A conversation with Nathan Hughes, COO & Co-Founder @ Detroit Labs

“I think that is one of the best gifts that you can give other people is yes, we’re all just chemical biological beings at the beginning of these, and we have all the choices in the world to go somewhere else.”- Nathan Hughes

In this episode of the Facilitation Lab podcast, host Douglas Ferguson converses with Nathan Hughes, COO and co-founder of Detroit Labs. Nathan shares his journey from a technology-focused career to embracing facilitation and leadership. He discusses the pivotal role of facilitation in managing teams, especially during crises like the pandemic. Nathan highlights the importance of practice in low-stakes environments to build facilitation skills and emphasizes the need for trust and connection within teams. He also offers advice for technology leaders transitioning into management, stressing the value of redefining success and maintaining personal creative outlets.

Show Highlights

[00:01:30] Nathan’s Journey into Facilitation
[00:04:48] Communication and Change Management
[00:07:30] Integration of Facilitation into Work
[00:25:29] Acknowledging Group Tension
[00:28:02] Facilitator’s Role in Connection
[00:38:38] Involving Teams in Change
[00:41:12] Adaptive Leadership and Facilitation

Nate on Linkedin

About the Guest

Nathan is the co-founder of Detroit Labs, a leading software development and consulting company known for creating innovative digital products across a wide range of industries. With over 25 years of experience in the technology sector, Nathan is a certified coach and trainer who oversees culture, strategy, and operations within the organization.

About Voltage Control

Voltage Control is a facilitation academy that develops leaders through certifications, workshops, and organizational coaching focused on facilitation mastery, innovation, and play. Today’s leaders are confronted with unprecedented uncertainty and complex change. Navigating this uncertainty requires a systemic facilitative approach to gain clarity and chart pathways forward. We prepare today’s leaders for now and what’s next.

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Transcript

Douglas Ferguson:

Hi, I’m Douglas Ferguson. Welcome to the Facilitation Lab podcast where I speak with Voltage Control certification alumni and other facilitation experts about the remarkable impact they’re making. We embrace a method agnostic approach so you can enjoy a wide range of topics and perspectives as we examine all the nuances of enabling meaningful group experiences. This series is dedicated to helping you navigate the realities of facilitating collaboration, ensuring every session you lead becomes truly transformative. Thanks so much for listening. If you’d like to join us for a live session sometime, you can join our facilitation lab community. It’s an ideal space to apply what you learn in the podcast in real time with peers. Sign up today at voltagecontrol.com/facilitation-lab. If you’d like to learn more about our 12-week facilitation certification program, you can read about it at voltagecontrol.com. Today I’m with Nathan Hughes at Detroit Labs where he is the chief operating officer and founded the business with three other founders 13 years ago. Welcome to the show, Nate.

Nathan Hughes:

Thank you. I’m glad to be here.

Douglas Ferguson:

So great to have you. It’s always fun to talk with alumni and folks doing great work out in the world. And I guess for starters, let’s hear a little bit about your journey and how you started to begin, what often people call this unexpected journey into facilitation.

Nathan Hughes:

Absolutely. Absolutely. I’m a double alumni because I started and then paused and had to go do some other stuff and then came back and finished. So I like to think that I’ve … Man, I’ve gotten a lot of face time with the facilitation.

Douglas Ferguson:

Get the benefit of multiple cohorts, building the network even bigger.

Nathan Hughes:

Multiple cohorts. Lots of friends. Absolutely. Yeah. Thanks. So right now I’m chief operating Officer, like you said, I’m in the technology side. Information technology. I started my career in the ’90s at the University of Michigan, library science, helping install database systems and things like that. I got into development. I did a lot of contracting, so did a lot of individual selling myself to win a deal and then go and hopefully do that deal well enough that they would want to hire me again and move through a couple different contract companies that collected all of us up and offered services and things like that. Traditional, maybe 10, 15 years after doing that, build up some skills, got into a little bit more leadership, a little bit more management, started managing some small software teams and then some larger software teams, and then got involved in managing software network teams and system administrators and things like that.

About 13, 14 years ago, I got an opportunity to help co-found this company, Detroit Labs, which is a services company. My whole life has been services. I’ve just always been in … I think of it as technology hospitality so I’ve always been in that side of the business. And this was a business that the first week we were talking about, we’re going to go very heavy and focus on some of the startups that were starting in Detroit. I’m in the Detroit area. Detroit Labs, the name of the company. And how all of that changed so rapidly.

