s the idea that not only our hands, but our bodies can have intelligence. My favorite story about that is there was a clinic that was plagued with MRSA, and they were trying to figure out solutions to it, and so they were going around and saying, “All right, well, what’s our protocol for patients?” They were kind of going through these motions together, watching, “Well, how do we respond to this? How do we respond to that?” One of the things they noticed is when the doctor was leaning over the patient, the neck tie was dragging all around the patient. It’s like, “Oh, that’s a vector of transmission.”

Julie Baeb:

Yeah. Right? Oh, man. I mean, the power of observation is huge. There is a district that provides special education services for a group of metro area districts, and we did a big project with them trying to figure out … they have a big wait list, more students want to be there than they can accommodate, and trying to figure out how to have those students be served and not be on a wait list. The one thing that I really pushed for was just observe. Let’s observe what’s happening in the classroom. Let’s observe what’s in those member district sites and not make assumptions as a design team what needs to be done. Let’s just go see what’s happening. So just like the observation of the doctor and the tie, noticing that there’s some ways actually that this intermediate district can support the classroom teachers before the student even gets referred.

There’s some tools, there’s some processes and ways that we can support them and coach them without the student having to leave that member district. So noticing that, like, “Oh, what if we shared this resource? What if we coached them on this way of handling that situation?” But you wouldn’t know that without observing and seeing and being in the room to start to realize some solutions. I really do believe a lot of powerful ideas come out of, again, connecting with the user, understanding their needs, talking to them directly or observing them. There’s actually … I coached a student innovation team back when I was in that school district role, and they were middle schoolers, and the kickoff was “Go observe.” I mean, literally there’s a schedule, there’s an interviewing schedule, and there was an observation schedule and a rotation for half a day. So we had some kids that were just going in classrooms and just sitting there, and they were like, “What are we supposed to do?” I’m like, “No, just watch.”

So there’s one group that came back and said, “You know what’s kind of interesting, Mrs. Baeb?” I’m like, “What?” “Everybody puts their stuff on the floor. They don’t put it on …” Because the desk is tiny. They’re those old school with the built-in desk and the chair. So they have their iPad, they have books, they have notebooks, they have their water bottle, they might have a pencil bag. So all this stuff is sitting on the floor. Ultimately, they were able to create something that they called the seat saddle. It literally is a cushioned thing that you put on a regular student chair with little saddle bags on the side so that you can slide the iPad and the notebooks. This was actually produced by Education Furniture Company here in Minnesota and made it into their catalog and actually got produced and made and so .. Anyway, it was an interesting partnership with them and the idea of coming up with ideas just through observation.

Douglas Ferguson:

That’s super cool. The power of the improv prototyping is that you can simulate these observation moments, because sometimes perhaps the group isn’t totally bought in to the power of observation or it’s going to be really costly or inconvenient to put ourselves in an observation situation. So let’s simulate it. Then when we learn things in the simulation, then there’s a lot of hunger. They’re like, “Oh, let me pay attention when I’m in these moments, too.”

Julie Baeb:

Right. So true.

Douglas Ferguson:

How would you say observation shows up in your facilitation style?

Julie Baeb:

I think you do have to read the crowd and know when you need to pivot, when there’s strong emotion or when something … you need to spend more time there. I was just facilitating a session last week with a group of staff that were just internally bumping up against each other, some differences, and just from a culture standpoint, things weren’t very solid. There’s some kind of gossiping and just not connected and aligned, and so you kind of do have to start up here. You can’t dig into that right off the bat. So we kind of worked our way down through the levels to get to that point. But to just kind of pause and observe when … there are moments where you see some tension or you need to stop and talk about, “Okay, let’s talk more about that”, or “Let’s address that.”

