A conversation with Michael Palmer; Founder & The Team School

“So first of all, make very clear what the purpose of the team is, or the organization. What is it we’re trying to accomplish? What’s our big goal? What’s our mission? Where are we going? Unless that is stated clearly, the people who are in the team won’t be able to line up together. So think of a rowing crew in a rowing boat, and they don’t know where they’re going and nobody is setting the pace. They’re going to have difficulty functioning well, and we have that kind of problem in many teams. People assume that they know what their purpose is, but spelling it out is actually very important, especially in larger organizations, but even in small teams with two or three people, it’s a very important thing.” –Michael Palmer

In this episode of Control the Room, I had the pleasure of speaking with Michael Palmer about his experience helping organizations with instruction programs to help teams of all kinds build the cultures they need to excel.  He shares a thoughtful definition of ‘culture’ and why it’s important to sustain healthy teams.  Later, Michael shares some tips to develop better communication practices at work.  We then discuss the importance of ‘purpose’ at work.   Listen in for Michael’s interesting thoughts on the criteria all high-performing teams meet.

Show Highlights

[1:30] How Michael Got His Start Developing Programs For Teams.

[9:30] The What, Why, And How Of A Great Meeting.

[14:10] Always Take Care Of Your People.

[27:15] Micheal’s Definition Of Culture.  

[35:20] Knowing Your Purpose. 

Links | Resources

Michael on Linkedin

Michael on Twitter 

About the Guest

Mike is an author, teacher, lawyer, and social entrepreneur. He has taught philosophy, ethics, political science, negotiation, and conflict resolution courses at colleges and universities in Berlin, Germany, Chicago, and Vermont. He holds a doctorate in philosophy from the Free University of Berlin and a law degree from Georgetown University. Mike founded and ran his law firm in Vermont for 20 years before launching an international consulting career that has taken him to Macedonia, Bosnia & Herzegovina, Russia, Azerbaijan, Jordon, and Mongolia. He has been a featured speaker at international conferences and is the author of several books and numerous articles on ethics, conflict resolution, negotiation, and startup ventures. Mike recently served as Executive Vice President of Waterotor Energy Technologies, which is developing a hydrokinetic system that converts much of the energy in ocean currents and rivers into electricity.

Currently, Mike is working with a few others to launch The Team School, which will develop a program of instruction to help teams of all kinds build the cultures they need to excel. They are designing a course on communication for healthcare professionals that will improve how healthcare teams work and lead to better outcomes for patients.

Mike is also an avid golfer, pianist, percussionist, and music composer.

About Voltage Control

Voltage Control is a change agency that helps enterprises sustain innovation and teams work better together with custom-designed meetings and workshops, both in-person and virtual. Our master facilitators offer trusted guidance and custom coaching to companies who want to transform ineffective meetings, reignite stalled projects, and cut through assumptions. Based in Austin, Voltage Control designs and leads public and private workshops that range from small meetings to large conference-style gatherings.

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Full Transcript

Douglas: Welcome to the Control The Room podcast, a series devoted to the exploration of the meeting culture and uncovering cures to the common meeting. Some meetings have tight control and others are loose. To control the room means achieving outcomes while striking a balance between imposing and removing structure, asserting and distributing power, leaning in and leaning out, all in the service of having a truly magical meeting. Thanks for listening. If you’d like to join us live for a session sometime, you can join our weekly controlled room facilitation lab. It’s a free event to meet fellow facilitators and explore new techniques so you can apply the things you learn in the podcast in real time with other facilitators. Sign up today at voltagecontrol.com/facilitation-lab.

If you’d like to learn more about my book, Magical Meetings, you can download the Magical Meetings quick start guide, a free PDF reference with some of the most important pieces of advice from the book. Download a copy today at magicalmeetings.com.

Today I’m with Mike Palmer at The Team School, where he is developing an online program of instruction design to help teams develop the cultures they need to excel. He’s also the author of online courses and several books, including Morally Responsible College, Professional Ethics For Managers, and Win Before Trial, What Lawyers and Their Clients Must Know To Get the Best Outcomes Possible. Welcome to the show, Mike.

Mike: Hi, Doug. Thanks for having me.

Douglas: Of course. It’s great to have you here and as usual, I’d love to start off with just learning a little bit about how you got interested in developing cultures and helping teams excel. How did you get into this work of building the team school?