And I was going to go in and I was going to be in charge of the web development side. That was some of my background. And then we had mobile development with another founder, and within about a month decided what web development in 2000 … When was this? 2011, 12, 13 years ago. Web development was very commoditized. This might not make sense for a business so changed it and focused on mobile. And we’re going to focus and do only with the startups that are in the startup community here. They’re startups, they don’t have money, and we’re trying to build a business. We want clients that can pay. We started immediately to change that and just flux and change in all these plans that we had immediately going off in different directions. And how do you keep on top of that and how do you create some consistency, some stability when you’re in the middle of that startup whirlwind?

And we’ve been doing it last 13 years. We’ve pivoted and changed the business a couple of times. When we went through the pandemic, we obviously changed like everyone else. Another pretty radical situation where we could send everyone home and work from home easily as a technology company but the kinds of services and products and things like that that we offered had to change radically because all of a sudden people wanted to buy something else. And so as you would expect, it’s been nonstop find something that works, do that for a little bit. All of a sudden it seems like it’s not working as well. Let’s change. Oh my gosh, we got to change everything again. We got to talk in a different way. We have to communicate this to a whole team a different way and move into something else and repeating that. And I think we feel like we do that pretty good. I don’t know if any organization does change management and that kind of thing. Well, but I think we do it and I’m pretty pleased with, okay. And a lot of it is because we spend a lot of time focusing on communication and message and mentoring and coaching and partnership within the company as well as partnership with our clients and all those good things.

And so there was a point when I was doing a lot of … In labs, I started out as a developer and then I got really heavy into people ops, and then I got heavy into operations. And during my people ops side, I started doing a lot more training. I actually offered up packaged training as well as putting together workshops that were specific to the kinds of things that we were doing at labs. This is what leadership means at this company and the way we structure teams or this is how we collaborate and do these kinds of projects and how do we talk to that or give presentations, workshops, etc. And I was doing that and finding out that I liked it. And then I realized I really like this a lot. This more structured piece. I was going to some training and things like that, but I was more flying by the seat of my pants just, oh, this feels like the right thing to say, or I read this book or these things in a different context. I’m going to pull that. Maybe that’ll help with the training. And what I finally realized, oh, with the facilitation, that’s what this is.

And so there was a moment when I realized I’m doing a lot of facilitation. It would be really neat to actually look into that as a real thing and understand what the heck I was doing because I bet people have already figured out a lot of stuff and really smart about this. And I think that’s when I crossed paths with voltage control. We actually partnered with you for a small project. But then I think more importantly to me, I saw … You might have just started … Maybe. I don’t think I was in the first cohort, but you just started the facilitation certification program And that’s where I landed.

I decided, you know what? I want to actually learn some of this stuff and see what I’m actually doing and maybe do it in a better way, a more professional way, more learned way. And that’s how I got involved in that kind of business. I’ve never put facilitation on a resume. I’ve never really thought of it as a skill set until that moment. And then after that I thought, oh wow, this is really a rich and comprehensive book of work and set of skills that if you know it exists and you can start focusing it, you can actually get better and practice and things like that. It’s been in my head as this is what I’m doing. Okay, let me look at that and let me see if I can get better when I’m doing my normal job, which is never, Hey, Nathan, can you come facilitate it’s, Hey Nathan, can you jump in and do this work? And in my head I translated to, oh, here’s some facilitation I’m going to do and I’m going to use these skills because I want to get this kind of result.

Douglas Ferguson:

Yeah. That’s so common. We hear that all the time with folks saying that their title’s not facilitation or facilitator, but there’s so many opportunities to bring the skills to bear, whether it’s planning out a full agenda or I’m just bringing in some little nuance to how I show up or how I encourage others to show up.

Nathan Hughes:

Absolutely. Like I said, I do a lot of change management kind of things. Throughout the pandemic I was chief pandemic officer, so the weekly meetings, here’s what’s going, here’s what we’re doing, here’s what’s happening, here’s how the company that you’re part of plays a role in this situation. But everyone’s lives were so much … It was so much different and so much more expanded. Everyone was thinking about something else. And so here’s how much we need you to think about labs while you’re working and dealing with all these other things. And so there was a lot of that kind of work. And then client services is always a … I don’t want to say it’s a battle, but it’s a struggle between, hey, here’s what we’re going to build for you client and the client saying, Hey, here’s what I thought you were going to build and they never match.