I mean, as a facilitator, I think it’s your job. You have to be courageous and name things that you see, but make people feel safe too. I mean, it’s a balancing act to be able to facilitate those hard conversations and notice when you need to pause. But we … actually, speaking of Liberating Structures, I used TRIZ in that session, and the group started out by defining their department’s purpose and then their desired culture. Then that question, you throw in, “Okay, so how could we fail miserably at achieving that desired culture and the purpose that we’ve defined for our department?” What’s nice about it is people laugh. They’re saying silly things, but then they’re saying some real things too, and taking that moment to then stop and say what on this list are we remotely maybe a little bit actually doing here? When they circled it and kind of stood back, and then that’s where the hard conversations kind of began, but what can we do about it?

So ending on what are some action steps we could take to stop doing this or start doing X, Y, Z. I just have to say Liberating Structures, and I learned about that through my certification with Voltage Control, that was such a great resource. I come back to it weekly. I literally use those … I mean, I use them in all my sessions now. I think what’s so great about my training and what I learned with Voltage Control through the certification, I mean, before I was very well versed in how to facilitate a human-centered design workshop, and there were steps, and I just kind of did it with students. I did it with staff, families, community. I knew how to do it, administrators. But once I learned about Liberating Structures and other techniques, it’s great. It’s just like … more of a recipe.

These are ingredients. This is the purpose of the session. What do I need to pull in order to achieve that outcome? Always when I work with my clients, one of my first questions is, what does success look like when we’re done in three hours, when we’re done in four hours? Then that gives me that purpose and what I’m aiming for, and I can pull in every activity, every icebreaker, every moment to converge and make a decision. It’s all grounded in that purpose and Liberating Structures, I do, I pull from that all the time.

Douglas Ferguson:

It’s a fantastic repository. I think you’re hitting on something there that I think is true for a lot of folks. If I were to really take a step back, I could tie it into something you said even earlier, which is … I think it was in the pre-show chats. I don’t think this came up yet, but a lot of people relate to this idea of being an accidental facilitator, doing the things, but not really having the vocabulary of realizing necessarily what you’re doing or that you’re showing up in those ways. Then you start to key in on it. Usually the keying in on it is related to some sort of framework methodology, or it could be industry specific.

So design thinking is a popular one. A lot of times those have recipes and, “Oh, here’s how you do it. Just go through this checklist and you’re good.” Then the next level of mastery is when you start to realize, “Okay, I can kind of improv a little bit here because now I’ve learned enough tools. I’ve started to see how things fit together in different ways, and now I can assemble things that are really custom and really bespoke for the group that’s coming together.”

Julie Baeb:

I was just a human-centered design, design thinking facilitator machine. I kept doing it over and over again. I think where I started to break away was there was some professional development that I was facilitating for our district. I was collaborating with some colleagues that … it was all about how space shapes your learning and learning experiences, the power of your environment. With my architecture background, when I heard about this opportunity, I was like, “Yes, yes. Sign me up, I’ll help.” So I started facilitating these cohorts of teachers meet four times a year, and there’s where the riff started coming in as far as facilitating the thinking and the creativity, but it wasn’t fully a script of human-centered design, do this, this, this. Then things started to kind of domino. After that administrative retreat I talked about, there were department heads who came to me and said, “Could you help me? Our department’s having this problem. Could you come for a half a day?” “Sure.”

And then I was like, “Oh, this is a little bit different. Okay, how do I … ” There was a foundation for our district that called on me and said, “Could you facilitate a session?” Again, I started just asking that question, what does success look like? I had to just say, “What do you want out of this time with your group? What do you want to achieve? What do you want to accomplish?” Then I just had to really pull back and think, okay, what would get us there? How could we do that? But still always making it fun. I mean, I think with my background in teaching and architecture, I love to bring the fun and the creativity. I mean, people just light up. They’re more engaged.

I mean, even I bring Legos to my sessions. I have a prompt to have about with educators, what is your purpose as an educator, and then build it. So then they have to build it with Legos. There’s just nuances that come when you build your purpose versus just tell your elbow partner, “This is my purpose as an educator.” Some little things come out, little stories and little snippets about the person when you take Legos and build it. It’s different.

Douglas Ferguson:

It’s that hand-brain connection again that we were talking about earlier.

Julie Baeb:

Yes, absolutely.