Mike: Well, thank you for the question, Doug. I’ve been involved in academic work for a long time. I taught in the free university of Berlin, University of Maryland in Berlin, then became a lawyer and have been involved in teams of all kind, both in academic world as a lawyer and in other business settings. One of the things that I realized over the years that I’ve been doing this is many teams are not as effective as they could be. They just don’t seem to be working to their full potential and that’s not something that’s … that insight’s not limited to me. There’s quite a bit of an extensive literature on the subject that says, first of all, that teams generally don’t work as well as they could and also that there are some things we could do about that. One of the things that I discovered in getting into this work is that it would help to focus on what the team culture is and the aspects of team culture that either contribute to excellent work or that detract from it.

Doug: So in your journey through this, what have you found to be the causes of this kind of lack of potential or this waning efficacy?

Mike: Yeah. So my understanding of this, the conclusions that I’ve reached are the first thing that I think every team should do to become more effective would be to become goal aware and purpose aware and purpose aligned. So first of all, make very clear what the purpose of the team is, or the organization. What is it we’re trying to accomplish? What’s our big goal? What’s our mission? Where are we going? Unless that is stated clearly, the people who are in the team won’t be able to line up together. So think of a rowing crew in a rowing boat, and they don’t know where they’re going and nobody is setting the pace. They’re going to have difficulty functioning well, and we have that kind of problem in many teams. People assume that they know what their purpose is, but spelling it out is actually very important, especially in larger organizations, but even in small teams with two or three people, it’s a very important thing.

The second thing is having good communication practices. So if you don’t know how to listen empathetically, or to listen to figure out what the person is really trying to say and why they’re trying to say it, you often will be talking across each other without truly understanding what you’re trying to get across and you won’t build the relationship that you need to have really solid, ongoing lasting communication. So those are the two major things. There are other things that go into the mix that we can get into, but if somebody said, “Tell me one thing that will make my team better,” I would say, “Make sure you have a written, thoroughly discussed and agreed upon statement of your purpose.”

Doug: So I wanted to talk a little bit more about organizations that struggle with this and what they might do to help them state that purpose more clearly.

Mike: Well, there are a couple of things. One is most teams and most organizations have some sort of nominal leader or a defacto leader or people who take some kind of leadership initiative or a leadership role. You need leaders in teams to be able to help the rest of the people in the team get together and work on something in a coordinated, concerted fashion. So that doesn’t mean a dictator. It doesn’t mean somebody who has all the answers. It doesn’t mean somebody who orders other people around. It means somebody who facilitates the coordination process and the cooperation process within the team by convening things, by proposing an agenda, by articulating or setting out what that person believes is the purpose of the meeting if you’re having a meeting, for example, and setting an agenda for the meeting. “Here’s what we want to try to do in this meeting.”

Other people can have their own opinions about that and the best teams have a kind of process where anybody can contribute to the statement of purpose as well as the agenda. But you need all people who comment on this or write about it are in agreement that a good leader is an essential component of a properly functioning team.

Doug: You mentioned that purpose is so critical, maybe the number one thing. In the pre-show chat, we were talking about meetings and how essential they are and as many of our listeners know, that’s something I’m very passionate about. We have a meeting mantra that states no purpose, no meeting. So it seems like a natural segue to maybe talk about some of your favorite meeting techniques or how you even approach that with people you’re working with.

Mike: Well, I come across that phrase also in the form of no agenda, no attenda, and you are well versed in meetings and challenges of having good meetings. It’s one of the things that you work on and so you will know that one of the big frustrations for people who go to meetings that seem to meander, go nowhere, they seem pointless, they don’t know why they’re there, they’re frustrated, they leave, they’re angry, they’re upset, it’s in large part because people don’t make clear to themselves and others why we’re having this meeting. It seems to be, “Well, it’s a good idea just to get together.” Well, in the business world, in an organization anyway, and not just business, but any kind of organization work, that’s not a proper way to … if you will, it’s disrespectful of people’s time and their energy and so forth. Because anytime you take an hour out of a week or a day for a meeting, it needs to move the organization forward.