And then how do you bring them together and how do you show that okay, what we’re building is what you want and how does the client show us, okay, what you’re building needs to change in this way. That’s always happening. And then there’s just normal people stuff. Talking about roles and titles and how do people bring their identity to work and how do you get that information. So there’s always these fundamental aspects of the work that I’ve always been involved in as a very high-tech person for most of my career. There’s always been this need to be better at that. In a room how do I try and have a conversation that includes all six of the people in the room, not just the loudest or the most comfortable two? Or in a communication that I’m putting together how do I leave it open so it’s collaborative, not an ultimatum or not cut and dry or open myself up to risks in the future? There’s all of these bits that have always existed and I feel like I have a better chance of getting some of them right now that I’ve studied some of this stuff and practiced some of this stuff in a formal way.

Douglas Ferguson:

You mentioned practice a couple of times now. What does practice look like for you? How does that show up for you and your team I guess?

Nathan Hughes:

So I’ve always had this notion that, or this feeling that when you’re at whatever you’re trying to do, but when we’re talking about work. So when you at work, there are things that are important, but they’re hard to practice because they only show up maybe when the stakes are the highest. Or if you’re a emergency crisis management kind of person, you need a crisis and emergency in order to practice some of these things. And so practice to me is okay, I’m looking at that and identifying this is a thing that happens at the best time or the worst time or whatever your context around that is, or at the highest stakes, how do I fake it and create opportunities to practice that aren’t make or break. I don’t want to do it for the first time when it’s the most important time.

And so throughout my professional career, I’ve identified places where, oh, you know what? I’m afraid to do X, Y, Z. I want to practice that. How do I figure out? I used to be really, really nervous, afraid of public speaking or I don’t know, talking in a podcast conversationally where the questions aren’t fully written out and I didn’t have my answers. How do I practice that? I don’t want to practice it only when I have to get up on stage and give an important message to … And so I did improv. I identified the fact that, okay, improv is a way to practice this, and if you fail at it, who cares? No one. If you’ve ever been to your friend’s improv show, they fail all the time and who cares? It’s just how it is. That’s literally the goal of it is to get up on stage and be able to do something so terrible and realize, oh, that’s fine. I’m still alive, I’m still going. And then sometimes it works really good and that feels good and so I practice that.

Facilitation. Same thing. The certification program introduced a bunch of workshops and games and structures and these formal role plays that were practiced for facilitation for me. I’ve never introduced one of those specifically in 100% like, “Hey, we’re going to do this exercise.” But through that practice, I have 100% absolutely done the exact same work with a couple group of folks and said, “Okay. You know what, I want you two to go out and write this on this sheet, and you two go and write it on a different sheet and we’re going to come together in five minutes.” A very familiar workshop exercise that I’ve practiced in a low stakes way. And in this point this was a negotiation of I feel like I should be promoted and I’m not being promoted. Like high stakes. People’s entire identity and their salary and comp and feeling of value is able to play with those things that I practice in a way that I don’t feel like I’m completely making it up on the fly.

I do a lot of one-on-ones or I do a lot of intervention stuff or that. So I went through a full certification program for coaching. And in my head I’m not necessarily opening … I’m putting my shingle up to be an executive coach or a performance coach or business coach. What I want to do is practice that in a safe way so that when I’m actually doing it for real with real people and real people stakes, I’ve gone through and gotten some practice. I actually have a fairly full full-formed idea of practice when I say that in a very intentional thing. I play a lot of games that are role-play and improvisational. Same reason. To practice being up and getting a really hard question from a teammate. Hey, you said this two weeks ago, but this other thing happened. Why? And being able in that moment to feel the flush and the heart rate and realize, oh geez, I feel like, oh, I’m going to give a defense. And then okay, no immediately switching gears and being able to give a legitimate, a valid response to that. And I feel like I get that right about half of the time because I practice a lot of it and I think half of the time’s pretty good. As a human being in a stressful human being world, I’m pretty okay with half of the time.

Douglas Ferguson:

How have you found your team to respond to the idea of role-playing and that kind of practice? Is that something that they’re receptive to?

Nathan Hughes:

Here’s a funny thing. In business, in professional life, you don’t say, “Hey, you want to role-play something.” You start talking about vision and vision is role-play. Hey, here’s what we would love the world to look like a year from now, 10 years from now, next week, whatever. It’s pretend. It’s pretend with facts and basis but you’re just making it up. That’s role-play. What would you do in that world? And put yourself … And so role-play is just one-to-one, it’s vision and it’s future strategy conversations. We want to change, we want to be something different tomorrow than we are today. As soon as you start describing what that is, and then start even more importantly, describing or putting yourself in the place … Okay, what are you doing in that new world and what is your role and how are you interacting with someone who’s also in this new world? That’s role-play.I wouldn’t say role-play. I wouldn’t use those words. I don’t want people to associate it with other things that they’re grabbing onto because that word’s going to mean something. But that’s all that is. It’s the same skill.