Douglas Ferguson:

Love that. I’m seeing this theme of play emerge again, which you spoke to briefly when you were mentioning TRIZ. People laughing, and then the truth was coming in around the edges of that laughter. Or maybe oftentimes I’ve noticed the room is getting really boisterous in a TRIZ, and I’m like, “Oh, we’re going to have some real juice at the end of this” because they’re willing to say some stuff when they’re in that mode. I don’t think there’s enough dialogue around … I mean, sure, there’s lots of stuff around play, creativity, laughter, and the power of it, but I don’t think there’s a lot of conversation around laughter and psychological safety. It seems to me, as I’m reflecting on it now and thinking about my experiences and what you’re saying is that’s really all unlocked for teams. If they’re laughing together, they tend to feel more safe and act in ways that would indicate safety.

Julie Baeb:

Absolutely. I think another Liberating Structure, but the 25-10 crowdsourcing, I’ve used that a couple times. I think there’s something about … I don’t know why … that one’s a playful one too, though. When you’re putting the ideas and you’re shuffling around the group and scoring it, but there’s less pressure than if we sat and looked at chart paper, which ideas are the best ones here, and I like this one. It’s like there’s something when you gamify it where you’re writing down the idea and it’s anonymous and people are just scoring it and passing around, I play music so people are dancing and they’re passing along the cards, that make it … it lightens the mood. It makes it less, I don’t know, heavy and serious. But then you can still analyze it and you can say, “Yeah, I like this idea. I don’t like this idea.”

I think it also gives voice to everybody in the room. It levels the playing field because there definitely is a dynamic with leaders and authority and people backing off on sharing their opinions when they think, “Well, they’re the decision makers, so they’ll just decide anyway.” So when you find ways to give a voice to everyone in the room that’s been invited to contribute, that’s a good way to do it.

Douglas Ferguson:

Absolutely. It’s certainly one of my favorites, and it’s interesting too that you talked about there’s a lot of dynamics going on there, but you made me think on the overanalyzing piece. There’s certainly this phenomenon of because of the speed and because the music’s going, everyone’s moving around, everyone’s standing too, and they know … especially after round one, they know, “Okay, I’m going to have to shuffle this pretty quick, so I just got to score this thing”, I think it forces people to really go with their gut versus really overthink it. So they might actually score something higher than they would’ve, and they might be willing to take bigger risks because they’re going with what really feels true to them.

Julie Baeb:

I think that’s so true. I think I’ve spent also, just when I think about my career, so much of it overthinking and being logical versus going with my gut. I’ve just started embracing my gut in the last, I don’t know, five, 10 years. It works pretty well. I think a lot of us don’t trust it and overthink, and I am trying to go with my gut more.

Douglas Ferguson:

There’s a lot of fun ways to bring in embodiment into activities, and I think that’s a big part of 25-10 too, is that people are getting on their feet, they’re moving around, they’re handing these cards to each other. So it can be fantastic to get people just up and moving. I mean, even something as simple as a human histogram. What ways have you experimented with embodiment or just kind of movement in the space?

Julie Baeb:

Well, it’s important to me that there’s a play back and forth, that you’re not just in your chair. I do a lot of virtual sessions too, and I do have some background in, when I was in that school district, prior to my consulting job, we actually had … as a training PD session, I was an innovation coach and supported … we had at the time a crowdsource innovation program where staff could submit ideas to make the district better, and I came alongside those … what we called idea champions to help develop proof of concept of their idea, and the innovation coaches … we had the opportunity to partner with Brave New Workshop, they’re an improv group here in Minneapolis, and I learned all sorts of great improv games. I still weave that into my work too. So even with going back to a Zoom call where you’re sitting, sitting, sitting, I’ll just do a shakedown like one, two, three, four, five, six, seven, eight, one two, three, and stuff like that, literally physically move your body because it just, I don’t know, it helps your brain.