If it doesn’t, it’s really an imposition on everybody for that to happen. So as I said, that’s where this goal awareness or goal orientation is a key aspect of the culture of properly functioning teams. So the way I like to think about it is this particular aspect of team work is what are we doing? Why are we doing it and how are we going to get it done? So that’s the what, why and how model that certainly is not original with me, but as I’ve been looking at this, it seems to me to be something that it would be good to keep reminding ourselves of with respect to just get into habit of thinking, “What is it that we’re trying to do here? Why are we trying to do it? What’s the larger purpose within which this particular set of goals is enmeshed, and how are we going to go about doing it?” Those three things will keep you on track in a meeting, in a project, in the work of a business, and will really go a long way to helping your team be functional and effective.

Doug: I’ve definitely heard that no agenda, no attenda, and my beef with that is so often people equate agendas with just list of topics and a list of topics is not a purpose. I’d love to hear your thoughts on that.

Mike: Well, I could not agree more. I think you want to know why the topic is on the agenda. We’re meeting to talk about the upcoming conference that we’re going to schedule and one of the things on the agenda is the logistics for getting everybody together at the conference. Well, it may be obvious why that’s on the agenda, but you need to think through just exactly how you’re going to work with that. So what do you want to accomplish when you get to that topic? You want to have some goal in mind, something that ends in action. So at the end of discussing what we’re going to do about the logistics of the conference, somebody needs to have responsibility for carrying that ball forward after the meeting is over.

So one of the things that has to happen in a well organized meeting is a summary at the end that repeats, “Okay, Sally, you have agreed to do X, and that’s what you’re going to be doing, and Jim is going to do Y and so forth.” So that’s how I see that coming together. One of the difficult things on this in my experience is we don’t understand that there’s a mechanical aspect to meetings and so we assume that we all know what we’re trying to do, and we will all get it done together. It just doesn’t work that way. The assumption has to be spelled out for communication to take place and for things to get done properly.

Doug: How often can those assumptions bite us if we don’t spell them out? Because I think the example I love to share is just around decision making because often people get hung up on, “Oh, why did they ask for my advice if they were going to take it?” If that meeting had started with the proclamation that, “Hey, we’re going to talk about this, but I’m going to make the decision,” then people would’ve had a completely different reaction to the outcome. Going in, they would know the protocol.

Mike: Yes. Well, that gets into a subject about a topic where we are starting to try to figure out, and this is … we’ve been going through a trans transformation or a change in our business culture in the United States and other parts of the world over the last 30, 40 years, from a more command and control approach to organization to a more collaborative approach. What you just mentioned is when somebody says, “We’ll talk about this. I’d like to hear what you have to say, but I’m going to make the decision,” that really cuts out a lot of thinking. It squelches a lot of participation because people then don’t own the decision. They don’t feel like they own the decision and they feel treated more like cogs in a machine, objects, and not ends or participants in the process. So one of the things in terms of developing The Team School that I’ve identified is there are three main things that you need to take care of or to attend to to develop a really great functioning team.

Number one is the people who are in the team, you need to take care of the people, meaning their needs, their interests, their desires need to be respected. They need to be respected as human beings and that starts with just basic kindergarten level good manners. Saying please, thank you and I’m sorry when appropriate, treating people with dignity and respect. So that’s number one. Number two is the team has to get along. There has to be a good level of cooperation and that means the relationships among the team members need to be positive and strong. If you get a lot of back biting and political jockeying and behind the scenes deal making and so forth, that is toxic to a team so that you have to have good practices with respect to the cooperation, and the third thing is you have to do good work or you have to get the work done.

That’s what we were talking about just a moment ago with the what, why and how process. That’s goal orientation. So if you say we’re going to build a widget, then you need to think through that process as much as you can without getting into a waterfall kind of project management mode, where you spell out everything in advance, but you need to have a roadmap, an overall vision of what you want to accomplish, how you’re going to go about doing it, why that is important. So those three things are what I believe would help every team, regardless of whether it’s a medical team, an emergency department team in a hospital, a team in a manufacturing organization, a sports team in the educational sector, a nonprofit, for-profit, any kind of organized group of people who have a purpose, and that’s what defines a team.

A team is a group of people who have a purpose to accomplish things. One of the problems that we have that I’ve been talking about and you and I have been discussing is that purpose needs to be spelled out. A lot of people assume that just because we all kind of know why we got together, that we will have the same understanding, and that’s just not the case unfortunately.