I’m convinced that your body doesn’t know the difference. When it starts flooding, like stress hormones or excitement or nervous energy, whatever that is, those stress hormones are the same, whether you’re doing role-play because you’re on stage at an improv show or you are talking to 40 people in your company, or you’re giving the most important sales presentation to this client. Your body floods you with the same hormones, the same chemicals. You can learn how to deal with that differently and it feels the exact same way so the practice really works. So vision is role-play. Fantasy football is role-play in some ways.

All these things, they’re very similar kinds of dynamics at the fundamental core. I think you can put them into different contexts based on what you’re doing with them. Oh, I’m at work, so I’m going to do that. I’m at home, I’m talking to my 17-year-old daughter who just graduated high school and is trying to … We’re role-playing. But I’m not saying role-play saying, oh, I see you’re looking at these three or four different programs at this college. What are you thinking about? What do you see yourself doing? Oh, if you had that job, what’s the day look like? You know what that is? It’s role-play. That can be role-play fundamental as a tabletop RPG, but it’s a different context. It’s okay, pretend you’re in the future, different world, everything looks different. What do you want that to look like? And now how do you start putting the plan in place or what steps do you need to get there?

Douglas Ferguson:

Yeah. It’s interesting that you talk about the chemicals. I think that’s such an important part of practice. And as we think about the scenarios we might put ourselves into to simulate future scenarios, how do we encourage the physical elements? How do we make sure that it simulates it well enough that our body’s actually starting to create that cocktail so that we’re learning to be comfortable with it, learning to notice it, learning to make peace with it maybe?

Nathan Hughes:

So I personally think it starts with one thing you just said is learning to notice it. At certain levels we are all responding very similarly to different signals in the environment. Same chemicals or same general chemicals. Some people have … Well one, some people know that that happens. That’s a basic level. Oh, I am not thinking this. It’s just a body response. So when that happens in my thinking brain, I don’t get to say, oh, I want this or I don’t want this, or I’m proud of this reaction, or I’m not proud of this. We haven’t even gotten there yet. It’s just chemicals. And knowing that is a good first step. And then the second step is to notice those chemicals. Like this recording about five minutes in, maybe even earlier, I felt some of the chemicals that I feel when I start getting … It’s nervous or it’s fear, but then it just gives me energy. Because I’ve learned to notice it and say, “Oh, that’s happening. Here’s what’s going to happen. I’m going to talk maybe too fast if I don’t notice that. I’m going to run out of breath because I talk even way too fast if I don’t notice it. But also if I notice it, I can use that energy and that can be excitement just as much as it can be fear.”

So the second part, after knowing it actually happens, there’s a biological thing, that piece of knowledge. The second part is learning to recognize it, notice it in yourself. And I don’t know. I know what it feels like in my body. I can’t really say, “Oh, this is what it’ll feel like in someone else’s.” I don’t know that. But I can say you probably feel it as well if you’re trying to learn this. Recognize that and then pay attention to what you do with that.

Don’t start immediately saying, oh, I’m going to change. Just pay attention to what you do. We’ve all learned from our upbringing how we … I think maybe a lot when you were kids, whatever your kid situation is, it trains you, teaches you how to deal with a lot of these reactions, responses. Maybe if you were a sports kid, you’ve got that context. If you were in a house that was maybe more difficult, you’ve got that context. If you were in a rich upbringing, a poor upbringing, whatever. As kids, we learn. But as adults, I think we sometimes don’t reexamine and relearn that stuff. And so the third piece is realize you have natural responses to that physical, that physicality. They don’t have to be those responses forever. And sometimes you have to make a specific effort. So I’m going to change how I feel. You know what? I don’t want to run out of breath anymore. When I’m in this kind of situation because I get so excited I just let it go and run away. So I’m going to notice that and I’m going to change my specific behavior to do something else. You can relearn those things.