People have been sitting all day, and then they have to get into a session with me from 5:00 to 8:00 PM virtually. That’s a lot. So I do try to look at ways to build in physical breaks. I’m mindful of breaks. People need that. You can’t just go, go, go for three hours straight. I think when I plan out my sessions, I think, okay, we’re sitting, now we’re going to turn and talk, now we’re going to get up. Now we’re going to work at chart paper. I do still use chart paper, and part of it, honestly, it’s just to get people standing. So instead of … I do love Mural and tools like that, but I do just really appreciate the need to stand up. So I think about that as I design a session. We’re down, we’re up, we’re moving, and then those welcoming connecting activities, I will literally …

I do a pick a side where it’s like coffee or tea, but I literally get them to physically cross the room. Coffee is on the side, tea is on the side, and people move through the room to go on the coffee side. So I mean, I think about that. I feel like movement is important. I think it helps your thinking and your creativity to move your body. So I try to weave that in.

Douglas Ferguson:

We had a really cool presentation at the summit this year from Solomon Masala, and he had this book called Zoom, and basically it was almost like a puzzle. The front cover of the book was the full picture, but each page of the book was a different zoom level, a different little square within the bigger image, and if you assembled them all together, or as you flip through it, it’s almost like you had a telescopic zoom and you were slowly zooming out. But the thing is, this guy is sitting on a boat, but then his shirt has boats on it. And what he had us do was we couldn’t show anyone in our little square. We had to assemble each other in the right order. So all we could talk about, “I’ve got a guy in a boat.” “Oh, me too.” “Oh, but do you see the whole boat?” “No.”

But meanwhile, you don’t know that, oh, this is the boat on the shirt, or is it the guy that’s on the boat? It’s this really awesome experience around not only bodily movement, but assumptions and communication, a little bit of leadership. When someone makes an epiphany, how are they communicating to that group and getting the group to respond? It was really fun.

Julie Baeb:

Very cool.

Douglas Ferguson:

So as we wrap up, I got one more question just about your work, and then we can kind of pivot to the future real quick and close out. So you’ve had the opportunity to work with children and adults. How would you compare and contrast facilitating children versus adults?

Julie Baeb:

That’s a good question. I think going back to that idea of your hands having brains, I think younger children can embrace that really easily. I think as kids get older, they become overthinkers, like adults, but when they’re younger, I think it’s easy for them to fully embrace that anything is possible. I can make anything. I can do anything. There’s that spirit within children, and that’s fun to see. When I was teaching this hands-on STEM enrichment program, it was always so rewarding. I don’t think kids get enough of that, of just making things and creating things. It’s always here’s the answer, two plus two equals four. Here’s how you do this thing and here’s your worksheet. I was not like that and I just enjoy the lighting up and just the, “oh my goodness, this is so exciting.” That was super rewarding for me, and I miss that actually.

I don’t get to do that anymore, and I do, I miss that of just that pure joy of making something and being the facilitator that helps them get to that solution and create that thing. But I still see that with adults. I still see that joy of, “oh, we came up with an answer”, or, “Oh my goodness …” I see that too with adults. It’s a little bit different, it takes us longer to get there, and we have bigger, weightier problems that we’re working through, but that’s why I do what I do.

As a facilitator, I come to my groups not saying, “I have the answer for you. This is what you should do.” They have the answers. It’s my job to coax it out of them. I did that with kids, and I do it with adults. I just have different tools in my toolkit to get there. But ultimately, it is coming up with these creative solutions and using the wisdom of the group and the room that’s assembled to get there. It’s just maybe a little bit different what we’re making or what we’re coming up with in the end, but similar techniques to get there, actually.

Douglas Ferguson:

I love that, and I especially love the question that seems so simple actually unearthed a critical part or a core component to why you facilitate.

Julie Baeb:

Yeah.

Douglas Ferguson:

Very cool. So as we think about the future and how the world’s evolving, how is that impacting your practice or the way you think about preparing for your practice and how things evolve? You mentioned that unlike the children, the adults have weightier issues. So what’s top of mind for you as you think about your growth and just supporting your clients and your peers and what’s necessary to do the good work right now?