Doug: The other thing I always come back to in purpose is that it can be such a powerful way of getting past the disconnect around assumptions or expectations going into the meeting. So if we use our purpose to further clarify why we’re gathering and do so inside of our calendar invite via the name or the description so it gives people the opportunity to opt out if they realize, “Oh, that’s what’s happening? I don’t really need to be there.”

Mike: Well, that’s one of the things that can happen is, “Yeah, I’m not needed for that meeting and so I don’t need to show up.” That varies from team to team as to how appropriate that is in given settings and so forth. I’ve found a couple of things that are really helpful in this regard. So I started looking about a month ago for technology software that would facilitate having good team meetings and there are several companies that now have meeting preparation software, that have agenda setting software. A couple of them are fairly good. Some are not so good. Some are basically … they’re little better than your own word processing program or a sheet of paper. The better ones, what they force you to do if you use them is to think through why we’re having this meeting.

My experience is that meetings get called and I’ve been guilty of this myself, calling a meeting saying, “We need to get together and meet about something,” but we have a general or somewhat vague notion of why we’re getting together. The general topic is clear more or less, but we don’t prepare and therefore we don’t get as much done as we could. Certainly the person convening and facilitating the meeting needs to prepare. I’ve found in working on this that spending at least 30 minutes to prepare for a one hour meeting and then another 20 to 30 minutes working on the notes and summarizing the meeting afterwards is about what it takes to get a good meeting done and to make use of that meeting in a way that really drives the work of the organization forward.

So we’ve been talking about the meeting because meetings are one of the places, they’re basically are the place, where people get together to decide what it is that the team is going to do and who’s going to do it. Of course, people get together to actually do some of the work. So they’re working on maybe writing code for software program or working on physically building a piece of equipment or something of that nature. That happens too. But the place where we are almost guaranteed to be in communication with each other is in team meetings and that’s why it’s crucial to get this work done well.

Doug: It reminds me of our meeting mantra, do the work in the meeting, because if we synthesize together and capture together and make commitments together and build something together, it does minimize the time we had to spend afterwards sense making and reporting and gathering. But that preparation, it’s really unavoidable, because if everyone comes in unprepared or just not … I call it not booted up, we haven’t pooled all this stuff in our working memory.

Mike: To me, it’s one of those things that is … I’m thinking of Thomas Watson’s mantra that he put on signs in IBM. When he was chairman and president of IBM in the early 20th century, he had signs in everybody’s office. One word said think. Now, that is a really nice thing to remind us all of, but our whole organism, our brains, are designed to minimize thinking as much as possible, which is why we make very quick intuitive, some say gut decisions where we jump to conclusions sometimes and sometimes the outcomes aren’t very great. One of the reasons is thinking is not only hard work, it’s expensive. It requires a lot of energy and time and we cannot afford, especially if we’re in the eat or be eaten stage of humanities development, in the hunter gatherer stage era. We just don’t have the time to take a lot of time thinking through and making decisions so we weren’t developed to do that because it takes a lot of work.

So we have to overcome the inertia that we don’t want to think and put in the work to make this happen. The default mode is to simply make it up as we go along and that leads to poor meetings it leads to poor teamwork and unfortunately, that’s what we have to do if we want to have great teams. Now, one of the things that’s really exciting about the era that we live in is computer technology and software in general, and particularly artificial intelligence are going to make this process much, much easier than it has been before. It will take a lot of the burden of this thinking that I just referred to away from us so we’ll be able to do other things. But either the machine’s going to have to do it with and for us, or we’re going to have to do it in order to get good results.

Doug: Yeah, it’s interesting. There’s certainly AI facilitation tools that I’ve seen people experimenting with. I think we’re still in the infancy there, but I’m really fascinated by human in the loop technology. How can we be augmented by tools that maybe suggest or help us even analyze sentiment or understand things that may not be as apparent to us in the moment?

Mike: Yeah. So this is a subject that I’ve been interested in for a long time. My doctoral dissertation was on the philosophy of technology, which I did in Germany. I discovered when I came to Germany, I was already working on this topic before I got there for graduate school, and I discovered that there was a long history and a large body of literature on the subject of technology and what it means and how we get along with it and don’t get along with it and so forth. That literature fell into kind of two camps. One was the people who I called technophobes, people who thought technology was the damnation of humanity, and the technophiles were people who thought, “Well, it’s the salvation of humanity.” As those two camps illustrate, it can be both helpful and harmful in many ways.