Or when I feel this way, I’m not immediately going to jump and start throwing fists and fighting because that was what maybe I did at 14. Well, guess what? That’s an easy one because at 18, 19, 20, you can’t do that. Society stops you. But very few things are that clear. It’s usually not that line. And so as facilitators, I think we get to notice that, recognize that, use that in ourselves, but then we also have to know that others that are in the room are going through that and help or facilitate that moment, that energy. Oh, wow. You get a group of folks that are the smartest in the world at something, and then you introduce something different and they’re the dumbest in the world and you’re like, “Oh, what happened?” Well, so much changes in the room as soon as you introduce something that’s new and people are unfamiliar with. So as a facilitator, if you know that you can work with that and you can adjust to that I think in a productive way. Maybe I shouldn’t have said dumb.

Douglas Ferguson:

You really got me to thinking there and this idea that the noticing is so important and also the conversation you have with yourself around what you’re noticing. I think a lot of times once we label something and interpret it to be a certain way, that sends us into a path. And if we take that path, it may not lead us to where we want to go. So for instance, re acknowledging that, oh, what I’m feeling could be labeled as excitement, not fear, not anxiety. And so simply reframing it and having a different conversation with ourselves. And then I love that you steered it toward the group as well. So realizing that people in the room are having similar experiences or reacting to, interpreting things and helping the group renegotiate with themselves and maybe with each other, how they’re reacting to the things and making it normal to be able to have these kinds of conversations.

Nathan Hughes:

Normal. And even just flat out talking through. You’re in a room and you’re trying to do a in-person, stand-up, physical exercise. You want people to stand up and do something and people don’t want to. It’s just people won’t want to. Unless you have this magic room of people that have been doing this and they love that kind of … If you have a bunch of theater students that have been doing their own work together and it’s a troop, oh, sure. But in case you don’t have that, being able to just say, “And no one’s going to want to do this and a lot of you might be feeling it in your body right now that you don’t want to. Same as me. That’s fine. So just notice that, recognize it. Maybe use that energy to be a little bit more silly or more wild or more free with what you do up here.”

I think being able to recognize that or things as simple as, “Wow. You just said that.” In a meeting. Maybe I’m in an operations meeting, client meeting. “Wow. You just said that. You know what? I am so upset about that. I’m so angry. I want to take revenge on that. I’ve noticed that, I’m going to change that because this isn’t what … That’s just came up. And so I’m going to do something totally different.” Especially if you have a modeling role. If you are at a level where people look and maybe look to you to identify how. If you can say, “Yeah, I have this reaction and I’ve decided I’m going to do something different with it because that natural reaction is not going to serve.” Maybe that original caveman reaction of, oh, this is because it’s a saber tooth tiger that’s going to eat me and so this is why I feel, and I have that same energy, but it’s not. I don’t know. It’s a mobile app that’s slower than it should be. There’s no saber tooth tiger out there, so I’m going to do something else.

Showing people that that’s okay, and that’s normal I think that is one of the best gifts that you can give other people. Is yes, we’re all just chemical biological beings at the beginning of these, and we have all the choices in the world to go somewhere else. And in terms of facilitation, like biological facilitation, just noticing, acknowledging and speaking to that, it’s so powerful.

Douglas Ferguson:

Absolutely. Even in a room, if things get tense, oftentimes the tendency is to pretend it didn’t exist, change the subject, move on. Actually taking a moment, just like we need to notice in our bodies when we’re having a personal response, if there’s a group response or someone’s experiencing something in the room that’s created tension or uncertainty, just taking a moment to say, “I’m noticing that …” X, Y, Z. Fill in the blank. “How does everyone feel about that? What does that mean?” And allow the group to then do some group problem solving together. Turn it into a dialogue where we notice together. It can create a lot of opportunity for better understanding, better collaboration, and better empathy. Because we can really start to get at the core of like, well, why did that surface and can be really powerful. I think way better than to sweeping under the rug.

Nathan Hughes:

Oh, and the connection possibilities with that as well.

Douglas Ferguson:

Oh yeah.

Nathan Hughes:

We all know that you go through a very difficult whatever together as a team. That team is so strong. hey can individually be on the opposite sides of everything. They would never be friends, they would never hang out, they would never whatever. But you set a group of people through a very difficult situation, they start and get through that difficult situation together. Why are they so tight? Why are they so strong? I think because that creates so many situations for all of that to be stripped and for that raw reaction and response to be bare, to be visible, and to see that that’s okay. And no one’s going to kick you out of the group. No one’s going to send you to the side. Everyone’s going through that. And once you see that, you trust, you get this feeling of trust and this feeling of connection. It might take a year to develop that in a more calm, normal way. Might take two weeks to do that in a really difficult project that you’re in the trenches with someone together.