Julie Baeb:

I definitely think, and I support K12 district administrators, leaders, ultimately with the goal to create the best experiences for student, staff and families. We come at that from different ways, different angles, different processes, but I definitely think as I do the work that I do … I mean, culture is so critical and I do feel in the world of education right now there’s definitely … I mean, it’s a very trying time for educators. It’s not a field that people are running to right now. I think that things are getting more complicated and I do see, as I talk with educators, the importance of building trust and a strong culture I think can carry you through and weather any storm, and really facilitation can do that. Sometimes you need an outside perspective, someone else to come in to help you get there, and I do think sometimes it gets overlooked like, “Well, we really need to just focus on getting this done or getting to completing this initiative”, but really looking at your culture and how your staff are connected with one another and using each other as resources, trusting one another.

I think that’s really important, those connections. So when I facilitate, whether it’s a strategic planning process or any work that I do, I take the opportunity to build culture and connection with that team to make them stronger. That’s something that’s really rewarding for me when I leave the process to see after nine months of working with them, that this team is much more close, more connected, trust each other more. I do think that’s needed right now and it’s something that I strive to do and all the work I do with my clients.

Douglas Ferguson:

It’s always difficult in trying times because it’s so easy. I’ve seen so many organizations, it’s almost like defaulting to like, “Well, let’s commiserate the problem”, and that becomes the culture in itself. It’s so top of mind because struggling so much, that’s where our focus goes. Then it’s so hard to ritualize happiness or joy or any of the other things that are really important to bring us together. I once heard it saying, and this comes from my background in technology startups, but a lot of times the strife at technology startups is like, “Oh, well, sales are down and we’re having trouble raising money because we’re not growing. We’re not getting new clients so the investors aren’t losing interest.”

The statement I heard was, “Sales will fix all problems at startups”, which is kind of not entirely true, but certainly I’ve definitely seen situations where the culture was miserable, everything was dire, and then all of a sudden we turn some stuff around sales wise, things get successful, and all of a sudden everyone’s focused on doing what they’re supposed to do, and everything just gets a lot better. So I guess the point is, it’s like culture is easy when things are going well, and it’s always hard when things get tough. So I commend you for stepping into those moments and assisting, and I do agree that having a facilitator to help even just knock people out of the ruts or the norms they might be in as far as a habitual problem, admiration, and being a little more optimistic and thinking about solutions over just stacking up what’s wrong.

Julie Baeb:

absolutely.

Douglas Ferguson:

So anyway, great there. I love it. I guess want to end with giving you an opportunity to leave our listeners with a final thought.

Julie Baeb:

I think all of us can be facilitators, right? I mean, we can facilitate those moments of connection and build stronger culture no matter what you do. I mean, when I was in the facilitation certification course, I met so many interesting people from all these different walks of life that have these different roles, taking these skills to these different industries and different teams of people. But I think really when we gather whatever it is for a workshop or a Zoom call to ask that question, what does success look like at the end, what do I want to accomplish with this group of people, and then to as much as you can inject that play and that fun to make it authentic, to use that time to actually do the work, not just talk about the work, but get it done and to make it fun and playful. I think that ultimately will help your team build a stronger team, be able to come up with better solutions when you’re really thoughtful about the way you gather the group.

Douglas Ferguson:

Absolutely. Well, thank you so much for joining me today and sharing about your journey and about how you’re applying facilitation, and certainly intrigued by some of the challenges that the education system is facing, and so it’s great to hear that folks like yourself are out there helping and applying facilitation skills that’s much needed.

Julie Baeb:

Well, thanks, Douglas. Thanks for having me.

Douglas Ferguson:

It’s been a blast. Thank you.

Thanks for joining me for another episode of the Facilitation Lab podcast. If you enjoyed the episode, please leave us a review and be sure to subscribe to receive updates when new episodes are released. We love listener tales and invite you to share your facilitation stories. Send them to us on LinkedIn or via email. If you want to know more, head over to our blog where I post weekly articles and resources about facilitation, team dynamics and collaboration, voltagecontrol.com.

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