But the history of humanity is one of developing increasingly valuable and complex technologies. So the first, I don’t know whether it’s historically the first, but it’s certainly in some ways one of the first technologies is human language. It allows us to grasp things with the mind the same way we grasp them with the hand, and we can manipulate them mentally as if we were manipulating them by hand and create concepts, and then build on that and build on everything we’re doing. So we’ve gone through a rich history of technological development that once we got to the computer era has really taken off in ways that are quite dramatic. Even when I was working on this study for my dissertation was not even … well, we imagined it, but it certainly was not a reality at the time. Because computers had been invented, but they were these large things that took up whole floors of a building. Nothing like what we have today.

At any rate, Marshall McCluen, who was one of the inspirations for the work that I did, said that technologies, all of these things that we have developed in human culture, are the extensions of man. So they are augmentations, I think you said, of what we do and make it possible to do things that we otherwise could not do. So I’m fascinated with that. I’m really eager to see how we can make use of artificial intelligence in particular, but other basic computer programs to facilitate the work of teams in organizations and to get better results over time.

Doug: I want to come back to something you said pretty early on, and that was the importance of culture. I know you told me in the pre-show chat that you are really interested in how to define culture, help people understand what it means and even how to manage it. So I’d love to hear where your thoughts are at this point and how that’s emerging for you.

Mike: Sure. This is one of those things that I don’t know whether you’re remember the remark by Justice Potter Stewart. Several decades ago, the Supreme Court had a series of cases where they had to decide what was permissible and what not permissible in terms of decent speech, pornography. At the time there were state laws in many states that made it illegal to publish anything that was considered offensive or indecent or pornographic. Somebody asked Justice Stewart, “What is pornography?” and he says, “Well, I can’t define it, but I know it when I see it.” A lot of people seem to have the same view of culture. They know there’s something there that is kind of the way we do things here at the X, Y, Z company, and that makes us different from the ABC company. We have our own style, our own way of doing things, our own way of talking, maybe other parts, so we kind of put that all under the umbrella of culture.

I went looking for, “Well, what is culture?” and alas, the anthropologist who developed the term in the first place have not done a great job defining it, and others who’ve taken a stab at it have gotten some headway, but I thought it needed more. So what I did was I started with basic needs. What are the needs that we have as human beings? The psychologists, the social psychologists have provided answers to this. So we have physiological needs, the need for food and nutrition and wellbeing and safety and shelter. So these are fundamental needs that need to be satisfied. When you get those satisfied, you have other needs such as self-esteem, a need to belong to some social group, some social entity that need to be respected, and as you go up the pyramid or the hierarchy of needs, you come to self-actualization, a need to be fulfilled and so forth.

So human needs are the basic starting point for understanding culture, because culture develops in response to human needs. One aspect of that is our knowledge system and our belief systems. It’s how we understand reality around us. In order to function in the world, in order to satisfy our needs for food and shelter and safety, we need to understand how the world works. What’s the difference between a snake and a dead branch, and what’s the difference … a rustling in the Bush that might be an animal of prey, a lion or something like that. We need to have ways of communicating with each other and so forth. So as we evolve as a species, we develop means of satisfying needs, and we develop a knowledge system, which is related to satisfying needs.

One aspect of that process, which is important for teams and organizations are the values, the enduring goals and means that are of signal importance to us in response to the needs. So a value that would be developed in response to the need for safety is health and safety, and that becomes a value that becomes important to us. Then values then translate into norms or rules that help us figure out what we’re supposed to do in certain context and settings. The way I talk about norms is norms and rules are forms of encapsulated judgments. In other words, we’ve made a judgment at some point in time that it’s a good thing to have stop signs at intersections, and that we should have stop signs and that people should actually come to a stop when they come to an intersection with a stop sign, because doing so reduces injuries and deaths and collisions and damage to vehicles and so forth.

So that rule, stop at a stop sign, is the result of the response to a need, a very specific need, and is also a form of putting a value, namely safety, into practice. So that’s how I’ve been getting a hold of culture in a way that you can manage it in a team or organization. So you take a hospital or a healthcare setting, the values that are going to be paramount for a healthcare team are human wellbeing, human dignity and autonomy, health, safety. So those are going to be top of the order and you build a culture if you’re going to be intentional about it and manage a culture, you spell out those values and say, “These are the values and this is the one that’s most important.” When it comes to making a quick decision, the autonomy of the patient will be more important than perhaps what we consider to his health outcome.