And I think one-on-one, that’s also a place where this comes in. A lot of times, oh, we’re the facilitator. You know what that means? I’m the boss. I’m in control. Oh, I’ve got to have the answer. Oh, you know what? The movie moment, Independence Day president speech. That’s what I have to end every session with. And the goosebumps and everyone’s cheer … No. It’s not true. It’s not true at all. And sometimes the best thing that I can come up with one-on-one … Maybe in a group, but one-on-one when someone’s just dropped something is telling them wow. All I can think to say is, I have this … My whole body, I feel like I’m on fire just hearing that. Tell me more. I don’t have anything else. I don’t have any insight to that. All I can do is share and connect how that has impacted me or that connection with someone else. And I don’t need anything other than that. I don’t need to give them any of the words and some logic or some solution. That’s hardly ever going to be the thing that really works. All I can do is show them, yes, I’m also human sitting on the other side of you, and this is the humanity that I am feeling and it’s on display.

Douglas Ferguson:

You talked about the team or creating opportunities for them to be more wild and free. I’m curious if you have any stories that exemplify the team rising to that occasion?

Nathan Hughes:

So in terms of a workshop, there’s a workshop that I used to do. Haven’t done it in years. And I learned it from … Oh my gosh. Where is this? Harvard Business School? They had a negotiation workshop and I went years ago. Six, seven, eight years. And the idea is you have everyone stand up, there’s some physicality of it. You have a room and you need a group and you present a question to the group. And I haven’t done this in a while, so it might be fuzzy. But basically the question is, Hey, here’s corn. Everyone knows what corn is. And is corn a vegetable? Is it a grain/ is it a fruit? And I think there’s a fourth. Whichever one you move different corners or whatever. And so the intent of this is to show the power of a group or one person in a group having a strong opinion and how that affects. And then you go through a couple rounds of debate, mini debate.

We think it’s this because. No, we think it’s that because. And the spoiler on this … I hope I’m not spoiling corn for anyone. The spoiler is there is a definition for corn that fits every single one of these things. It is a plant, it is a vegetable. The FDA will define it in all of these different ways. It is a grain versus plant, versus … So anything anyone said is right. But what happens in the room as they’re up … And their whole bodies are engaged because you have to move around and you have to come in. It’s intentional. You bring them all into the center to debate a certain thing, and then they move. And so you have detractors that move to a different corner and the whole room is like, “Ooh, look at that.” And one group usually collects the most and they’ve won. And then you just put up all the boring government pages and words that say, oh yeah, every single person is right because there’s no definitive.

And what happens? I think the energy around that and what you do up in the front is prep that group to use the group dynamic as something that motivates their behavior. So you open it up. You’re trying to break down some of these, oh, I want to stand as … No. You see someone, they give a good argument, go over there. Jump ship immediately, and this and that and do. And so that workshop or that little exercise is something that I love because it does lean so heavily into what it feels like when you are in a group doing something as a group with your brain and your body and how that energy can be so dynamic.

Douglas Ferguson:

Yeah. Even just getting people to move around.

Nathan Hughes:

It’s so hard.

Douglas Ferguson:

Is an amazing thing to do. And it can be hard as you say, but if we can get people doing it, the more they embody something that you connect to it in other ways. It comes back to the chemistry stuff we were talking about earlier.

Nathan Hughes:

There’s another thing that I have done a couple of times with certain teams. You know you … Whatever it is. It’s a meeting, it’s a group, it’s something recurring. And you’ve got the same people that show up and this is more physical space. But same group shows up, physical space, sits down. The place they sit down that very first meeting is the place they will try to sit down for the rest of their lives. Until they’re in the grave they will want that same spot. And what I’ve done, and what I’ve noticed is sometimes … I do a lot of change management. Sometimes when you do change management, the first thing you need to do is signal that it’s time for change. Changing seat is such a violation of the norm and the status quo that I believe that nothing … It’s one of the most powerful ways to signal yeah, we have to do something different and we’re starting off by, you can’t sit in that same seat. And you have to sit somewhere else. And it’s nothing. It’s so meaningless. It doesn’t matter. This is a meeting room. This isn’t someone’s desk, office, chair, whatever. It’s just we’re in this meeting room and you always sit next to her this or so that.