Because we have decided that patients have the right to decide for themselves what it is they want to happen with their bodies. So we have to respect that and not just override it and say we know better what should happen for the patient. That’s all the development of a hospital culture and it gets very complex. But if you are able to understand the basic needs, the belief system that goes in response to those needs and the values that are developed in response to those needs, then you can start to get a hold of, mentally grab a hold of the culture of the organization, and you can change it, you can improve it, you can have a conversation around what it is we want and so forth.

Doug: So simply put, culture is important. When we think about the future of what can unfold and it can be quite tremendous, and you’re doing a lot of work with healthcare and I’m really curious to hear your thoughts. When we really peer out into the future, specifically with transforming healthcare organizations, what do you think’s possible when teams start to become more effective when they tap into their potential, when they’re really reinventing their cultures?

Mike: Yeah, that’s a great question. We’ve had such tremendous gains over the last 40 or 50 years that it’s hard to realize how far we’ve come. In the 19th century, we still did not have … the middle of the 19th century, the germ theory of disease was just emerging. So physicians didn’t have anything close to what we now have as an understanding of how disease works and how medicine should be in response to it. The same thing was you go back a hundred years, we were still very much at the beginning of this. Even at the middle of the 20th century, we were coming along, medicines were developing, we had some good ones and so forth, but just think of the response to COVID. Medical professionals and scientists consider it close to miraculous that a vaccine could be developed, tested, shown to be effective and safe in about a year.

That’s was previously unheard of. One of the reasons why it happened, my understanding, I’m not a medical doctor, so this is all just by reading and listening to those who are professionals, but one of the reasons it happened was the discovery of mRNA technology. I forget the scientist’s name who discovered it. She deserves a Nobel prize, in my opinion. She persisted over decades, conducting this research when other people said that’s of no interest and of no value. It turned out to be the most valuable thing in the process of developing the vaccines. Those are the kinds of things that we have where we are now and I see that the medical technology is going to just continue to explode with new discoveries, especially if you make use of computational power of really high powered computers, artificial intelligence, and so forth, and also in the diagnostic aspect and the treatment aspect.

So doctors now have to carry a lot of knowledge in their heads when they’re doing a diagnosis. There are literally thousands of medical articles coming out in medical journals every year. They can’t possibly read all of them. So there will be things that an individual doctor simply doesn’t know because it’s humanly impossible to know, but computer technology can know it and can make it available in a way that will become very useful in the diagnostic, as well as the treatment aspects of medical work. But one of the things that I think is key to making healthcare more effective and valuable for all of us is better communication practices in healthcare settings by healthcare professionals and also by patients. So there’s a lot to be done here in terms of helping both patients and medical professionals communicate more effectively with each other.

Doug: Amazing. Thanks so much for sharing today. We could probably talk for hours on this, because I know we’re both passionate about it and we had to come to a close here. I want to just give you a moment to leave our listeners with a final thought before we go.

Mike: Thank you so much for having me, Doug. This has been a real treat. I’ve been delighted to be here. I think this is a great podcast that you’re doing and eager to listen to more of your podcast. So a final thought, if I had to sum it up in one phrase, I’d say know your purpose. Know what the goal is, know why you’re doing what you’re doing. All human action is in response to human needs and when we act, we will be more effective if we know what it is we’re trying to do and why we’re trying to do it. So know your purpose.

Doug: Amazing. Thanks so much, Mike, it’s been a pleasure having you and we’ll make sure to get all the details and the show notes so folks can know how to get ahold of you and learn more about The Team School and your sites for the books and et cetera. So check out the show notes for all that. It’s been a real pleasure having you, Mike.

Mike: Well, thank you so much for having me. It’s been a treat and anybody who wants to chat with me about the topics that we’ve been talking about, I’d be happy to correspond with you. Get in touch, have a conversation, give me a call. So we’ll put that information in the notes and I’d be delighted if you’d get in touch.

Doug: Awesome. Thanks again, Mike.

Mike: Okay.

Doug: Thanks for joining me for another episode of Control The Room. Don’t forget to subscribe to receive updates when new episodes are released. If you want to know more, head over to our blog where I post weekly articles and resources about radical inclusion, team health and working better. Voltagecontrol.com.