The physicality of it is so important at even the most minor, meaningless, smallest levels, people get so upset and so offended at that smallest … And that’s the intent. Because I’m sitting up there saying, yes, we have to dramatically change. We can never do the same thing that we just did. And it starts here with that’s why I’m on this side of the room versus that, or that’s why I’m this seat and everyone … Because that model in your head has to break it. It has to start breaking somewhere. And as facilitators, I think one thing that we need to do is look for the ways that we can drive whatever we’re trying to achieve in a room. Whatever we’re trying to help a group or a team move towards with all of the different senses. And we talk a lot about the visual side and the sound side, but the physicality is harder in a more remote world, but the physicality is just as important and sometimes more important because it is stunted in a lot of our white-collar professional lives. And so any little bit of physicality is like a gigantic bolt of lightning.

Douglas Ferguson:

Yeah. The seats a fascinating thing. There’s a strong sense of identity when it comes to where you’re sitting. There’s a reason why people bring their photos of their family and decorate their little area. It’s their little slice of the office that they’ve planted a flag on. But there are other ways that identity shows up and it has a big impact on change management because if people have created some roots around their identity in this place, that needs to shift now because there’s some change coming that can be really scary for folks. They feel like they’re having to sacrifice that piece of their identity or they’re getting uprooted. I’m curious how much you’ve noticed these things or if you have some interesting facilitation, style tactics that help with people as they’re struggling with that identity shift.

Nathan Hughes:

That’s a good question. That’s a big one. Because you’re right. It is fundamental to change management. If you’re doing something that’s worth a change management process, it probably means it’s big enough that it’s important and it counts in some way. It might count towards titles or promotions or raises or something performance. And it is responsible for results that matter. Why would you do a change management process to change something that doesn’t matter? And so knowing that you’ve got to prepare yourself for that. There are a couple of things that I see. And one is getting down to the bare metal in terms of transparency around what you’re trying to achieve. I think what I’ve learned is it’s seldom worth spending a lot of time talking about why the old thing needs to change. But sometimes that’s the trap. You feel like, oh, I’m going to explain why the old thing didn’t work or was bad or this or that. And all you’re doing is re-centering and focusing on and making sure that that old thing is still the center of attention.And so what I’ve learned is I have to do all of that work, but only on the new stuff. Here’s why. Here’s what we’re going … Here’s where we’re … And I think in terms of change management, you never rely on someone just knowing.

So whenever I’m doing a change management process, I’m listening in my head and things I’m writing. Did I use just? Oh, it’s just this. Oh, that’s a warning. Simply. Oh, that’s a warning. I’m assuming. Any assumption obviously is going to be wrong because any group is going to have every one of those beliefs and your assumptions in a change management process become deviations or invalidations of identity as minor or as innocent as you think they are. You are insulting someone if you accidentally invalidate their identity.

And so I’m looking for places where I’m assuming it’s going to be simple or obvious, straightforward. It’s just going to be that. I’m looking for that kind of thing. And I need to keep painting a picture of here’s why and what we’re doing. Here’s what we’re trying to achieve, here’s what we’re trying to change for this result. And the result is very important. We want to make this thing happen this way. And showing how that world might look when that change has happened is super important. So what is my role? What is my job? I’m this and you’re going to make this change in how we do … I don’t know. I’m a project manager. I’m going to make this change in how we price projects. How do I … Okay. I know that we price projects wrong, but it’s still a way that I know and I’m comfortable with. What am I doing in detail? And that’s so hard because a lot of times you don’t know yet. You’ve got to go through the change manager, but you have to be able to talk through it. You have to be able to show this.

And then I think every change management process needs to have a very dedicated and intentional mechanism to assign out parts of that change management process to the actual folks that are impacted. We need this result. I need you to figure out how this thing works as part of that.

Douglas Ferguson:

That’s so key.

Nathan Hughes:

And this other person, you or this role, I need you to figure out how we get to … You know what? The change is we need to go from 63 over here to 92. That part of it, please figure out how to do that. Also, I’m going to tell the organization, you’re in charge of doing that. I’m going to rally up all the support you need because you’re not operating on your scale, you’re operating on a strategic scale, not an individual scale. So people need to support you and people need to and it’s visible. I need you to do this work. And when that happens, I am validating and judging it based on does it get me to the result? I’m trying my damnedest to get rid of that oh, I’m in charge. So let me look at how you’re actually doing it and give you all the judgment there. I’m trying not to do that. Now I’ll look at it and if I know it won’t work for some reason, I might try to carefully … oh, this is … Yes that. Whatever. But a lot of times, I would say more often than not, that’s not the problem. Is the actual change … We want to get to this result, let me look at how that’s working and involving folks very intentionally and specifically in getting to the … Do I do that all the time? No.

Douglas Ferguson:

That plays a role too in the everyday facilitation stuff. Because if we’re not clear on the results we’re seeking, then people can’t step in with novel ideas of how to shape the future and they’re just slaves to whatever vision or whatever tactics you have already laid out.

Nathan Hughes:

Exactly.

Douglas Ferguson:

And that’s tiring. Anyone who’s leading them that way must be exhausted all the time.

Nathan Hughes:

Yeah. I have come across a couple and I just watch in awe. Like, wow, you have the energy to really direct and mandate all 90 little details of … Okay. Bless you for that, but I could never even comprehend that. That’s so much work. And you’re right, it’s only going to be as good as that person. And a lot of times that person is pretty good. They’re in that position because they were pretty good. But no one person is pretty good forever and no one person’s pretty good is always better than a few people’s innovation and best. And so you’ve got to be willing to take that risk in opening that up in order to get better results.

Douglas Ferguson:

I couldn’t agree more. And we could carry this conversation on for a very long time. It’s been really fine, but we do have to bring it to a close here. And as we wrap up, there’s a couple of things that I’d love to hear your thoughts on. One is you’ve got this unique background as a technology leader, as someone who’s made these pivots from purely creating, developing, launching technical products and services to thinking about people ops and then all this change management work. And so I’m curious what advice you might have for technology leaders and just this importance of adaptive leadership and facilitation. And also maybe just a final thought. So what advice do you have for other technical leaders and then how do you want to leave our listeners today?

Nathan Hughes:

So for other technology folks that are maybe like me directly … I used to work for a living writing code and now I no longer do that. I don’t know if I have advice, but the thing that I will acknowledge is you’re exactly right. You’re absolutely right. It was so much fun writing code and it was so satisfying to have that direct feedback that I did a day’s worth of work and did something for real and now I can see it. At the end of the day, something has changed. It is so different and I will say so much more difficult to find value or find satisfaction as you get away from that direct one-on-one. So there’s an acknowledgement that I’m going to offer up that you’re exactly right. It was a lot easier and sometimes a lot more directly fun to be that.

And so if you want to expand up and out in more management or more leadership or more strategy or more whatever it’s called in your world, you’ve got to do two things. One, you have to readjust and understand how you’re going to find satisfaction and value out of much less direct and much more abstract results. And how are you going to find that personal satisfaction when you can’t take responsibility for anything really that’s going on because it’s a team that did it, or it’s these other folks that are … It’s this or it’s this process running and etc. So there’s that.

And then the second bit is fill that gap of direct creation with something. Anything. You need a hobby. If you’re a direct technology person moving into leadership management, you better get yourself a hobby where you can be a direct builder of something else. And I don’t care if it’s a hobby, you’re still in technology or it’s a hobby … Woodworking is mine. Or it’s a hobby … Something. You’ve got to keep and create for yourself a way to directly contribute so you can have that little selfish bit of satisfaction of your thing that you do. And also continue to work on how do I value and how do I enjoy the larger, less directed work that I am achieving results in. So that’s what I would say if you’re in my spot and that’s what I’ve learned for me.

Douglas Ferguson:

Wise words.

Nathan Hughes:

I think a final thought is you can change how you react and respond to this biology. Like this point that we were talking about, my final thought is I think it is possibly the most powerful thing you can do to rewire and retrain your body and your brain to abandon the ways that you’ve learned in the past as a child or whatever … All of us survived childhood. None of us get through child. We all survived childhood. So the way that we survived childhood, retraining yourself to use those exact same responses. Take those skills, take those strengths forward, but then decide how you want those to be in your actual professional world, your adult world, your different in your non-child world. My final thought is there’s nothing more powerful and satisfying than being able to do that. And you’ll be doing it forever. You never get to stop doing that, but that’d be my final thought.

Douglas Ferguson:

That sounds like a worthwhile journey. Thanks for being on the show, Nate. I really appreciate it.

Nathan Hughes:

Thank you. This was fun.

Douglas Ferguson:

Thanks for joining me for another episode of the Facilitation Lab podcast. If you enjoyed the episode, please leave us a review and be sure to subscribe and receive updates when new episodes are released. We love listener tales and invite you to share your facilitation stories. Send them to us on LinkedIn or via email. If you want to know more. Head over to our blog or I post weekly articles and resources about facilitation, team dynamics and collaboration. Voltagecontrol.com.